• Please make sure you are familiar with the forum rules. You can find them here: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.2334636/

Tactics On assaulting: feasible vs. suicidal.

My point exactly, Karl. Psychology, especially battlefield psychology, is way too complex to be accurately represented in a video game.
I'd like to disagree to this to a point - the game series Close Combat represents battlefield psychology very well.
As a few examples :
-I order my rifle team to attack a building holding an enemy MG42. The leader gets killed, and this demorilizes the troops, who drop to the ground and start crawling. Then a few more soldiers are killed by the MG. Now there are only two soldiers left. One runs away, to the friendly side of the map, where the rest of my troops are. The other one goes berzerk, and charges the MG position. Sometimes troops will still react to orders when under fire, and sometimes they will just sit there, run away, go bezerk or surrender.
-I order an MG team to attack the enemy infantry. They shoot well, killing/incapacitating a few enemy soldiers. However, a tank then begins to shoot at the MG team with its own machine guns. The MG team begins to shoot less accurately, and less often, with the soldiers putting their heads down or firing random, badly aimed shots. Then the tank shoot a HE round at the MG team. One goes bezerk, charging the tank with his submachine gun. The other soldiers in the team just sit there, dazed. The enemy sends his infantry in an attack towards the team, and once the enemy gets close, the team surrenders.
I'd like to add that soldiers going bezerk in-game is not very likely (like in real life), it just happens sometimes. However, the two examples I have written did include soldiers going bezerk.
 
Upvote 0
I'd like to disagree to this to a point - the game series Close Combat represents battlefield psychology very well.
As a few examples :
-I order my rifle team to attack a building holding an enemy MG42. The leader gets killed, and this demorilizes the troops, who drop to the ground and start crawling. Then a few more soldiers are killed by the MG. Now there are only two soldiers left. One runs away, to the friendly side of the map, where the rest of my troops are. The other one goes berzerk, and charges the MG position. Sometimes troops will still react to orders when under fire, and sometimes they will just sit there, run away, go bezerk or surrender.
-I order an MG team to attack the enemy infantry. They shoot well, killing/incapacitating a few enemy soldiers. However, a tank then begins to shoot at the MG team with its own machine guns. The MG team begins to shoot less accurately, and less often, with the soldiers putting their heads down or firing random, badly aimed shots. Then the tank shoot a HE round at the MG team. One goes bezerk, charging the tank with his submachine gun. The other soldiers in the team just sit there, dazed. The enemy sends his infantry in an attack towards the team, and once the enemy gets close, the team surrenders.
I'd like to add that soldiers going bezerk in-game is not very likely (like in real life), it just happens sometimes. However, the two examples I have written did include soldiers going bezerk.
That's all down to unit AI though, a game where real people play the soldiers (Red Orchestra) they can be as heroic or cowardly as the player wants them to be.
 
Upvote 0
That's all down to unit AI though, a game where real people play the soldiers (Red Orchestra) they can be as heroic or cowardly as the player wants them to be.

More like everyone is hopped up on PCP.

Some more than others, but everyone plays like they are a crazed maniac that can survive a hail of bullets and of course run in a few moments even if you shoot them in the knee caps.

I didn't know those kind of drugs were available to both the Germans and Soviets ;)
 
Upvote 0
More like everyone is hopped up on PCP.

Some more than others, but everyone plays like they are a crazed maniac that can survive a hail of bullets and of course run in a few moments even if you shoot them in the knee caps.

I didn't know those kind of drugs were available to both the Germans and Soviets ;)

Maybe so, but as I said, we can't replicate the psychological impact of a battlefield on a player. No matter WHAT happens in the game, we CAN survive the hail of video game bullets and there's no way around that. Players will ALWAYS be less careful with their virtual lives than they would with their actual lives.

So maybe players do run around like they're high on angel dust, but what do you expect? They don't have anything vital at stake -- just their entertainment. Besides, who's to say that the players in those situations WOULDN'T react like that? We can speculate all we want, but it won't do us any good. Even on a "one life to live" server, players would still be more reckless than they would in rea life.


As for the bit about Close Combat, as I recall, that's an RTS game where you're directing the actions of AI troops. That's radically different from an avatar in an FPS game. Moreover, the scenarios described may sound good to me or Karabiner98k, but that's just because it jives with our rough sense of what OUGHT to happen on a battlefield. Again, though, it's all down to psychology there, not physiology.

The problem with imposing psychological limitations on players in an FPS is that they'll sit there and say "That's BS. In real life I'd have done XYZ instead." It's easy to argue back and forth about how you'd psychologically react to a given situation. It's not so easy to argue about, say, how steady your aim would be if you took a flesh wound to the arm. We can argue about how scared we'd be and how we'd react to 81mm mortar shells blowing up around us. Charge forward just to get the hell out of the barrage? Duck down and pray to whatever god(s) we believed in? Piss our pants? All of the above in varying orders? We can't argue about whether we'd still be able to hear afterwards (or at least have a lot less to argue about).

With an RTS or a turn based game (IE: Steel Panthers: World at War models suppression and the effect of rallying by a superior officer), you're not directly in control of the troops. They aren't actually YOU in a sense. With an FPS game, YOU are the soldier. You control every action that he performs, to the extent the engine lets you. Thus, the issue is not how would "the average person" react, but rather how would YOU react. And that's all debatable, and with a fairly wide range of responses, too. Plus, it's HIGHLY contextual.

Consider the example of watching your buddy get blown away in the foxhole next to you. Your options are: (A) crap your pants, (B) run screaming from the foxhole away from the enemy, or (C) fix your bayonet and charge screaming at the enemy, hell bent on killing every last one of them. Which do you do? Well, that depends. How close were you and your buddy? Is the barrage just ending or is it still going non-stop? Has your unit suffered tons of casualties lately? How good is the Lt. in charge of your platoon? Or did he get blown up too, and the only guy left in charge is the screw-up sergeant you wouldn't trust with latrine duty? How long have you been fighting the war? Are you a recent replacement/FNG or a seasoned veteran?


ALL of that can come into play as far as how you react. ALL of it is open to broad debate, and NONE of it can be effectively modeled in the game without having people on either side (or even both sides) of the issue call "BS!!" By contrast, anyone who gets shot in the foot is probably gonna limp or at least hop for a bit. They'll flinch and shut their eyes when a grenade goes off next to them, too. You'll find a LOT more consensus on those kinds of issues than you will on psychological ones.
 
Upvote 0
i was the other way around, coming from twitch shooters to RO, i started by getting in there and getting dirty zerg style and quickly mooved to a more reserved player. guaranteed i am still ready to rush the cap when necessary, but when i can i prefer to take my time getting there;however, war dosent always allow for the best way. what ticks me off is the zerg only players who rush all the time....
 
Upvote 0
They're annoying, yeah, but that's just a style of gameplay. RO already does about as much as I think it can safely do to discourage that kind of behavior, but as long as folks can sometimes get lucky with it, some people will simply always use that approach to gameplay.

The other thing that can stem this is maps being designed differently. It's a lot more nerve wracking to zerg your way through enemy fire when you're playing on a non-urban map with limited cover. Ever try charging from the Outpost to the First Line on Berezina as an assault trooper on foot? I think I've actually made it to the line maybe twice doing that. Every other time I've been killed. It just doesn't work, really. There's too much open ground to get across and not enough effective cover.
 
Upvote 0
:rolleyes:

What ticks me off is players who have too much fear of death.
Basovka, Kaukasus, Tula and other assualt maps are so much fun when nobody attacks...:rolleyes:

Ugh I was playing on Zhit-revenge yesterday as the sniper. There were about 6-7 people wanting to be my buddy helping me suppress the axis sniper hole after I turned that into a death trap. I then left that spot to cover the alley and my "buddies" immediately got shot from the location they were "helping" me cover.
 
Upvote 0
Just to add to what some people have already said, how many of you would be willing to see more realistic reactions to the combat enviroment which is gauged by the time you have been on the battlefield for (prehaps for one game, or even one life) eg when you first spawn at the start various ranks are given diffrent levels of battle experience. So you could expect the highest ranks to act more methodical and calculated IE if a machine gun opens up they are not automatically diving for cover as a riflemen conscript would. To make the system pay dividence, I theorise that the lower ranks in real life would recieve more combat experience over time so that eventually they can attain a greater amount of "battle experience" or at least gain it quicker so that by the end of a game you have the lower ranks being able to ignore the instinct to go for cover or freeze with fear. I dont believe that this will be implemented but just on a theoretical level who would enjoy this system?

3rd post be nice!
 
Upvote 0
I try to zerg as little as possible. First of all, with every zerging, you will probably run out of reinforcements fairly quickly. Secondly, I enjoy trying to stay alive and getting as many kills as I can. That said, you should always remember that you're just another grunt in the battle, so if you should die, it's not that big of a deal. But on the other side of the coin, you can be the one to possibly determine whether or not your team wins the round, in whatever manner that may be.
 
Upvote 0
Real soldiers would often bunch up instinctively in combat, much of training and officer's time was spent getting the soldiers spread out. We could even simulate this in RO by largely increasing suppression if your all alone, proximity too your teammates lowering it to normal. Maybe having the Squad Leader near will lower suppression.
 
Upvote 0
Hey guys, I'm just a new guy but an old new guy as well :D

As you debate back and forth over this and the other dozen similar topics I have already spotted please remember one thing for me.

Remember what it was like when you first played RO.

Remember that some players have never played a realism/sim type shooter.

Remember the learning curve in this game.

And imagine what it would have felt like if on top of getting raped and brutalised if you also had to put up with weird stuff like "now my avatar drops his weapon and runs back to spawn" or "cowers in his foxhole". Imagine if while you were working so hard to get up to speed that your spawn times get longer or you just run out of lives in the first 3 minutes of a 15 minute match.

Who is going to push through that?

How will you ever get new players?

What will happen and who will develope the next realism FPS if this one tanks after receiving excellent dev support and response while giving the players the realism they crave?

The old saying is still true, "Be carefull what you wish for, you might get it?":cool:
 
Upvote 0
A team that shoots it way onto an objective as a team will nine times out of ten win out against one made up of Rambos that rush and spray madly and hope to get to the cap for personal glory.

It's true that the fact you are going to re-spawn removes any real fear of death for yourself. But the fact remains that if you are off re-spawning somewhere your weapon is not on the line helping out your team mates.

Play as a team and you are assaulting when you advance. Play as an individual and you are suiciding as you advance.
 
Upvote 0
Hello, i have only read page one and really think it's an interesting thread i will come back to later, so i dont know if anyone has said this, but my idea to stop so much reckless playing, would be to hurt the point whores.

The idea is, change the points for a kill to 2, and then deduct 1 point for every time you die inside 2 minutes. Not going below 0 though as that would be unfair. Maybe people would take care more to stay alive.

I think i personally am a somewhere in between style player. In fact, i can spawn and run n gun one minute, and then the next mintue i will turn all thoughtful and tactical. I'm also a good team player when i match up with someone and we have similar thoughts going on. I'm not as good with the rifles as the SMG's, but i'm excellent with an MG. I love to assault but not for points, just for the rush. When my mind is on the mission i can stay alive for 10 minutes, moving position and taking out soldiers and moving again, taking cover when needed etc But when im not in the mission i could be killed every minute.
 
Upvote 0