How exactly do you define broken mess? Because a broken mess, to me, would be a game that barely functions at all.
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Here is some context into the amount of work that goes into a game like KF2.
- Thread starter LiquidArrow
- Start date
How exactly do you define broken mess? Because a broken mess, to me, would be a game that barely functions at all.
Fair enough, but calling it a broken mess just because of a few problems seems a bit extreme. I certainly won't disagree that they should be doing a better job of putting out balance patches and bug fixes.
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Broken mess would be the balance. Every patch is making the balance situation worst not better. Commando was fine up until the latest update. Support was fine up until the detonation and incineration update. Now 3/7 perks are not worth playing. While the other 4 range from massively overpowered to simply required.
Big zeds strafing in midair to hit you, all zeds with melee can teleport grab/attack you from quite a distance away, ammo spawn basically non-existent making extremely low ammo perks completely useless in high end games, hans melee still op, stumble mechanics not adequately explained without looking at the spreadsheet, these are all just the tip of the iceberg.
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Valid complaints, and you have a right to be upset at the fact that we've had very little in the way of balancing. However, Yoshiro said in another post that they would be doing some waves of balance patches after the new year.
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^So much this.
Also for balance: LOL.
We're talking about a PvE game here. We played KF1 with O.H.K.O xbow for years until devs decided to "have a look" and we still have non-magnum pistols hitting harder than an entire arsenal of Commando perk there.
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i agree with whats on the past quote, however i dont think that the game being PVE or that other game still have balance issues is a good argument at all.
i'm not in hurry for the game to be finished, as long as it turns out well and it doesnt take 4 years ill be happy. i would certainly like more balance patches since people plays it as much as a finished game, but i'm not as arrogant as to push that opinion on the devs.
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Ok, if that is the case and doing anything takes a lot of dev time then riddle me this, why are they bothering with micro transactions so early when a lot of stuff still needs to be done?
Of all the things that still needed doing, zed animations, modeling, textures, audio, balance, map design, bug fixes, it seems that for some reason micro transactions took priority. There are still 3 perks missing, a lot of threads are up about balance that needs looking at with a lot of agreement on at least a basic level (weapon, perk, zed and boss balance), still have keys getting reset every dam patch (not a big thing but annoying and makes me wonder why it haven't be fixed yet), the farmhouse spot that's glitched allowing people to cheese HoE games, you don't need to look far to see that game has problems.
No one is sitting there saying "oh, making a game requires no work" but really, when they turn around and set certain priorities over others it bugs the **** out of me. You could have held off till the new year for micro transactions and no one would have cared while getting in the full rebalance of demo plus making sure other things were fixed along with everything else would have restored a lot of faith even to people who are nearly to the point of quitting.
If everything takes so much effort like the op suggests than why is effort being put into something that ultimately does not matter at all for the game itself instead of somewhere that actually does need attention in order for the game to you know, be fun and playable?
Of all the things that still needed doing, zed animations, modeling, textures, audio, balance, map design, bug fixes, it seems that for some reason micro transactions took priority. There are still 3 perks missing, a lot of threads are up about balance that needs looking at with a lot of agreement on at least a basic level (weapon, perk, zed and boss balance), still have keys getting reset every dam patch (not a big thing but annoying and makes me wonder why it haven't be fixed yet), the farmhouse spot that's glitched allowing people to cheese HoE games, you don't need to look far to see that game has problems.
No one is sitting there saying "oh, making a game requires no work" but really, when they turn around and set certain priorities over others it bugs the **** out of me. You could have held off till the new year for micro transactions and no one would have cared while getting in the full rebalance of demo plus making sure other things were fixed along with everything else would have restored a lot of faith even to people who are nearly to the point of quitting.
If everything takes so much effort like the op suggests than why is effort being put into something that ultimately does not matter at all for the game itself instead of somewhere that actually does need attention in order for the game to you know, be fun and playable?
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They've explained that the implementation of the zedconomy didn't delay any updates since the people who worked on it aren't the same people who do modeling and animations. Also, their defense for implementing the system in early access was to iterate on it and improve it before release. Now, since Tripwire is still a relatively small studio, I have a hard time believing the zedconomy didn't cause any delays at all, but they probably weren't huge delays, either. And adding the micros now to improve them with feedback makes sense, but it's not going to stop them from leaving a bad taste in the mouths of people who would have rather seen new content or balance updates.
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Sooo, what important feedback do you personally think they will really get form implementing it the way they did vs actually listening to many of the ideas in the first place of how to present microtransactions without them being a pain?
I'm sorry but as far as I'm concerned they saw the ideas and things being thrown around for how the make microtransactions not to be a pain and said "well that is nice but...we are going to do it our way." There was i think about a 20 or so page thread of people saying how they would like micro transactions to be implemented and from what i read almost none of the ideas were taken into account.
Honestly, i don't understand what is so hard about microtransactions or figuring them out, many games have been doing them for years and there are plenty of examples (even really good examples) of how to execute them. I don't look at that as a system that really needs all that much feedback after it's release. Apart from people saying that the price of keys is way to ****ing high and 1 or 2 very minor things it is not an EA topic.
I'm not holding my breath to see any feedback about zedconomy go anywhere, I don't think there will be any major changes to it, i think it was just put in to generate more money and that was really it.
I don't see how this was a such an urgent thing over fixing other bugs and problems that really are clear and present problems. If we are going to have to wait this long for updates then i would rather them just include things that fix many quality of life problems or those involving game play, i would rather time not be taken up (no matter how little time it is) by things not involving how the game plays in any way, shape or form. People bought Killing Floor to shoot zeds and be awesome, not to collect hats.
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I would just add that if ppl do not care then thats fine but they shouldnt expect any sort of "relationship" with the provider of that product. If all they feel is 'you sell, we buy' then the provider is ethically able to say 'fine in that case - we provide, you buy. Dont expect us to listen to you, go beyond the bounds of the EULA with which you are supplied the product, etc etc.'
Begs the argument that ppl with this sort of attitude would be happier getting a console and a 'finished' product. Or they should stay away from the Early Access process. Its glaringly obvious that if they have no time for the development process then the development process should not have time [or effort] for them.
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This is all fine and good. I agree with it but.... as already pointed out alot of customers are just that - customers! All of the above is relevant in only one thing - the planning and the delivery of the final product.
This is why project/product/development managers should always buff their planning by 50%. Or if the dev house is an indie - to aim small, get the features right and then expand the content.
Its why I would hope that if/when there is a Killing Floor 3 the EA process (ie. a release to customers in whatever bae level of content is started much further down the line with at least 2/3s or more the features already in. Then its just a question of finalizing stuff.
Personally I understand all why things take so long having been a project/manager/developer so I have nothing against the way things have gone. But I understand why the paying public gets cranky. Best you can do is limit their anxiety or limit their exposure (time) theyre affected by it.
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Well part of it as well is let people in on what your actually trying to do timeline wise. Many people are getting restless because a lot of the planning doesn't seem to be there and apart from the bi-weekly updates the community as a whole doesn't get to look at how the road map will go.
The reason your getting so much negative feedback is because no one knows how long everything is in fact going to take, no one knows what is actually coming next and then you get things sprung on you as a "surprise" (read an unpleasant one) like the zedconomy and lack of sharpshooter.
People made it pretty clear what they want and what should take priority so when it seems like the devs arn't listening, especially in a title labeled as EA i can see why they are getting more than slightly annoyed.
Many still remember the wonderful year of people running off with money using an EA title and the trouble with both microtransactions and paid modding so really with those two combined i really can't blame customers for not having confidence.
One of the more irritating things is that the dev team can't decide if they want to unleash the game in a beta state and have people actually test it or if they want to act like it's a full game getting updates which has people scratching their heads on whether the game is supposed to be in EA or not, as well as if their feedback means anything.
When it comes to the EA market you can't cover your eyes and plug your ears and pretend that there is not a ton of negativity surrounding the EA market, you actually have to address that and SHOW people that you are actually different instead of just saying it.
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I understand that is what was done to make the game, but most of that is already done. What needs to be done now is a much smaller list.
What is done for new updates now (from my knowledge; post gunslinger):
New Perks:
Weapons:
-4 weapon models + knife and grenade
-their firing/exploding animations, whether or not they need to be manually made or recorded and synced to the weapon's in-game model
-possibly new models for their projectiles(if they're projectile weapons
-sounds (recorded if it is a real weapon by acquiring the real weapon and tweaked by a sound engineer, or just made from scratch if it isn't)
-class files for the weapon and it's projectile (very very simple if the weapon simple deals damage by shooting normal bullets and doesn't have any interested effects like firing projectiles that are effected by gravity or have an arm distance or anything else)
The perk itself:
-a class file including code for all of its skills and variables for its passive abilities (work it entails varies on complexity of the skills the perk has; bonus damage perks are very very easy to code, some special effects aren't, but I'd say each skill so far has a limit on how hard it can really be to make that isn't all too high)
Etc:
-a possible 3rd boss, although no official word has been said about another from my knowledge
-new zeds, although they previously said they planned on experimenting with new zeds after the full release of the game
-new single weapons or characters, most likely dlc or requiring something to unlock them (even as simple as liking their page on steam). For the work it takes to make weapons see above and keep in mind that melee weapons that you just swing around and do nothing else(like the zweihander) require substantially less work to make. For characters, they need a body head and first person arms model, usually 4 different outfit textures, size/offset for cosmetics they can wear, and their voiced lines
-new maps(usually 2) which include:
-many many textures and modeled structures. all with collision frames
-broken and unbroken versions of certain things such as destructable
lights and furniture
-lighting
-combining meshes of each room to minimize number of separate objects
in the map, which improves performance (this step is fairly easy)
-background scenery which are usually 2d made to look good at a
distance
-sky textures
-putting it all together so the map has an obvious theme that fits what
they want for it, and so that is challenging, but also fun. All the official
maps have the theme and looks, but making it well designed isn't
something that all the maps share. I'd say farm has the best gameplay
design
Besides all that stuff in "Etc", I'd say a new perk in a month isn't an unrealistic expectation if there are like 30 people working on it, they have access to the equipment they need when they need it, and they're working 40 hour shift. For a perk like sharpshooter where their guns are all just normal guns that fire ordinary bullets with flat damage, I could probably code the entire perk class file and all its weapon class files/their projectiles myself in a week or two so I doubt that's what's holding them up; it's like 2-5 pages of code for the perk, and less than 1 for each weapon. In guessing the weapons are the biggest holdup, which models, textures, animations, and sounds.
Everything above this line is to expand on this thread, stating to unhappy players what goes into updates. The list is most likely incomplete
All that being said, I understand why gunslinger and the previous updates took as long as they did. the only issue I have with the devs is why numbers aren't played around with more with the actually players of the game when it is nearly unanimous that there is an issue with something. Until now, and still continuing now, they push off balancing the existing content quite a while, even if the issues at hand don't require massive reworking.
I think the game would turn out much better in the end if they just posted a thread every now and then about something they, or the players of the game, see as an issue, simply stating their opinion on the matter and asking for feedback on what specifically what the players have an issue with relating to a topic, and how they'd like it fixed. Preferably selecting a number of ideas recommended by the players/thought up by TW employees and putting up a poll on what should be done to fix the issue.
Example: A perk has imbalance that can be fixed in a number of unique ways
A TWI community manager starts a thread on the forums officially stating that they recognize the issue, and they state in the OP post, some ideas they came up with to fix it. Players respond to it by supporting or making tweaks to these ideas to fix it, or submitting their own detailed solution if they don't like those solutions or would prefer something else done instead. Soon after, TWI makes tweaks to their original ideas based on player feedback and put them on a list, and they include the separate solutions that players posted that they find most reasonable/ Then host a poll with all of these solutions (TWI's ideas, some tweaked by player feedback + player ideas that are viable) for the players to decide which solution to the issue. This way the perk will end up being fun in a way that a majority would agree with, the community will feel more connected to the development as they should in an EA, and people are much less likely to be disappointed in how this rework is handled(not to say that past reworks weren't handled well).
What is done for new updates now (from my knowledge; post gunslinger):
New Perks:
Weapons:
-4 weapon models + knife and grenade
-their firing/exploding animations, whether or not they need to be manually made or recorded and synced to the weapon's in-game model
-possibly new models for their projectiles(if they're projectile weapons
-sounds (recorded if it is a real weapon by acquiring the real weapon and tweaked by a sound engineer, or just made from scratch if it isn't)
-class files for the weapon and it's projectile (very very simple if the weapon simple deals damage by shooting normal bullets and doesn't have any interested effects like firing projectiles that are effected by gravity or have an arm distance or anything else)
The perk itself:
-a class file including code for all of its skills and variables for its passive abilities (work it entails varies on complexity of the skills the perk has; bonus damage perks are very very easy to code, some special effects aren't, but I'd say each skill so far has a limit on how hard it can really be to make that isn't all too high)
Etc:
-a possible 3rd boss, although no official word has been said about another from my knowledge
-new zeds, although they previously said they planned on experimenting with new zeds after the full release of the game
-new single weapons or characters, most likely dlc or requiring something to unlock them (even as simple as liking their page on steam). For the work it takes to make weapons see above and keep in mind that melee weapons that you just swing around and do nothing else(like the zweihander) require substantially less work to make. For characters, they need a body head and first person arms model, usually 4 different outfit textures, size/offset for cosmetics they can wear, and their voiced lines
-new maps(usually 2) which include:
-many many textures and modeled structures. all with collision frames
-broken and unbroken versions of certain things such as destructable
lights and furniture
-lighting
-combining meshes of each room to minimize number of separate objects
in the map, which improves performance (this step is fairly easy)
-background scenery which are usually 2d made to look good at a
distance
-sky textures
-putting it all together so the map has an obvious theme that fits what
they want for it, and so that is challenging, but also fun. All the official
maps have the theme and looks, but making it well designed isn't
something that all the maps share. I'd say farm has the best gameplay
design
Besides all that stuff in "Etc", I'd say a new perk in a month isn't an unrealistic expectation if there are like 30 people working on it, they have access to the equipment they need when they need it, and they're working 40 hour shift. For a perk like sharpshooter where their guns are all just normal guns that fire ordinary bullets with flat damage, I could probably code the entire perk class file and all its weapon class files/their projectiles myself in a week or two so I doubt that's what's holding them up; it's like 2-5 pages of code for the perk, and less than 1 for each weapon. In guessing the weapons are the biggest holdup, which models, textures, animations, and sounds.
Everything above this line is to expand on this thread, stating to unhappy players what goes into updates. The list is most likely incomplete
All that being said, I understand why gunslinger and the previous updates took as long as they did. the only issue I have with the devs is why numbers aren't played around with more with the actually players of the game when it is nearly unanimous that there is an issue with something. Until now, and still continuing now, they push off balancing the existing content quite a while, even if the issues at hand don't require massive reworking.
I think the game would turn out much better in the end if they just posted a thread every now and then about something they, or the players of the game, see as an issue, simply stating their opinion on the matter and asking for feedback on what specifically what the players have an issue with relating to a topic, and how they'd like it fixed. Preferably selecting a number of ideas recommended by the players/thought up by TW employees and putting up a poll on what should be done to fix the issue.
Example: A perk has imbalance that can be fixed in a number of unique ways
A TWI community manager starts a thread on the forums officially stating that they recognize the issue, and they state in the OP post, some ideas they came up with to fix it. Players respond to it by supporting or making tweaks to these ideas to fix it, or submitting their own detailed solution if they don't like those solutions or would prefer something else done instead. Soon after, TWI makes tweaks to their original ideas based on player feedback and put them on a list, and they include the separate solutions that players posted that they find most reasonable/ Then host a poll with all of these solutions (TWI's ideas, some tweaked by player feedback + player ideas that are viable) for the players to decide which solution to the issue. This way the perk will end up being fun in a way that a majority would agree with, the community will feel more connected to the development as they should in an EA, and people are much less likely to be disappointed in how this rework is handled(not to say that past reworks weren't handled well).
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I never said I agreed with the decision, just that it made sense from a development stand point. Honestly, though, even if that was the case, I still would have kept micros on the back burner until release just because of the inevitable PR backlash that would ensue.
Even though I understand that Tripwire doesn't want to set any specific goals or timelines, at least a rough estimation would go a long way to put people's concerns at ease. If they just said something like "Major content updates come every 2-3 months" people might still be miffed at the slow development, but at least they would know when to expect new stuff and not get scared into thinking the game is never going to get finished, which is the #1 reason why Early Access gets such a bad reputation.
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Generally agree with this, having most classes be strong is what should be going on with Kf2 as well as the classes' specializations acctually mattering. (A demo should be very significantly stronger with demo weapons than other classes. not marginally stronger)
Right now everything is homogenized with no specializations and nerfing is the name of the game rather than making every class good in their own way, which goes hand in hand with specialization.
I expect Support to be well rounded against big zeds, Commando to be good against trash, Firebug to be good against trash, Gunslinger is trash killling too, Zerker is good at Scrakes and to a lesser extent FP, Demo is the king of killing FP and doing damage to the boss. And medic exists to do minor damage and heal the team so they are kept alive.
Sharpshooter is an all purpose big zed killer.
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I just want KF2 to be as good as KF1. Unfortunately what I see since April is only the consolisation and homogenisation of the game. The devs are trying really hard to make the game appeal to the new generation. And they are succeeding in that task by making it brainless shooter with no strategy needed or any kind of skills except probably running backwards and shooting, adding crates and keys with RNG drops and all that. Kids love it and the game will probably keep doing ok due to that but to me and other people that have 1000 of hours in KF1 and are old(ish) like 30 years old - we want what made KF1 so great and it's not what KF2 is and will ever be.
So I gave up. I played over 400 hours but I don't feel like playing anymore even with new maps and perks or whatever since there is no difference except that you use other tools to kill zeds.
I am not angry and I don't hate. I'll still probably play a few matches when the game is released but if TWI don't do a COMPLETE OVERHAUL of the game and add THONS of new stuff - and I don't mean cosmetic content and weapons - I mean zombies that can climb buildings, cars and trucks, characters that can go over a rock, for christ sake, or car or even climb on top of a truck. I feel bad for KF2 seeing it's potential and how TWI are trying to make it a milk cow for their company instead of a great game like KF1.
I wish them all the best but for me personally KF2 is a fail except graphics and gore it offers nothing. There are games done in the 90s that are better with more freedom. I don't like KF2 because I feel claustorphobic - really small maps - getting even smaller (farmhouse), teleporting zeds, RNG crates, no strategy, no skills needed to be good.
Look at a game called STRAFE. It has 90s graphics but the movement, the way it's played the skill needed to play makes it freaking AWESOME. It's not all about graphics, this is why KF1 sometimes have more players than KF2.
The only thing I am sad about is that with KF2 being what it is, the last chance for good games and honnest business practices in gaming have died.
But well ... there are plenty games out there Dying Light is goregeous (lol) with a stand alone expansion on it's way out on the second of Fabruary and no microtransactions and Steam Workshop that is PURE AWESOMENESS. Strafe will kick ***, and plenty other games that won't have RNG crates and will require more than just have weapons and shoot straight and from time to time the whole team shoots at one thing simultaionously.
We will see what the future brings, but for me KF2 is just another tittle in my indless Steam library that I will probbaly play with some friends sometime and not at all what KF1 was trying to get 100% acheavements and spending thousands of hours ...
So I gave up. I played over 400 hours but I don't feel like playing anymore even with new maps and perks or whatever since there is no difference except that you use other tools to kill zeds.
I am not angry and I don't hate. I'll still probably play a few matches when the game is released but if TWI don't do a COMPLETE OVERHAUL of the game and add THONS of new stuff - and I don't mean cosmetic content and weapons - I mean zombies that can climb buildings, cars and trucks, characters that can go over a rock, for christ sake, or car or even climb on top of a truck. I feel bad for KF2 seeing it's potential and how TWI are trying to make it a milk cow for their company instead of a great game like KF1.
I wish them all the best but for me personally KF2 is a fail except graphics and gore it offers nothing. There are games done in the 90s that are better with more freedom. I don't like KF2 because I feel claustorphobic - really small maps - getting even smaller (farmhouse), teleporting zeds, RNG crates, no strategy, no skills needed to be good.
Look at a game called STRAFE. It has 90s graphics but the movement, the way it's played the skill needed to play makes it freaking AWESOME. It's not all about graphics, this is why KF1 sometimes have more players than KF2.
The only thing I am sad about is that with KF2 being what it is, the last chance for good games and honnest business practices in gaming have died.
But well ... there are plenty games out there Dying Light is goregeous (lol) with a stand alone expansion on it's way out on the second of Fabruary and no microtransactions and Steam Workshop that is PURE AWESOMENESS. Strafe will kick ***, and plenty other games that won't have RNG crates and will require more than just have weapons and shoot straight and from time to time the whole team shoots at one thing simultaionously.
We will see what the future brings, but for me KF2 is just another tittle in my indless Steam library that I will probbaly play with some friends sometime and not at all what KF1 was trying to get 100% acheavements and spending thousands of hours ...
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Youre wrong. KF2 has almost always had more players than KF1. Even during the very end of each update period when most players have the achievements and are waiting for the new update!
Small maps!?? I guess I need a new pair of specs. I expect youre waiting for modders to make more maps like Cube where its just an open area to frag zeds from range!?
But I agree with you on some things. There is some strategy involved even. And its not just some brainless shooter entirely. Not if you want to win. At the moment though most players just play like that because there are so few reliable mechanics to defeat a wave, esp. the biggies. It cant be a surprise if most of the time they are getting wiped!
And about MTs... Im sure some games lose alot of their player-base because of it. But those ppl get replaced by another breed! Im afraid thats just the way it is. So many of the ppl on my friends list added from KF1 days just dont play KF2 or havent even bought it! I think that says it all! Still at least you can be happy that KF1 will most likely get supported some more through the extra revenue gained through KF2! Maybe. Even its not as much as it used to be!
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You can not care how hard it is for them to work on a game with a finite amount of manpower, but it's still going to take just as much time as it took before you didnt care to make the game.
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I noticed the same thing after somebody else mentioned it. I think they made some of the perks as strong as they were because there weren't perks out yet to deal with big zeds, so hopefully on release of sharpshooter they'll nerf most other classes' damage to bigger enemies so there's more to it than "whenever there's a big zed, everyone look at it and shoot" or the problem which I've seen in the game "if we don't have this specific perk on the team we lose". Each perk should have specific things they do/can kill, and there should be at least 2 perks for each thing to do/kill so no one perk is absolutely necessary for team survival(I'm looking at you medic).
If they don't fix this by release of the game I'll prob just come out with a mod that does it myself. All it would do is basically everything I say should be done in the next update in this thread
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?p=1466535#post1466535
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