Here is some context into the amount of work that goes into a game like KF2.

[LiquidArrow]

A lot of work goes into game development. So here is some context into the amount of work that goes into a game like KF2 and why we as a community should not be so negative and unforgiving.

Lets talk about the big one first, animations.

Animations:

• The amount of animations required for a game like KF2 to feel fluid is absolutely ridiculous. Here is an example list.
• Zed movement
• Zed reaction to being shot and melee'd on each part of their body for every type of gun
• Different animations for each difficulty and for each different attack on each difficulty
• Each individual zed having different animations created for them across everything mentioned above. This is hundreds of animations per zed.
• Reloading for every gun including new ones for dual wielding and unique perk reloads. Also those fancy reload animations when you have a fully loaded weapon. Also wiping off blood from melee weapons.
• Reaction to recoil from guns (take a look at how the characters arms move when shooting a heavy recoil weapon)
• Aiming down the sight for each gun
• Melee animations along with bash animations for each weapon.
• Individual animations for each character

that doesn't even cover everything. I think the community forgets how fluid this game feels and how huge an achievement that is to accomplish.

Gore System:

• If you don't appreciate this please play KF2 and pay attention to how the gore works and then go play KF1.
• Every zeds individual body parts can be shot off and blown to tiny little bits
• Splatter map system so the environment actually gets affected by the gore and changes as the game progresses
• new materials, giblet meshes and much much more has to go into actually getting the gib system to work. This goes for every individual zed.
• Maps:
• Hundreds of assets have to be made for each new map.
• Each map must go through rigorous testing to make it exploit proof. If you find one that is one of the 50+ ways they fixed to exploit a map.
• Outpost and Manor and all the other maps have an extreme attention to detail. If you open up the SDK or just walk around you will know what I am talking about.
• SDK for the community. They let the community make maps for the game and welcome it. Games like Payday 2 suffer from not letting the community make maps or mods for the game and they suffer while KF2's creative community makes the game thrive. I think we forget how rare it is to have a developer that fully supports modding for their game and actually make it a part of the games experience.

Sounds:

• Each character has a large amount of lines and voice acting that must be done for them. There are also new lines created for each map in individual areas. Characters react to how dark it is among other things happening in the match. This includes being low on ammo, needing dosh, having a lot of dosh, needing health, reaction to the guns being used, and many more.
• Each gun has its own unique sounds that takes quite a bit to make for reloading and shooting.
• Zed sounds and sounds that play when being shot
• Enviromental sfx for levels. turn off the music to listen to all of them. Keep in mind each surface needs sounds make for walking/running on them.

Balance:

This is very, very hard to get right with the amount of factors each perk and zed along with movement speed give. Not only does TW need to make sure the zeds are balanced they have to make sure each perk is balanced and feels equal. That is a MASSIVE amount of iteration and work that needs to be done and is why KF1 feels balanced now after years of work.

All of these things have to come together to get right and the balance will not be complete until ALL perks have been released. That is when we will truly see the balancing phase start. We are still in the content phase and the game will drastically change because of that, queue the whole early access thing.

Summary:

This doesn't even come close to covering everything but I hope the point I was trying to prove is expressed with the above.

A lot of work goes into every part of a game. Nothing is easy and it takes great care and time to make a great game.

 

[UserSD]

This may sound cold, especially to developers, but the reality is...

None of this ultimately matters.


No really, it doesn't, and it's very easy to understand why - People who are not inside the development process don't care about methodology (nor should they), they care about results in what they understand to be a timely fashion.
With Early Access and Alpha Access, as well as Beta Access, available for some time people have known how much time a game usually takes to be developed, how much time it usually takes to make substantial changes.

The fact is, bigger and more complex games have proven to have a dev time significantly faster than KF2, whether in terms of content or balance.

Now there might or might not be a reason for the development time of KF2 (small team, small studio, low budget, setbacks, etc..)

But the reality is that people are just saying that the games development is slow, because the game's development IS slow compared to a lot of other games.
Regardless of the reason or reasons why it is slow compared to other products, it doesn't ultimately change the fact that it is.

To further drive the point forward, while most other EA releases have been doing a steady stream of content and balance patches, KF2 pulled a 180 and decided to cram everything into large "content updates". This is unusual compared to other popular games, gives an illusion of even longer dev time, and will of course make people asks questions and point out how weird it is, which is again foreseeable and understandable.

Few and far in between balance patches will obviously not balance the game, which leads to the players obviously pointing out the game is unbalanced and saying that it needs work. Said work however, won't be implemented until months after generally.

All of the negativity (not only on the forums, but everywhere including friends and fellow players) is just a byproduct of their development philosophy. If they're doing it like this however they probably believe the good will outweigh the bad ultimately, and being a fan of the franchise, I do hope they're right.

 

[Jr175]

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is for? No disrespect to TWI because the first 3 bold points were done great imo, save for a few instances, but the most important aspect that should always be is the fourth bold thing, the balance. These animations and graphic fidelity won't matter to the people who will play over hundreds to thousands of hours where the same animations and textures will be seen over and over again. The MEAT system will be put through it's paces, and even the sounds themselves will be recognizable without much thought after using certain weapons or fighting certain zeds for a short time of about 2~4 hours.

My main point anyways is: No matter how much scrutiny each of these systems receive, only the gameplay's criticisms will matter in the long run. If KF wasn't as simple of a game, then people's complaints about how dumb something sounds or how exaggerated something looks might be more justifiable.

 

[HeatSurge]

You realize there's tools for all this however, right?

It's not like they're rigging everything and animating it by hand or from scratch. It's still a lot of work, yes, but it's not like "here's some metal, make a car." The point of using an extremely well-developed and polished engine like Unreal is for the tools. So it's more like, here are some tools to shape metal with, here are some casting furnaces, and here are some nuts and bolts, and here's a sample car and here's how it was made, now go design your own or even make alterations starting with the existing one.

 

[Gregs2k2]

Add "almost new engine development" to the list as well.

None of this ultimately matters.

Spoken like a true customer. You are, in a sense, correct, from a customer standpoint, it's not really "our problem" since cash has changed hands, there's an expectation of the product. People want their money's worth. Which is fine, to a point.

Early Access is just that and people want things now, not later. It's human nature to wants things now rather than having to wait.... again, it comes down to expectations. One of the many flaws with Early Access, in my opinion.

 

[weeman2412]

Add "almost new engine development" to the list as well.



Spoken like a true customer. You are, in a sense, correct, from a customer standpoint, it's not really "our problem" since cash has changed hands, there's an expectation of the product. People want their money's worth. Which is fine, to a point.

Early Access is just that and people want things now, not later. It's human nature to wants things now rather than having to wait.... again, it comes down to expectations. One of the many flaws with Early Access, in my opinion.

Almost new is a real stretch. That's like saying every Bethesda games has been using an "almost new" engine since Elder Scrolls Oblivion.

Bethesda is using the same engine that already exists and it's called gamebyro, and Tripwire is using the same engine that already exists and that is called Unreal Engine 3.

You can tack on whatever version number (Unreal Engine "3.5") or name change you want (gamebyro is now called creation engine), the reality is still the same. Neither companies are using ground breaking new technology that doesn't already exist in the first place.

Now if killing floor 2 suddenly looks like something that isn't unreal, then Tripwire may deserve some credit for their efforts. Killing Floor 2 still looks like unreal engine 3, plays like most first person unreal engine 3 games, and is shallow as most unreal engine 3 games.

Lots of fancy addon tech, no substance to the gameplay. Typical of most unreal engine 3 games.

Aside from the fancy pants 60 fps animation, and various shilling of nvidia technology, what exactly has Tripwire done that separates Killing Floor 2 from Unreal Tournament 3? Many people have been very happy with Killing Floor 1 despite it's clearly indie flavor in comparison to Killing Floor 2. Tripwire is simply wasting their time implementing things that don't matter. Reinventing the wheel doesn't sell games. Doing what gamers perceive as fun and necessary such as balance and nuanced gameplay sells games. What tripwire has done so far is the complete opposite of this; implementing flashy visuals, new sounds (which all sounds like trash), neglecting balance, removing nuanced gameplay such as scrake arm dodging.

Furthermore, how does it take more than 4 months for game balancing? Is tripwire's coding so convoluted that it takes that much time to punch in numbers and calculation for a quick game balance hotfix? Explain that. I almost fell out of my chair when an update ~3+ months after Incineration and Detonate update and the only change on demolition was the nuke radius. Absolutely ridiculous. Must be hard putting a "*2" multiplier in to the grenade launcher damage equation.

Oh and gore? Don't make me laugh, the gore system is hardly better than Killing Floor 1. What's the point of gore on death, I'm not looking at the ground when I play. If Tripwire makes gore in such a way where you can blast zed body parts off while they are still alive, then Gore will actually be relevant.

 

[Swift-Brutal-Death]

You realize there's tools for all this however, right?

It's not like they're rigging everything and animating it by hand or from scratch. It's still a lot of work, yes, but it's not like "here's some metal, make a car." The point of using an extremely well-developed and polished engine like Unreal is for the tools. So it's more like, here are some tools to shape metal with, here are some casting furnaces, and here are some nuts and bolts, and here's a sample car and here's how it was made, now go design your own or even make alterations starting with the existing one.

Yeah, there are tools for this stuff. Most of these tools have been crafted and are ready for use. That doesn't mean they all magically create stuff. Everything is still quite time consuming.

 

[vealck]

Yeah, people who never tried developing anything themselves totally underestimate the amount of work that has to be put into it. And it goes for everything, from digital photography to planting potatoes.

But let's be honest: it's only a counterargument for the ignorant bunch who are impatient for updates and accuse devs of laziness.

It's irrelevant, however, when we talk about the quality of the stuff provided. If something is sub-par quality-wise, the amount of work that went into it is not a redeeming point. And in that case, sadly, complaining is the only way to get any improvement. "Aaww, you tried, we'll put it on the fridge" approach won't get the customer the product he desires.

So, yeah. Let's complain about everything we don't like, as this is the feedback data that devs need to make things better.
But, at the same time let's try to understand that changing some things is really difficult, development process takes substantial amount of time, and you won't get everything fixed immediately.

 

[Quadruplesword]

Just saying, this thread is pretty much a ticking time bomb for a flame war.

Back on topic, my only major complaint with the way Tripwire has decided to handle development of this game is the fact that balance patches usually coincide with major updates, and we might get a few shortly after that, but then it's back to the waiting game for another 3 months. The reason why I quit playing shortly after release and didn't pick it back up until the Incinerate 'N Detonate update was because the one perk I wanted to play, Berserker, was completely underpowered.

Now, my favorite perk, Support, is completely underpowered, and Hans is a completely cheap fight that almost always ends with a wipe. I'm willing to give it a pass this time because of the holidays, but I might just put this game back on the shelf for another 3 months if the problems it currently has don't get addressed. I don't want to sound impatient, but I can't motivate myself to play if there are things in the game that make it unfun to play (a.k.a Hans).

 

[Trotskygrad]

Yeah, people who never tried developing anything themselves totally underestimate the amount of work that has to be put into it. And it goes for everything, from digital photography to planting potatoes.

But let's be honest: it's only a counterargument for the ignorant bunch who are impatient for updates and accuse devs of laziness.

It's irrelevant, however, when we talk about the quality of the stuff provided. If something is sub-par quality-wise, the amount of work that went into it is not a redeeming point. And in that case, sadly, complaining is the only way to get any improvement. "Aaww, you tried, we'll put it on the fridge" approach won't get the customer the product he desires.

So, yeah. Let's complain about everything we don't like, as this is the feedback data that devs need to make things better.
But, at the same time let's try to understand that changing some things is really difficult, development process takes substantial amount of time, and you won't get everything fixed immediately.

yeah the balance could really do with some work and beta testing. I appreciate the love put into animations and attempts to create new mechanics (knockdown must have been really intensive, animations wise) but in the end it comes down to whether a game is fun to play. And if the weapons aren't balanced it doesn't matter how cool the animations are on the subpar ones, they won't get used outside of lower difficulties. A truly balanced game is what we want in the end and what the sensible people complaining are asking for.

 

[Gregs2k2]

Just saying, this thread is pretty much a ticking time bomb for a flame war.

I have faith that things can be discussed in a civil manner without resorting to flaming. The thread will be promptly closed if things do heat up.

 

[random]

Just saying, this thread is pretty much a ticking time bomb for a flame war.

Back on topic, my only major complaint with the way Tripwire has decided to handle development of this game is the fact that balance patches usually coincide with major updates, and we might get a few shortly after that, but then it's back to the waiting game for another 3 months. The reason why I quit playing shortly after release and didn't pick it back up until the Incinerate 'N Detonate update was because the one perk I wanted to play, Berserker, was completely underpowered.

Now, my favorite perk, Support, is completely underpowered, and Hans is a completely cheap fight that almost always ends with a wipe. I'm willing to give it a pass this time because of the holidays, but I might just put this game back on the shelf for another 3 months if the problems it currently has don't get addressed. I don't want to sound impatient, but I can't motivate myself to play if there are things in the game that make it unfun to play (a.k.a Hans).

I'm with you there, i also wish they would separate big content updates and balance patches, it could take more work but i think the end result would be better, maybe they can't afford that or there is some other reason, i'm patient so i can wait, the annoying part is have no idea what you are waiting for.

 

[silverlighted]

Yeah, people who never tried developing anything themselves totally underestimate the amount of work that has to be put into it. And it goes for everything, from digital photography to planting potatoes.

But let's be honest: it's only a counterargument for the ignorant bunch who are impatient for updates and accuse devs of laziness.

It's irrelevant, however, when we talk about the quality of the stuff provided. If something is sub-par quality-wise, the amount of work that went into it is not a redeeming point. And in that case, sadly, complaining is the only way to get any improvement. "Aaww, you tried, we'll put it on the fridge" approach won't get the customer the product he desires.

So, yeah. Let's complain about everything we don't like, as this is the feedback data that devs need to make things better.
But, at the same time let's try to understand that changing some things is really difficult, development process takes substantial amount of time, and you won't get everything fixed immediately.

Agree with the above post.

 

[Survii]

Must be hard putting a "*2" multiplier in to the grenade launcher damage equation.

Yeah, Tripwire really need to actually BOTHER with balancing, what they are doing at the moment is "leave balancing for the future, focus on bigger issues" when it would take one HOUR at the longest to balance everything (or atleast try to) through looking through the forums to see what balancing needs to be done and implement it. "Hmm... lets up the AoE of the Grenade launcher by 30%" doesn't take half a year to code into a game, and if it IS badly balanced, change it within a week and see how the community likes that. I think they just like saving everything up for a huge update as it can be a punch for advertisement on the Steam Store etc. I think balancing should be an exception and can be done in minor updates so we aren't left with an extremely OP *beserker* for months as they refuse to update the game inbetween huge updates (minor patches after the large updates aside).

 

[Bigguns 93]

A lot of work goes into every part of a game. Nothing is easy and it takes great care and time to make a great game.

I had no idea it was that much work. We should probably pay Tripwire some money for all that effort. Wait, we did.

 

[UserSD]

Add "almost new engine development" to the list as well.



Spoken like a true customer. You are, in a sense, correct, from a customer standpoint, it's not really "our problem" since cash has changed hands, there's an expectation of the product. People want their money's worth. Which is fine, to a point.

Early Access is just that and people want things now, not later. It's human nature to wants things now rather than having to wait.... again, it comes down to expectations. One of the many flaws with Early Access, in my opinion.

Yes, that was my point. It's a cold, and honestly unfair (for the devs) point of view, but it is the point of view that is probably shared by the brunt of their EA costumers.

I don't buy EA titles except for rare exceptions. I made an exception for KF2, because I did really end up enjoying KF1 and RO2/RS (even with all the problems especially in the beginning, they eventually turned out to be some of my favorite FPS games).

So I've made my peace that TW has their own methods on the development process, and that some their methods are turning out to be a little more time consuming than most other developer's. As long as they finish the game before I retire and it turns out I like it, I'm good.

Now that's no to say I won't, every once in a while, give an opinion about something I think should be handled differently (for example, the frequency of balance patches, or lack thereof).

But ultimately I'm aware that it's just an opinion of mine, not something to force down on anyone's throat. I would be glad if said opinion was considered, but I'm indifferent if it isn't. It is after all, their game.

 

[bstm300]

I had no idea it was that much work. We should probably pay Tripwire some money for all that effort. Wait, we did.

This is in a nutshell invalidates most of the justifications that have been offered for the slow development cycle in this thread. We paid for the game already. You bet your behind we have a right to complain about the slow pace of development. The game feels like 1/4 of a game in it's current state and I won't be recommending kf2, in it's current state, to any of my friends.

So now that makes two games that fooled me into thinking they'd be amazing-first day z and now kf2. Yes, I know I'm responsible for my own actions and I should have known better, given what I understand about human nature. It's a fact in life that once somebody has been paid for a service they haven't fully rendered to another party, that person has very little incentive to finish whatever is left to finish of the job or the assignment. The same applies to the videogame industry; the new trend is to release a beta stage game and make millions off of it. Once a development company has made those millions, why bother doing regular updates? Where is the inventive to continue working diligently?

If I were on the board of directors or CEO of that development company, I would tell the dev team to put the game on life support and release an update every 2-3 months and then redirect the rest of the dev team to make a new game. That's not me being insulting or sarcastic; that's just how MBA's think. There's little money to made in fully developed games anymore sadly.

 

[Quadruplesword]

Yes, that was my point. It's a cold, and honestly unfair (for the devs) point of view, but it is the point of view that is probably shared by the brunt of their EA costumers.

I don't buy EA titles except for rare exceptions. I made an exception for KF2, because I did really end up enjoying KF1 and RO2/RS (even with all the problems especially in the beginning, they eventually turned out to be some of my favorite FPS games).

So I've made my peace that TW has their own methods on the development process, and that some their methods are turning out to be a little more time consuming than most other developer's. As long as they finish the game before I retire and it turns out I like it, I'm good.

Now that's no to say I won't, every once in a while, give an opinion about something I think should be handled differently (for example, the frequency of balance patches, or lack thereof).

But ultimately I'm aware that it's just an opinion of mine, not something to force down on anyone's throat. I would be glad if said opinion was considered, but I'm indifferent if it isn't. It is after all, their game.

I'll give Tripwire credit for one thing. Updates for this game have come a lot faster than they have for their other titles. I remember during the days of KF1 that we got an update maybe twice a year at best. I just wish they'd put more time towards balance patches, since an unbalanced game is not fun to play, and a game that's not fun to play means less players, which ultimately leads to pointless arguments and vitriol filling the forums and less feedback for the devs to go off of. It's a loss for everyone. They have said that they plan to do some more waves of balance patches during the early part of this year. I hope they hold true to that.

Ultimately, though, I don't think the slow pace of development is because of laziness. Tripwire is just really slow at releasing updates.

 

[weeman2412]

I'll give Tripwire credit for one thing. Updates for this game have come a lot faster than they have for their other titles. I remember during the days of KF1 that we got an update maybe twice a year at best.

KF1 was a done, fun, and relatively balanced game on release. Every update after that was extra. Meanwhile, KF2 is a broken mess at release and only became more broken and messy over time.

 

[random]

people sometimes expect too much in little time with no consideration for circumstances, and a lot of times that can lead to mediocre work, and i'm not talking videogames only.

im completely fine with the pace for amount of content considering the size of the team, and i dont mind to wait as long as they do a good job.

sure i have some concerns about gameplay, but a lot of those have more to do with system choices than amount of work.