PPSh-41 Recoil

[arnold]

about the waving:
there are 2 different things:
1. "camara moving" that means that ur screen moves without moving ur mouse. this will happen when u are out of stramina or when u are in ironsightmode to long. i have no problem with this. i called this sway.
2. model waving around while the camara is not moving. just rest ur weapon on something and look at the model. while the screen is not moving, ur model is moving up and down. that is what i meant with waving. some guns have a lot of it some have nearly no. semis have a lot, bolts nearly no. clearly a ballance issue here. but the smgs are strange. ppd is not moving, while ppsh is moving alot.

what i was saying is: add sway (1.) to standing unsupported position to make popup and shoot more difficult. ok this point was offtopic. i just wanted to point out that irl the difference between standing and kneeing accurate shots is big, while fireing fullauto from standing or kneeing is not so different. in game its the other way around.

and now something about the bursts:
irl short bursts are accurate, because they are fired before the gun can move. especially short bursts from heavy very fast shooting guns are extremly close, because the weapon does nearly not move between the shots. short mg42 bursts very very accurate because of this. its all about mass inertia.

in game it seems to be just a fixed recoilvalue for every shot with a random part to the side. the result is that bursts are not really accurate. to fire a accurate burst ingame u have to start to move ur mouse down directly after the first shot, and u have to pray that the random horizontal part of the recoil is not to big.

imo the whole recoilsystem needs a remake, but this will not happen. i just hope for a bit less recoil while standing, because it would help gameplay.

im not sure, but i think that this burst issue was better back in the late mod days. short ppsh or mg42 burste were more accurate, while fireing real fullauto was not so different if i remember correctly.

mfg Arnold

 

[Reddog]

The pop up rifleman thing has been a problem about since the old mod days, sure it's better now (yetch remember 2.0 before we had any sway?!!?!?!) but still is prevalent.

There's a few ways you could get around it;

- The hard and more realistic way would be to add collision to the guns, that way you can't be crouched right against cover with your gun shouldered ready to stand up and fire.

- The easy way would be to make the weapon 'destabilize' as you switch postures with it shouldered. For example you go to from crouch to standing and the weapons sights go out of alignment to be lined up shortly after you are standing. I'd also like to see this type of thing when rapidly turning, you can realistically move your trunk comfortably about 160 degrees or so with a rifle shouldered and aimed, anywhere past that you have to shift your stance, however you can do it slowly and maintain your sight picture. You could reflect this in game by only allowing you to do a full 360 turn with the sights aligned at a certain speed, you go any faster and they are thrown out until you slow or stop, COD actually did this and it was one of the (few) things it got right with weapon handling. It would eliminate insta-spin snap shooting.

Personally I'd like to see both things happen in game and also more sway when standing and aiming, or at least the sway coming on more rapidly (eg. less of a grace period with no sway).

 

[Solo4114]

Arnold,

I think I understand what you were getting at now, and that makes sense.

I'm not sure if the current system uses a fixed value for recoil, though. Note that I distinguish between recoil (rearward movement and/or upward movement as barrel climb) and barrel SWAY, which exists for all weapons (as you said).

I agree that barrel SWAY should be more pronounced with the heavier weapons, and less pronounced with the lighter ones. But recoil and barrel CLIMB should be, in general, way more pronounced with a lighter weapon, depending on things like the caliber, whether it's rested/braced/deployed, and rate of fire.

Barrel sway should exist in general all the time, but should increase or decrease due to resting and stamina. To an extent, it should also be affected by recoil/climb.

Recoil/climb itself, however, should have a fixed value that gets ADDED per shot, but that value DEGRADES gradually. The basic theory being that your first few shots don't add as much recoil as your last few shots. So, the more shots you fire, the longer it takes you to recover, but shorter bursts are more controllable.

IF that's not how things work currently (and for some reason, I seem to recall the devs saying it IS how things work, although I may be hallucinating), then I think it'd be a better way to do it, if it wouldn't be a coding/processor nightmare.

 

[LordKhaine]

in game it seems to be just a fixed recoilvalue for every shot with a random part to the side. the result is that bursts are not really accurate.

Indeed. On these recoil threads you always get a few people saying "oh it's easy, just fire in bursts". You can tell these people don't play the game very much. From my experience it's usually far easier to NOT burst fire.

Seems the same people defending the current SMG recoil were the ones defending the recoil of the MG42 a while ago. It was clearly too much, and was eventually tweaked to the more realistic level we have now. And the game benefitted hugely from it. I'm sure if recoil were fixed in the same way for the smg's, the game would also benefit from that.

 

[Hyperion2010]

SheepDip said it. Its not the upward recoil, its the side to side, and this is true for ALL the smgs and the stg44. The side to side makes it much harder to compensate for because no one can move their mouse that quickly back and forth in the correct direction with they can do something like that IRL.

 

[arnold]

ok i did some testing now in a practice match with the ppsh. i looked at the decals to understand how it works:
the groupings where ok. the gun is too inaccurate and the recoil is a little too strong, but the first 2 rounds are relative close together. its even possible to fire single rounds when u tap the mousebutton.

but now the strange thing:
i did the same on an internet server with 70 ping and maybe 5 players.
singlefireing seems to be impossible. if u tap the mousebutton short, there simply is no decal. dont know if the server recognices the shot and often even 2 round bursts did not show decals, or only one. when it showed decals the groupings were often worse than in the practice match.

did the same test with the mg42 in practice game and online and it showed the same result:
practice bursts where accurate and grouping was thight. it was possible to fire 2 round bursts, and even sigle shots. tried the same online and this extrem short bursts did not show decals, or very bad grouping. the fast shooting guns seem to be wired online, especially when u try to fire them in short bursts. the shots seemed to be far less accurate, judged by the decals.

lag is no argument here, because the connection was better than in nearly every standard online match because of low playercount. my fps where also at a solid 45 online and offline.

maybe someone else could try this. i would also like to know if the short bursts get lost completly or if there is just a bug that does not show me decals or that shows me decals at the wrong places.+

mfg Arnold

 

[Phoenix-D]

Recoil definitely increases when FPS goes down- at least until the no-recoil bug is fixed.

IMO the PPsH at high FPS is fine, but once it starts dropping it can become uncontrollable. Fix THAT and you'd fix the issue, I think.

 

[Von Siro]

MP 40 Recoil should be lessened too

MP 40 Recoil should be lessened too

Please refer to my post on another thread. The MP40 recoil is far too much from the real weapon.

 

[melipone]

The guns fine imo..think of the view like a camera is strapped onto the top of a real smg..its looks exaggerated because our view moves with every movement of the gun. Post here a video of a PPSh with a camera strapped to it so we can see all the movements like it is ingame and we can compare then. Never actually seen a video of someone shooting full auto at a target and seeing where the shots land either.

From a gameplay perspective i'd much rather have a slightly less realistic gun but better gameplay than ultra realism and have less fun personally.

Also I wonder if all the people talking about how unrealistic the gun is would be happy to have realistic amounts per map?
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[zeep]

The recoil is insane and on low fps pc's it's even more uncontrollable.. It's not going to be changed though. Add to that the terrible conefire and there you go, unusable weapon unless you're 2 inches away from the target.

The devs should be forced to play with smg's for a month (on low fps pc's), maybe then they could finally see why using them sucks.

Ramm is stubborn and adamant. He claims that he posesses most of RO weapons and so he knows best. He must have very weak arms then if he finds the recoil realistic.

Recoil definitely increases when FPS goes down- at least until the no-recoil bug is fixed.

IMO the PPsH at high FPS is fine, but once it starts dropping it can become uncontrollable. Fix THAT and you'd fix the issue, I think.

My guess too.

 

[melipone]

People have complained about the recoil since the first build of retail, well before the low fps bug fix came in, which was actually there to fix a bug that gave you very low recoil if you had too low fps. I'd rather have a bug that makes the game harder for people with very old pc's than something that can be emulated or exploited by anyone to give themselves an advantage - I guess dodgy players could artificially slow their pc's down in the old version to give themselves no recoil. Anyway its the opposite now in most cases - low fps = increased recoil to combat the bug..as long as you have at least 30fps you should be fine..my 4 year old pc that I upgraded late last year only ever got the recoil bug on lyskrovy in certain areas when my fps went right down. Just turn your graphics settings to low.

Thats a bug anyway and even if they tweaked that people would still complain about the recoil..for me I have no problem with it..I play RO because it is difficult compared to other games to use the weapons effectively.
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[Plaid13]

I doubt they will ever fix the recoil to make them realistic but.. it would be nice if they would fix the bug with the frame rate or whatever to make the recoil consistent. Sometimes the recoil can be almost realisitc and controlable other times its 3 shots and your looking at the sky. What bugs me the most is how the smgs have more recoil then the rifles while standing upright... it just makes no sense at all. The smg was designed to be a easy to control easy to use weapon and its the exact opposite in the game.

 

[Kipper]

Also I wonder if all the people talking about how unrealistic the gun is would be happy to have realistic amounts per map?

It's not like every Russian was armed with a PPSh. There were SMG companies, yes, but we have that in game already on Lyes Krovy.

I honestly don't care if the game is harder for me because some weapon or tank or what have you suddenly becomes insanely powerful if made realistic. I'm playing this game because I don't like artificial balancing and desire realism. If I wanted bull**** I'd play Medal of Honor.

 

[zeep]

It's not like every Russian was armed with a PPSh. There were SMG companies, yes, but we have that in game already on Lyes Krovy.

I honestly don't care if the game is harder for me because some weapon or tank or what have you suddenly becomes insanely powerful if made realistic. I'm playing this game because I don't like artificial balancing and desire realism. If I wanted bull**** I'd play Medal of Honor.

Well, if you want more (off topic) realism how about adding weapon collision then too? It certainly would 'scare' half of RO's community away. A weapon colliding with objects in-game, no more being able to sidestep from behind a wall with weapon raised etc . And why stop there? Where's the bullet penetration? Where's the 3D voices?

Or is it not like every Russian had that?

I'm tired of you people advocating realistic loadouts and historically correctness. I bet more than 50% of the people playing RO who claim to love its realism would ***** and moan if RO was simulating more realism.

 

[Oldih]

It's not like every Russian was armed with a PPSh. There were SMG companies, yes, but we have that in game already on Lyes Krovy.

Not a "realistic" one, for good reasons

 

[Trendkill]

Well, if you want more (off topic) realism how about adding weapon collision then too? It certainly would 'scare' half of RO's community away. A weapon colliding with objects in-game, no more being able to sidestep from behind a wall with weapon raised etc . And why stop there? Where's the bullet penetration? Where's the 3D voices?

I agree with bullet penetration and 3D voices and sure gun collision may help stop pop-up riflemen but wouldn't it also stop you from leaning from behind cover?

 

[Zbojnik]

Everyone keeps mentioning that the PPSh will be unbalanced if the accuracy is fixed. Not technically. You make up for the increase in accuracy by replacing the drum magazines with the 35 round banana mags. The weapon will be accurate as it should be, but can't be used as an MG due to lack of ammo.

 

[Kipper]

Well, if you want more (off topic) realism how about adding weapon collision then too? It certainly would 'scare' half of RO's community away. A weapon colliding with objects in-game, no more being able to sidestep from behind a wall with weapon raised etc . And why stop there? Where's the bullet penetration? Where's the 3D voices?

Or is it not like every Russian had that?

I'm tired of you people advocating realistic loadouts and historically correctness. I bet more than 50% of the people playing RO who claim to love its realism would ***** and moan if RO was simulating more realism.

I've advocated all of that for this game for a very long time.

 

[zeep]

I've advocated all of that for this game for a very long time.

Too bad the devs seem only to respond to 'This game is great!' threads. Which is understandable, and is deserved, but it doesn't mean 'This game is perfect! Don't change a thing!'.

Anyway Kipper, don't take my post personal, it's just me voicing my frustration(s) with this game.

 

[Murphy]

Everyone keeps mentioning that the PPSh will be unbalanced if the accuracy is fixed. Not technically. You make up for the increase in accuracy by replacing the drum magazines with the 35 round banana mags. The weapon will be accurate as it should be, but can't be used as an MG due to lack of ammo.

We don't need balanced weapons!
Its not like in UT2004 where someone with a Biorifle should be as dangerous as someone with a Rocketlauncher and if he is not balancing fixes have to be made.
The balance in RO isn't a man-with-a-gun vs. man-with-a-gun balance, but a team vs. team balance. So if there is a super strong weapon, it is simply limited so only one or two people per team can take it.

If the ppsh mutates to some sort of mini-mg as soon as the recoil is lowered, so be it. We want the weapons to be realistic. Not balanced. If this move really throws off the balance so the russian side is suddenly much stonger than the German one, then the ppsh has to be limited further, or the Russian reinforcement points have to lowered, or the timelimits for the maps have to be changed.
There are a number of ossible balancing methods, but giving weapons anything but real world stats shouldn't be among them.