Let's make a difference

[LordDeTracy]

Since he did suggest "1 or 2" big projects. I would like to see the community vehicle system beta tested (hence the new beta test thread) and the community weapons implemented. Most of them are done, just a little bug fixing and polishing. Focus on new community made weapons, vehicles, and monsters. They are already made.

Also, the balancing issues...is there a way to give the community more access to fix the balancing issues ourselves and then giving TWI the credit of releasing the balance patch.

(Dont add maps next time, that was a waste of time, especially when the one still says "Final" version when you press tab)

 

[Balthazar]

LAW changes; the bigger point could either be considered a nerf or a buff depending on how you look at it.

First off, reduce its weight to 12.

Second, which is alot more than just changing variables, make it so that it is permanently being held in the players right arm while in the inventory, and allow people to use one handed weapons with their left arm. Such as a 9mm/deagle or a knife/machette and possibly the MAC-10/MP7.

Having a weapon in the offhand would reduce the speed of most functions such as reloading and would remove their right click function, which would aim the LAW and prepare that for firing instead. Guns in the offhand would have massive recoil and possibly reduced rate of fire for the semi-automatic. Pointy objects in the offhand would have reduced damage and rate of fire, wouldn't give the speed boosts and probably also shouldn't have the power attacks. And having nothing in the offhand ie: the LAW selected, would function as normal and/or give the function to whack them with it as previously stated.

Players wanting to run, aim with something else, or support specialists wanting to use a shotgun or something will have to put down the massive rocket launcher instead of putting it in their pocket. This would probably fix most peoples issues with the thing.

 

[outofrealman]

I've also ignored some way over the top nerfs like reducing the EBR ammo to 80 and such.
We don't want to nerf it into the ground, just make it less effective.

I must say making the M14 to have 160 shots dont really nerfed it. When the M14 still had 15 mag, you can refill the ammo once and last 2-3 waves if you are trying to hit the head. You dont really need to hit many heads, as crawlers and stalkers die in one shot, clots only two. And these three zeds appears ALL THE TIME. You just need to "sometimes" hitting the head then you have enough ammo for 2-3 waves unless all of your teamates really suck.

What about people who have about 50%+ headshoting rate? They never run out of ammo even the total number of mag is halfed. And the M14 only weight 8 blocks, which I suppose I should be having side arms. However, I never have a reason to use my side arms, they always stay at full ammo including the 9mm. Shouldn't killing floor be a game that encourage players to use different weapon combos and use different weapons in different suituations? I dont think this change will nerf the M14 to the ground, it is still REALLY effective. It just kind of forced you to switch between weapons when there's only a few clots or you run out of ammo at the middle of the wave.

Remember the M14 only weight 8 blocks. You can have a hell lot of side arms. Player should have reasons to use them. That is why I very much like the new MAC-10, firebugs now have to use both of them for different suituations.

 

[Entangler]

Wrong.
The purpose of this thread is to suggest 9_6 things to add to his list. HE was the one asked to compile the list, and he asked our help to be sure he didn't miss anything.
This is NOT a discussion.
You (I mean the community as a whole) already had a ****load of discussions, and nothing but too many words got out of it.
What the developer asked, and what 9_6 has to do, is a concise list of the most important things to be done, not create another 10+ pages discussion topic, which no-one of the developers will ever have time or will to read.

I am sorry to cut your WoT to this, but if the basis is wrong then everything built on it is wrong.

You don't understand. The developers don't need to read the discussion if they don't want to - the purpose of it is ultimately to help 9_6 decide what to put on the list. So although what 9_6 will end up submitting to Xienen is indeed a list, not a discussion, it will be influenced, to some degree, by what we discuss in here.

But, you are wondering, why discuss at all? Because we all have slightly different ideas about what exactly this update should contain, and a bunch of different numbers for the same variable can't very well coexist in the patch. Though 9_6 will of course make his own decisions about what goes in, he is trying to involve the community with this thread, that the final product might reflect its wishes as best he feels it sensibly can. That means two things for those of us who wish to contribute: firstly, that whenever we suggest a particular value for any given variable, or a specific tweak to a game mechanic, we should have good reasons for why our version of the idea is better than its competitors; and two, that we should look for common ground as much as possible and be prepared to make compromises, so better to provide suggestions upon which we can collectively agree.

It is a risk of course; I'm well aware that the thread will degenerate if people spend more time bashing each other about with text fu than being constructive. (In fact, I mentioned that in my previous post, but I'm guessing you didn't read that far.) But I'm confident that it won't come to that, because at least most of us here really want to make this work; and if we all do it properly, it'll make 9_6's job a lot easier, because then it will eventually give a clear picture of the community's consensus about the important balance issues, and save him from having to make too many executive decisions.


...It's about time I got into the balance suggestions, isn't it? Alright, give me a few minutes...

 

[Jedi]

I think the SCAR damage needs to between the level it is now and the level it was before the update to make it more justified than using the cheaper AK.

I think all weapons should be resold at half cost and weapons that you start out with at level 5 and 6 should be resold for zero dollars.

I am against the flat rate 33% discount for items for all perk levels. There is something wrong with a level zero being able to buy a powerful weapon at the same price as a level 6. All that hard work leveling up being less meaningful. Instead, the discounts of each perk level need to be changed so the items don't become too cheap for higher levels.

All starting weapons should have half ammo instead of full ammo.

The crossbow should get a damage reduction so head shot decapitations are harder.

Remove the free armor for the fire bug at level 5 and/or 6. Just keep the item benefit to one per perk level (flamethrower and MAC-10)

Reduce the damage and/or magazine size for the MAC-10.

 

[9_6]

Please, don't bicker and don't post walls of text.
This thread is for reminding me what to put on that list.
If we start a discussion, it'll end in a locked topic and I'll proceed on my own.
I don't think anyone here wants that.

 

[Entangler]

Please, don't bicker and don't post walls of text.
This thread is for reminding me what to put on that list.
If we start a discussion, it'll end in a locked topic and I'll proceed on my own.
I don't think anyone here wants that.

...Alright, fair enough. I still reckon it could work, but if you'd rather not risk it, that's understandable.

Well, in the interest of brevity, here's a severely cut-down version of about half of what I originally planned to post. There'll be more later.


General

Perk Discounts - I was originally going to suggest keeping the progression but halving it (5-35%), but on second thought I actually like the fixed discount idea more. I reckon the Pipe Bomb discount for Demolitions needs a nerf too though, but not a big one if other measures will be introduced to counteract carpeting. Maybe

 

[Blade4613]

some ideas

some ideas

hi, i'm new, an user on a forum that i use told me that 9_6 can do something to improve killing floor, fair enough! i wanted to ask you if somebody can improve damages of the weapons or make the zombies do less damages because once i was playing in difficult, we were in 5 shooting to a fleshpound with Scar-h, ak47 an m32 a xbow and one with double desert eagles, after 15 seconds of no-stop shooting the fleshpound gets mad charge in front of me and with one single hit it kills me... i had 100 of live and 100 or 96% of armour, it's impossibile to do like that, i suggest some extra damages and if you can talk with the developer could kindly if he can add new weapons?

 

[Yomommassis]

Weakness to L.A.W. rockets - Currently L.A.W. rockets neither receive the explosives damage bonus (their damage type isn't included in that particular check) nor are subject to the global resistances (since it is included in that check). It should take extra damage from them in line with its other explosives weaknesses, to make the L.A.W. more useful overall.

False? They now get a damage boost with DamTypeRocketImpact which is weaponclass=Class'KFMod.LAW'
but the grenade launchers also to DamTypeRocketImpact when they impact
Going to need a second opinion on this one



The perk description states that it gains resistance to explosives, and extra explosives damage which increases the resistance and damage of both frag grenades and projectile nades.
Yet the Demolisions perk receives no discount of any type of grenade even though the perk description states it gets a discount on explosives. (According to KFVetDemolisions.uc)

 

[EricFong]

I must say making the M14 to have 160 shots dont really nerfed it. When the M14 still had 15 mag, you can refill the ammo once and last 2-3 waves if you are trying to hit the head. You dont really need to hit many heads, as crawlers and stalkers die in one shot, clots only two. And these three zeds appears ALL THE TIME. You just need to "sometimes" hitting the head then you have enough ammo for 2-3 waves unless all of your teamates really suck.

Remember the M14 only weight 8 blocks. You can have a hell lot of side arms. Player should have reasons to use them. That is why I very much like the new MAC-10, firebugs now have to use both of them for different suituations.

Try to use the current "nerfed" M14 in 6 man suicidal, it is balance enough for me.

 

[9_6]

...Alright, fair enough. I still reckon it could work, but if you'd rather not risk it, that's understandable.

Well, in the interest of brevity, here's a severely cut-down version of about half of what I originally planned to post. There'll be more later.

As soon as we engage in large discussions, it'll all go to hell real quick.
Especially with a touchy subject such as this one.
I would know.

Also sepparating headshot and body damage multipliers may be simple to implement but it's still a completely new system that could lead to a cluster**** of possible new problems that you didn't even know existed yet.

As I see it, this might be the last update and it's not gonna be big.
Everything on that list that isn't red is probably just wishful thinking.
There's simply way too much you could do.
[TW]Xienen said it himself, everyone works on other projects now and he literally does this in his free time.
So slapping a huge list in his face doesn't really help at this point.

This is probably the final plaster.

 

[kache]

As soon as we engage in large discussions, it'll all go to hell real quick.
Especially with a touchy subject such as this one.
I would know.

Also sepparating headshot and body damage multipliers may be simple to implement but it's still a completely new system that could lead to a cluster**** of possible new problems that you didn't even know existed yet.

As far as I see it, this might be the last update and it's not gonna be big.
Everything on that list that isn't red is probably just wishful thinking.
There's simply way too much you could do.
[TW]Xienen said it himself, everyone works on other projects now and he literally does this in his free time.
So slapping a huge list in his face doesn't really help at this point.

This is probably the final plaster.

If this is really the last update I really hope he will add more perk levels, because the RPG mechanic is not complete (a normal RPG mechanic takes the player from "**** that can be killed by anyone" to "god that can oneshot anything", and the level 6 is not even nearly enough to oneshot everything.).
If this is really the end for this game, why not letting it finish with a bang, and restart from scratch with KF2? It would give the game a few more months of life (the time for a good amount of players to level up to the max level), and would open the road for the next title.

 

[Yomommassis]

[TW]Xienen said it himself, everyone works on other projects now and he literally does this in his free time.
So slapping a huge list in his face doesn't really help at this point.

We could also put together a community fix complete with already tweaked scripts and a change log and simply send it to TW for inspection and compiling

There are people here fully capable of doing such things

Much like how KF Mod was fixed

 

[9_6]

We could also put together a community fix complete with already tweaked scripts and a change log and simply send it to TW for inspection and compiling

There are people here fully capable of doing such things

Yes. Exactly. But no one has done that yet from what I have seen so far.
Why not I don't understand but this probably deserves its own thread.

 

[Galslacht]

My apoligies for not participating in altering the weapons and classes, I dont really think changes are needed in those aspects (except the firebug-bug with the last update Yoshi mentioned).

The biggest problem for me, for this game, is the low difficulty on suicidal for Veterans.
You can boost the difficulty non-harmoniously by altering the HP-values, etc, but I dont think that is a good long-term solution.

To make a small suggestion here, the maps with the wide open areas and long stretches of space such as mountain pass, farm, etc are the most easy ones because there is no Zed that can effectively engage the player from long range (not even the Husk).

Bringing some Zed in that can counter the SS and Commando from long range, but only from long range, being ineffective at short range, would be great. It's similar to a turkey-shoot at the moment on said maps.

The only Zed I encountered that was somewhat effectively engaging me on long range was the Patriarch. But being at the end of the game, it did not make up for my dissatisfaction.

This would:
- fill in the tactical gap for the Zeds
- decrease the exploiting of shooting from a balcony-thing and windows, with no Zed ever coming close to them.
- moreover, it would give the Zerker a viable reason to exist on top of that
- increase the overall difficulty of the game, players will not make use of the big Zed's disadvantage: its disability to engage from long range in a good manner


What do you guys think of this idea?
I know this is not suited for the next update, so if I really have to make a balance suggestion, it would be that the FP and Scrake get somewhat more HP and more resistance against the Headshots from the SS.

 

[Steg]

Here's my thoughts on the Commando: I think they nerfed the Scar in the wrong way.

The commando is supposed to be a trash-sweeper, not a boss killer, yes? The change to the Scar nerfed the ability to sweep trash more than it did the ability to fight skrake/FP. Here's why - Scar used to be able to one-shot pretty much all the trash, but it could also put the hurt on a skrake/FP by dumping an entire mag in the head of one that's already wounded.

By lowering the damage a small amount, it now takes multiple shots to kill trash, doubling the amount of ammo and time needed to sweep trash. It works out to 50% effectiveness. But vs a Skrake/FP, the only difference is it does whatever amount the damage was lowered by (less than 50%).

My solution: Make the commando better at clearing trash, but not so good against harder targets. Raise the damage of the Scar back to where it was, but lower the magazine size. This means a commando can still one shot trash, kill medium monsters, but dumping a full mag into a boss will do less damage (because of fewer shots fired per reload). This means you have to pay more attention to how much you've shot and when to reload, makes use of the commando reload speed, and severely limits the Scar's effectiveness to other perks (Which is where at least part of the problem comes from).

Dropping the mag size from 25 to 15 (for lv 6 commando) means you'll still run out of ammo if you use the Scar all wave long, so you still need the pup/ak as backup. It's good to encourage people to use multiple weapons. A 15 round magazine, unperked, would be 12 rounds. (13 rounds rank 2, 14 rounds rank 3)

Bullpup: High capacity, low damage.
AK: Medium capacity, medium damage.
Scar: Low capacity, high damage.

 

[CandleJack]

Here's my thoughts on the Commando: I think they nerfed the Scar in the wrong way.

The commando is supposed to be a trash-sweeper, not a boss killer, yes? The change to the Scar nerfed the ability to sweep trash more than it did the ability to fight skrake/FP. Here's why - Scar used to be able to one-shot pretty much all the trash, but it could also put the hurt on a skrake/FP by dumping an entire mag in the head of one that's already wounded.

By lowering the damage a small amount, it now takes multiple shots to kill trash, doubling the amount of ammo and time needed to sweep trash. It works out to 50% effectiveness. But vs a Skrake/FP, the only difference is it does whatever amount the damage was lowered by (less than 50%).

My solution: Make the commando better at clearing trash, but not so good against harder targets. Raise the damage of the Scar back to where it was, but lower the magazine size. This means a commando can still one shot trash, kill medium monsters, but dumping a full mag into a boss will do less damage (because of fewer shots fired per reload). This means you have to pay more attention to how much you've shot and when to reload, makes use of the commando reload speed, and severely limits the Scar's effectiveness to other perks (Which is where at least part of the problem comes from).

Dropping the mag size from 25 to 15 (for lv 6 commando) means you'll still run out of ammo if you use the Scar all wave long, so you still need the pup/ak as backup. It's good to encourage people to use multiple weapons. A 15 round magazine, unperked, would be 12 rounds. (13 rounds rank 2, 14 rounds rank 3)

Bullpup: High capacity, low damage.
AK: Medium capacity, medium damage.
Scar: Low capacity, high damage.

...where to begin.

The SCAR has pretty much the same capacity, i played it after the latest patch and noticed no difference to Commando, though i admittedly play more or less an efficient and skillful style; i disdain the use of the SCAR as a primary weapon because the AK or L22 can do it's job better.

Also, though this belongs in the tactics section, the Scrakes are easily killed by Commando given 2 guns and enough room. This is true even after the patch, though the necessary room must be increased.

Lowering the magazine size may be an acceptable solution, but going below 20 shots per magazine is just pure blasphemy. I follow gun-nuttism and this concept goes against my religion

Also, the L22 (bullpup) or AK47 should be used as your main weapon; high capacity and ample damage to get the job done. The SCAR is a survival weapon that's more or less a backup for when you're OOA on your primary and you can't reload in time.

 

[Selnath]

While I won't comment on balance changes because I haven't the backing for them, I will say that I think the majority of the suggestions are geared towards making the game more difficult. I would urge people to consider instead of balancing other things around the game difficulty to balance the game difficulty around everything else; i.e. Hardcore mode. Increase specimen health, increase speed, give them resistances, whatever you please. Doing this has no affect on current gameplay balance, while giving players a way to challenge themselves.

No, it isn't a small balance change, but it does eliminate the need for many, many of them, without unforseen consequences to current gameplay. My personal recommendation to 9_6 is to not make any suggestions that are geared towards making the game more difficult in lieu of noting the general desire of the community for a more challenging experience (i.e. the Hardcore mode mentioned). I'd rather a newer, more difficult gameplay mode be implemented sooner, and balance changes based on *that* mode be looked at.

 

[Galslacht]

My apoligies for not participating in altering the weapons and classes, I dont really think changes are needed in those aspects (except the firebug-bug with the last update Yoshi mentioned).

The biggest problem for me, for this game, is the low difficulty on suicidal for Veterans.
You can boost the difficulty non-harmoniously by altering the HP-values, etc, but I dont think that is a good long-term solution.

To make a small suggestion here, the maps with the wide open areas and long stretches of space such as mountain pass, farm, etc are the most easy ones because there is no Zed that can effectively engage the player from long range (not even the Husk).

Bringing some Zed in that can counter the SS and Commando from long range, but only from long range, being ineffective at short range, would be great. It's similar to a turkey-shoot at the moment on said maps.

The only Zed I encountered that was somewhat effectively engaging me on long range was the Patriarch. But being at the end of the game, it did not make up for my dissatisfaction.

This would:
- fill in the tactical gap for the Zeds
- decrease the exploiting of shooting from a balcony-thing and windows, with no Zed ever coming close to them.
- moreover, it would give the Zerker a viable reason to exist on top of that
- increase the overall difficulty of the game, players will not make use of the big Zed's disadvantage: its disability to engage from long range in a good manner


What do you guys think of this idea?
I know this is not suited for the next update, so if I really have to make a balance suggestion, it would be that the FP and Scrake get somewhat more HP and more resistance against the Headshots from the SS.

+ the grapple function of the ordinary clod for the Stalker.

 

[Cr@zY-$HeeP]

I'm coming out of hiding for this one final plea, especially if this is going to be the end-all official content update to the game:

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE -

Implement an in-game UI element that allows me to see what maps in rotation (and mutators for that matter) are white-listed, and which ones are not. This can be either an icon next to their name in the map-selection, or even something as subtle as a different color of the text.

In its current state, it becomes a tremendous effort for admins to take third-party custom content seriously. It's coming to a point where I don't even want custom content on my server because of the amount of times a white-listed item has suddenly become black-listed without ANY in-game indication whatsoever.

So PLEASE, TWI... Before you officially say goodbye to Killing Floor, do this one small favor to facilitate the growth of custom content!