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Tactics On assaulting: feasible vs. suicidal.

I. Kant

Grizzled Veteran
Apr 9, 2007
1,516
286
As with pretty much everything I start here, this is going to be concerned with realism, feasibility and gamey things.

It's been on my mind for the past couple of days, and also reading the thread about defence, I've found two quotes I'll allow myself to begin with:

I think that in order to get people stay low and defend gamers should have some penalties for dying. When I started playing RO some moths ago I did everything to stay alive, using basic infantry tactics taught in the army, but gradually I noticed that there's no gain that way. You MUST assault all the time, shoot from the hip and relocate constantly because everyone else is doing that also and you'll get overran if you don't do so. This kind of tactics where soldiers are running around shooting everything that moves will give you high scores when cap zones change owners but sometimes you may die 2-3 times in a row. But that's life, right? Wrong, because in the real life most soldiers are doing everything to stay alive, except some few individuals who most likely end up dead but if they survive they become heroes. In games, almost everyone plays like a reckless hero-wannabe. [...]

And, following that:

that would just increase the amount of couch potatos, sitting back, doing jack while they should be trying to attack.

This would work with no reinforcements, but enforcing people to stay alive wil only result in boring maps where absolutely nothing happens because the lines will never fall down enough before they are reinforced.

The map is usually all the enforcement you need to play less like a rambo because frankly if you do, you on't even get close enough to get a kill or grenade in the capzone.

Well, here we have the basic clash: whether to choose a feasible way of assaulting - i.e. you're trying to stay alive, while closing in on the objective (be it slower, if you need to keep your head down, or faster if conditions permit it), you're valuing your life and trying to beat the enemy at the same time - or to go for the zerg way - i.e. "If I don't make it this time, I'm sure I'll make it next time!... or sometime within the next 10 respawns!" and the paradigm of "getting into the capzone".

Let's begin by analyzing the elements constituting the - let's adopt such a name - "realistic" assault.

a) the soldier is going to try to stay alive, while also trying to get the job done. What this entails is less ruch and more planning, more care. What, in consequence, suggests more time for planning, planning-on-the-run, or even pre-planning the assault. And of course, it gives more time for the defenders.
b) Given the above, the soldier nevertheless accepts the risk of facing death, but will not recklessly endanger himself, or fellow soldiers.
c) As mentioned above - the assault would have to have some plan according to which the constituent elements of the unit would behave. Obviously, there are various ways to approach that - sometimes it may be better to trickle in reinforcements for the assault, albeit in a conscious manner (i.e.reinforcements arriving in a purposeful manner, with a clear aim in view), or just wait and gather up and form a formidable fighting force which should be less prone to being taken out with relative ease.
d) Following the plan will involve a lot of derailings and a lot of hangups, while some things the plan relies on cannot be done within the desired time. This may render the purposefulness of planning valueless to someone's point of view.

Now, let me try to brief on the "zerg rush":
a) A player is a participant in an online game given a (limited) ammount of lives. He is given free hand in using up as many of these lives, until the reinforcements run dry.
b) A round in a match runs against time, therefore lack of haste works against you, theoretically diminishing your chance of success if the map happens to be long. Haste is your friend.
c) Cap-zones fixation. Get inside, hold, cap. Better yet, if it's not recappable (nothing personal against locked objectives). Just keep that bar slowly filling up and you're good.
d) Last objective madness. Possibly it's last minutes and suddenly everyone's telling you - just throw yourselves at them, they are out of reinforcements, just push! Who cares what happens even one second after the last objective's been taken? Not the zerg, that's for sure.

These are two opposite ends of a scale. Usually, you'll have a mixture of some. When I began RO not long ago, I was extremelly excited to have lasted five minutes - not only to have survived, crawling around in the mud, but also to have engaged targets and (rare as it may have been) taking them out. But, as Basil nicely put it, it just did not pay off enough. Because in the end I ended contributing little to the team - or so it seemed.
Soon after the initial shock passed, I started selling my life cheap - just because I could.
Then there was the stage of getting more accustomed with the game, but - I have to admit this, sadly - I did not revert much. I still all to often sell my life to cheap, for anyone willing to take it. However, recently I am trying to get real, so to say, and while tanking I will stop often and scout for targets, to spot them as soon as possible. On foot, I will try to scout the situation ahead and try to find a good way of solving it. I'm trying not to be in a rush. I'm trying to survive. I'm finding that it's not the default approach in this game. Well, just a little rant. Comments, questions, dirty jokes?
 
It's not simply lack of fear of death. It's that there's a time limit and the clock is ticking. Any game with respawns is not going to have "fear of death." Even a game WITH NO respawns will still not have TRUE fear of death, so in that sense "fear of death" is some mythical shangri-la concept that gamers have concocted. As far as the more realistic "video game" version of "fear of death" (which is more just excitement and immersion coupled with semi-realistic tactics), that's a matter of preference for gamers.

At the moment, I think RO's game design appropriately "punishes" people who are foolish in terms of how they play. BUT THIS MAY NOT MEAN WHAT YOU THINK IT MEANS.

By that I mean people who literally just charge blindly, who don't use their weapon to its advantages, etc., those people tend to get killed relatively quickly, even if they manage to take one or two people with them. You can't, however, expect them NOT to at least get a couple guys sometimes. Everyone gets lucky (or unlucky) now and then.

So, that lunatic "run 'n' gunner" with the SMG who appears to have charged blindly lobbing grenades in on the way only to spray and pray and manage to kill you while clearing out the objective? Maybe he's not as dumb as you think. That's EXACTLY what I'd do were I in the same position. I might aim a bit more, but aiming in RO is not like aiming in real life. Depending on how close I was, though, I'd just spray and pray.

Actually, the guys I think are the MOST suicidal are the people who DON'T think about their weapon and who simply charge in. So, pretty much, the SMGers "run 'n' gun" tactics are what you'd want to do, given that the SMG is most deadly up close. But the riflemen who charge in, those guys are the real lunatics to me.


Anyway, I generally play cautiously. I run from cover to cover, I'll stop to regain my breath here and there, but I'll also do the banzai charge if the situation dictates it (IE: my team needs reinforcing NOW; the map's about to end and we have one more cap zone to take; etc.). But honestly, I think the clock is your biggest enemy when talking about the "zerg assault."
 
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Well the thing is,there always needs to be more bodies in the cap,so I always charge with my rifle,hoping that the SMGs get grenaded by me or my teammates or a comrade SMG takes care of them.Bolt riflemen and and semi-auto riflemen(the latter to some extent) I can take care of in CQC.
Killing an SMG with a rifle is rare though,but that makes it more fun when you finally do,doesn't it? :p
 
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You can't add "Fear of Death" to this game, It's not impossible but it would take a lot of time due to engine limitation.
What you have to do is simple: change your mind, you can play ANY game tactically, roleplaying as a real soldier, if you want, and if you have fun doing it.
I do this all the time, people call me a noob, but I'm having a lot of fun, so I don't care.
 
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when i play on a public server, its allways the same. defenders attack to much while attacker sit back and plink. there are too many people that play exactly the same when they are in the attacking team or in the defending team. it happens too often that the defenders leave a great defenceposition just to get kills before the other teammates get them. i have seen this very often: im the mg in a great defence position, and there is absolute no need to move up, but there are allways idiots that ran trough my field of fire, or charge to get the kills i could get very easily just to get killed.

if u wanna help gameplay, than punish the dying defender, but not the dying attacker. punish the attacker for dying would kill public play!

mfg Arnold
 
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when i play on a public server, its allways the same. defenders attack to much while attacker sit back and plink. there are too many people that play exactly the same when they are in the attacking team or in the defending team. it happens too often that the defenders leave a great defenceposition just to get kills before the other teammates get them. i have seen this very often: im the mg in a great defence position, and there is absolute no need to move up, but there are allways idiots that ran trough my field of fire, or charge to get the kills i could get very easily just to get killed.

if u wanna help gameplay, than punish the dying defender, but not the dying attacker. punish the attacker for dying would kill public play!

mfg Arnold
 
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Honestly over time I get the feeling that a no scoreboard mutator and no DM mutator combined really help people play more realistically because their only real reward is not having to wait for respawn.

Now that is an idea!

Having played both the normal pubs and in realism matches, I can tell you that staying alive and working as a team is far more rewarding than running around whipping nades and spraying down n00bs with an smg. I think working towards an objective is alot more fun then trying to get the most kills.
 
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when i play on a public server, its allways the same. defenders attack to much while attacker sit back and plink. there are too many people that play exactly the same when they are in the attacking team or in the defending team.

you know what they say.. the best defense is a good offense.. *shrug*

Lets face it.. RO is a game.. alot of people don't consider sitting in one spot laying down, waiting for the enemy to walk into your field of fire 'fun'..

(Don't get me wrong.. I don't mind it.. and I do believe some of the offical RO maps are setup with some great kill zones when actually used (the back tunnel in Danzig comes to mind..)
 
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Any game with respawns is not going to have "fear of death." Even a game WITH NO respawns will still not have TRUE fear of death, so in that sense "fear of death" is some mythical shangri-la concept that gamers have concocted. As far as the more realistic "video game" version of "fear of death" (which is more just excitement and immersion coupled with semi-realistic tactics), that's a matter of preference for gamers.

I take it you have never played WWIIOL? Or ran through an Ultima Online dungeon with 20k of gold in your backpack when you have run out of mana while 9 hell hounds have just spawned on top of you?

Fear of death can be pulled off... Usually painfully so in MMO some games with "virtual worlds" because of long term gains and losses.

I think the 15 minute down time trip to the front in WWII Online really got annoying sometimes especially when you got killed by someone you didn't even see, but fear of death was there and made you not play so recklessly.

With RO, I don't think it can be simulated by a risk reward system simply because it is very hard to simulate a punishment system even with something as painful as WWIIOL.

However, you could simulate fear of death in the computer side of things. Perhaps a "Fear of Death" meter in which the more you see your team mates die, get shot at, or simply surrounded by the enemy will cause you to "freeze up" like people do in real life.

Many people will argue "but I want to have my guy do as my controls do!".

Well many people want their characters to have perfect auto aim with crosshairs and run at "the Flash" speeds and jump in the air like Superman, but that doesn't make it realistic and you don't see those things in RO.

I've said this before... RO treats the virtual characters as they were high on PCP with no long term reactions to pain, exhaustion, or fear of death.

If you were an 18 year old bavarian farmer and you just saw all your squad mates blow up due to an arty shell... You'd sit there and cry and crap your pants without much self control.

On the other hand... If you were a hardened veteran then you could be surrounded by the enemy and still fight to the death.

The only way I could think you could "simulate" this would be to a timer on the player that gains them rank depending on how long they have been alive. Say you go from "Green" to "Seen combat" in 3 minutes and "Battle Hardened" and "Vetern" at 12 and maybe "Fanatical" at 15. I dunno...

But in order to simulate reality you must have some type of involuntary morale system. I doubt TWI is going to do that any time soon, but a game that actually decides to use such a system in a multi-player game might be revolutionary. (or might fail horribly).

So... You are right... The carrot and stick approach will not work to get people to play in such a way to not be fearless suicidal commandos, but rather enforce it like you do with Iron sights and stamina.
 
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If you want fear of death to the extreme, play eve online! You can lose painful amounts in that game. Easy to lose weeks, or even months of money in a single death.

Anyway. As mentioned above suicidal to one is feasible to another. I've played this game long enough to know what's doable, but I'm sure many times to others I've appeared suicidal charging across that open space throwing grenades. I never charge into a situation that is literally suicide, but I've regularly thrown myself into a situation where survival is unlikely, but still very much possible. And I'm sure the same goes for most people.

Outside of placing RO in a mmo enviroment, I don't think you can change that mentality. All ideas I've seen to stop it so far have had huge drawbacks. And don't get me started on how bad an idea it would be to remove scores :p
 
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