Tactics On assaulting: feasible vs. suicidal.

[Solo4114]

None of what you guys have described, is actual "fear of death." No one is afraid of dying in a video game. They're afraid of negative consequences in the game, sure, but that's not actual fear of death.

When people talk about wanting "fear of death" I view it as code for one of two things. At the most basic level, it means "I want the game to be exciting and I want my adrenaline pumping when I'm playing." RO's already got that. I've had plenty of experiences in-game like the ones you guys have mentioned, where I'm racing to get to a cap zone and we've almost got it. I've had similar experiences in other games where I came around the corner and had an "OH CRAP!!" moment because I just ran into [insert surprising and powerful badguy here].

I think people also use "fear of death" as shorthand for "I want the game to be immersive and feel realistic in terms of what I think is realism." And that's where the problems come in because my sense of what's realistic is not your sense of what's realistic, and neither party's sense of realism is actual objective realism. No matter what is coded as "realistic", it's going to be someone's perception of that. Thus, ANY attempt at "realism" in a video game is necessarily colored by what a particular person thinks is "realistic."

When it comes to things like impacting how the avatar operates, psychological factors such as "fear" are a mistake to implement. I mean, let's say they did implement "fear" in the game. Are they going to implement "rage", too? How about "confusion"?

"Fear" hits people differently in different circumstances and is extremely dependent upon both the situation and the person. For example, I could see my buddy in a foxhole not 15 feet from mine get blown into a fine red mist by a mortar round. What happens next? Am I crazed with fear or suddenly suicidally brave because I want revenge? When I'm crazed with fear, do I stay frozen in one spot, or completely lose control of my senses and start running the hell away? When I'm suicidally brave, does my aim shake because there's so much adrenaline pumping through me that I can't hold still, or am I so out of myself that I become a perfect killing machine? Or are there other behaviors that you'd see from someone under those same circumstances that I haven't listed here?

Any answer you give is simply YOUR perception of what would happen, and is likely colored by your own experiences and psychological makeup, and may not be the same as someone else's answer. And NONE of that should be represented by videogame mechanics. On the other hand, physiological effects (IE: being dazed by an artillery shell that goes off near you) are different. Getting winded, that's legitimate. Slowing down because a bullet grazed your leg and now you're limping a bit, that's legitimate too. But fear and other psychological factors should stay out of video games and be left to the players and their own experiences.

 

[BuD_GrimReaper]

Play your character as if you're in an MMO then now that its been mentioned.

If you want your guy to poop his pants in a foxholes, then 'RP' it. Stay in that hole for a minute without looking over the edge while your mates are dieing all around you and you can hear the russians talking just over that hill.
I mean I'd have fun doing it occasionally but usually I'll try to be the better example and motivate those pantscrappers to get up and defend their motherland!

To each his own but lets not enforce it through game mechanics please, there is just no way of balancing it and justifying it.

 

[Solo4114]

That's EXACTLY what I'm saying. If folks want immersion, we can make the environment as immersive as possible, and implement purely physiological reactions to the environment (IE: I get shot in the leg, I move slower). But psychological aspects should be left out of the game. That's up to the player. And just to be clear, in general, I'm against intrusive game mechanics. I dislike these primarily due to how close they come to "crosshairs" in terms of the random aspects of the game getting in the way of player skill.

 

[Jank]

That reminds me of two things I liked from the old Firearms mod for Half-Life, which I think more FPS games need.

1) Limping when you get legged.

2) A battlecry.

Keep sound mods flowing, not being used to the sounds translates into greater immersion.

 

[K Rohm]

My two pfennig's worth on this:

IMHO, the major detractors from the elusive 'total immersion experience' are a) respawning, and b) the scoreboard. HOWEVER, these are to a certain extent necessary evils, to wit:

Respawning: Unless you're in a dedicated clan/unit match with very specific Rules of Engagement and such you're not going to find many who will support the idea of One Man= One Life. Perhaps some might opt for 'Three Strikes and Out', but by and large you're dealing with pubbers who are more interested (no offense intended) racking up huge personal scores regardless of the win/loss for the team in general.

As an adjunct to this, of course, we have the current bugbear of the 'lack of fear of death' which we are never truly going to get rid of. NOW (this idea was floated in an IL2 Sturmovik forum) what if- and this is a BIG WHAT IF- a server invited X number of players/clans/units to a dedicated fight...but required all players to ante up, say, ten/twenty bucks to play? The reason being, of course, is that each time you die, you lose a dollar/five dollars. Instead of engendering the 'fear of death' we tie it in to a loss of cash! Naturally, this would work only if there were people playing with the proper attitude and such- and naturally only those people who were confident in their own abilities would enter anyway- a sort of 'RO Superbowl' of sorts. Of course, the ultimate result is that the server keeps X percent of the proceeds, while the top player/unit/clan splits the rest.

Enough of that idea- I know it's bound to bring in the hate mail!

Scoreboard: Remove the scoreboard, and you remove the entire reason for (for many players) even being in the field in the first place. Yes, I know- teamwork and comradeship and all that. It just doesn't hold for the vast majority of pubbers out there who in all likelihood have no idea who the people on their team are, and if they did probably wouldn't care as long as THEY were racking up scores. There's no scoreboard in Real Life, you say- and quite right. Unless the scoring were altered (a mod perhaps) to reflect ONLY a win/loss for the entire team as opposed to individual statistics, it's always going to be a race to see who takes top score.

As a disclaimer, I freely admit I've fallen into this mode of thinking myself on more than one occasion- usually it happened when I was in a server where NOT ONE PERSON was talking and I might as well have been taking on the enemy single-handed for all the cooperation (or lack thereof) going on. In that case, it becomes more of a 'game' instead of a 'total immersion combat simulator' and personal scores take on a greater value if for no other reason than virtual bragging rights.

Now, I also admit that I've 'taken a dive' for my unit on more than one occasion- offering myself and my tank as bait so another teammate or two could get a shot off at a previously hidden enemy tank or what have you. Did I get points for it? No, of course not, but in the end- to me- the important thing was to have that enemy removed so my team/unit could advance and take the field. In that case, it didn't matter what the scoreboard read on an individual level.

In summary: Unless you're on a very well organized private server you're not going to get past the respawning issue, so we will simply have to learn to live with it. Unless you've got a bunch of truly dedicated team players, the scoreboard is going to be the main focus of the vast majority of pubbers.

 

[K Rohm]

That's EXACTLY what I'm saying. If folks want immersion, we can make the environment as immersive as possible, and implement purely physiological reactions to the environment (IE: I get shot in the leg, I move slower). But psychological aspects should be left out of the game. That's up to the player. And just to be clear, in general, I'm against intrusive game mechanics. I dislike these primarily due to how close they come to "crosshairs" in terms of the random aspects of the game getting in the way of player skill.

I concur- as each Real Life (tm) person would react differently to each event, there is no accurate translation of psych effects into game play. If I'm shaken by a tank rolling over me- but Solo is not- why penalize HIM for the event?

On the other side of the coin...what sort of modelling could be put in place for those who LIKE the 'thrill of combat' and perform better on the adrenalin surge? You have those who will fix a bayonet and go absolutely berserk on the enemy and ride the 'high' as long as far as it takes them. It happens in real combat- just as being scared happens- but there's no way to realistically implement it into the game.

The key is to differentiate between PHYSICAL effects and PSYCHOLOGICAL effects. A mortar round landing close by will naturally deafen or blind you (or any number of other nasty debilitating effects) for at least a short while, but it might not SCARE you into hiding in a foxhole for X minutes.

 

[Solo4114]

My point exactly, Karl. Psychology, especially battlefield psychology, is way too complex to be accurately represented in a video game. Regardless, psychology is ALREADY at work behind the scenes and people just don't realize it.

That guy who creeps from spot to spot, taking potshots where he can while he works forward to the cap zone because he doesn't want to get shot on the way in? That's realistic. Likewise, the lunatic who goes berserk and charges in yelling obscenities while spraying and praying is, at least in some cases, equally realistic. How people play the game might not be how they react in combat, but the variety of reactions and playstyles is a reasonable analogue for it in video game terms.

On the other hand, a physiological effect of limping when your leg gets grazed, flinching when an artillery shell hits 50m to your left, or not being able to sprint and jump indefinitely, those are all reasonable things to model and RO has done a bang-up job with them.

If we want to debate realism in terms of how the player's avatar reacts, those issues should be the things we should debate (IE: "In REAL life, ANY human could jump up and down more than twice without getting winded"), not the psychological effects that might or might not hit a given person.

 

[Jank]

Honestly I don't think many people give a shat about their score. They might take note once or twice during a game, or at the end, to see some manifestation of their improving skills, moving up the ladder for instance, but I never hear people bragging. Unless they're being jerks already, and that's already lame.

I think people play to have fun and to advance the objectives.

If everyone cared about their scores, MGers would never have to call for ammo. Sometimes I go dry and can't get ammo and have to go get my own, so I don't believe pubbers focus on scoring and points. It just ain't so.

 

[Solo4114]

Well, I'd agree with you on that....right up until the point where you say "Let's get rid of the scoreboard" or run a mutator with no scores. They may not want to brag, but they might want to know.

As for the MGer's plight, people love their score, but they love "pwning" other people better. If they're in the middle of killing people, they may not stop to run back and resupply you. Me, I always try to get to the MGer to help him out. Not for the 5 points, but because I figure he can always use the extra ammo.

 

[Colonel-Klink]

To be honest i never pay attention to capture points or scores. But i pay attention to killing as many things as i can, shooting at the right targets depending on what class i am, whislt trying to not die.

Its the only real reason i play FPS games....... to KILL things preferably in a horrible way, like bayonets or blowing them to pieces. I will only charge a capture point if its some bunker full of players on the other side so i can throw frags at them, then stick em

 

[Jank]

Well, I'd agree with you on that....right up until the point where you say "Let's get rid of the scoreboard" or run a mutator with no scores. They may not want to brag, but they might want to know.

Agreed, I would not want the scoreboard gone. I don't think it has any negative effect on the game, and yeah people want to know now and then. I just don't think anyone focuses on it, unless they are griping about their teammates, and that's already lame.

As for the MGer's plight, people love their score, but they love "pwning" other people better. If they're in the middle of killing people, they may not stop to run back and resupply you. Me, I always try to get to the MGer to help him out. Not for the 5 points, but because I figure he can always use the extra ammo.

True true, though if I hear someone calling for ammo while I'm dead, I usually try to find them when I spawn, on the way to the front. You're right, not for the points in my case, but because the MG pretty much holds the line if he's good, which allows you to move forward and cap.

 

[Trendkill]

I turn HUD off a lot of the time, gets rid of the score board and all other aspects (except) the map that make it look like a game. Helps with the immersiveness a lot.

 

[The_Cook]

Only way you can put "fear of death" into anygame is to attach electrodes to the players genitals. I guarantee you after the first shock the player will either never play with the electrodes on, or play much more carefully.

Just be warned there are some out there that might grow to enjoy death.

Now if I can get this mouse to hold still long enough I can staple those antlers onto him!

 

[The_Cook]

If we want to debate realism in terms of how the player's avatar reacts, those issues should be the things we should debate (IE: "In REAL life, ANY human could jump up and down more than twice without getting winded"), not the psychological effects that might or might not hit a given person.

Dude don't go there with that jumping more than twice thing..... I stopped playing BF2 and CS cause I got tired of BS bunnyhopping. Nothing kills a game more for me when I get into combat and some noob litteraly bunnyhops across the streat avoiding my fire.

PEOPLE DON"T BUNNYHOP when trying to cross a street while they get shot at. They run across with a prayer on thier lips.

In general I don't see people hopping much at all to avoid things. We dodge, we dive, we roll, we turn sideways, but humans don't hop. Rabbits do!

I appologize I take Bunnyhopping and Dolphindiving very seriously, it's the difference between a game that 11 to 18yr olds play and a game that that adults can play.

 

[Rabid Penguin]

Only real way I can think of to instill a "real" fear of death in players, is that you automatically get kicked from the server for a period of time when you accrue a certain amount of deaths, say 5 for instance (death by tk shouldn't count). I can't see this getting much support.

 

[Solo4114]

Oh, I agree that bunnyhopping is horrible in games, but I just might implement it a little differently. That issue's a minor one, really. The current system works fine, if they'd just give us the ability to mantle over low-lying obstacles. But the fundamental point stands: you model the physical in a game, not the psychological. Although the "suppression" effect is debatable, I still think it falls into the realm of the physical. A bullet whizzing by my head (especially a stream of bullets) is going to make me blink and/or flinch as a reflex at the very least. an explosion going off near me might deafen me (IE: in BF2 -- one of the things I actually like from that game), and may shake my head around disorienting me.

 

[Rabid Penguin]

i do not seem to be able to reply to this topic...

Okay, now i can... was trying to reply earlier, and my posts would just DISAPPEAR... strange..

I forgot what i was going to say anyway

 

[Monkwarrior]

Maybe if the devs implement an increased spawn timer. The more frequencies of deaths you have, the longer it takes you to respawn .... and vise versa.

This will work, it will attrackt more carefull players and in the long run players will adept.
Of course rejoining the server before the round ends should have no effect on your spawntime. Resetting it at each mapstart of course.

I am convinced this will work eventually,

Monk,

 

[Sasha_Suvorov]

I can honestly say that last night I was about as 'immersed' as I've ever been while lugging a PTRD around on one of the Arad 'Real Forest' variations. While trying to play as 'realistically' as possible, I took the time to sneak around and engage my targets very carefully while selling each 'life' as dearly as possible. Even without some sort of artificial psychological code to tell me I was rattled, there were definitely some tense moments while laying prone in the weeds with German soldiers only a few meters away- after they had passed I realized I had REALLY been holding my breath hoping they wouldn't find me! It's times like that I realize that RO is by far the best offering on the market, and that truly 'fear is just in your head' and no sort of artificial mechanism is going to replace the 'real thing'. If you can forget for a few moments that it is a computer sim, and play it as realistically as possible and immerse yourself to the nth degree, you will know that it's possible to get a shadow of fear and adrenalin on the battlefield without anything other than your own imagination. No status bar required.

 

[mkush]

Hi guys sorry if this has already been mentioned but In a hurry
maybe we could have more limited re-enforcements but have a wounding system, where you slow down being wounded and have to retreat from the front to get patched up then rejoin the battle , may make people a little more cautious.