Especially if you grow up playing full-contact soccer with deliberate tackling, chocking, clothes-lining etc. .... like I did. You tune in to these games as it just makes you laugh at how transparent they are.
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[Sport] Euro 2012
- Thread starter husbert
- Start date
Quoted for truth.
And womens foodball (not that I've seen any in recent years) used to be like that...as odd as that sounds.
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First of all, as I said before, from what I recall, every time a Ukrainian player fell, there was some contact. It is sometimes hard to determine how much pain a certain foul caused, especially if viewed in super slowmotion.Well, I'm not a Swedish fan, I'm a sports fan.. and when a guy is brushed up against and then rolls around on the floor with the most excruciating look on his face like his leg was just amputated - that's outside of the sport. Ukraine was doing that throughout the game.
Your leg touches another guys leg in soccer and you might as well bring out the stretcher. There should be rules against that sort of faking. Seriously, it damages the integrity and watchability of the sport. For once I'd like to watch a footie game from beginning to end where someone doesnt try to squeeze a card out of the ref by acting like an idiot.
Anyway, GG Ukraine.
I'm not saying that they sometimes didn't put on a bit of an act, but it was nowhere near as overboard as the acting you see in Spanish, Portuguese or Italian games.
From what I hear, faking injuries is common place in the NFL and is viewed as a valid tactic (don't quote me on this, as I don't really follow NFL, it's just what I've heard).
In any case, these comparisons are out of place. In two of the sports you mentioned the players wear a lot more protective gear. Also, in all the sports you mentioned, there is a lot more physical contact allowed, which means players train for it, expect it and are more prepared for it.
There's a difference between expecting heavy physical contact when you see an opponent coming at you, bracing yourself and taking the hit, and between trying to avoid your opponent, only to have him kick you in the knee-cap, step on your calf, or knee you in the back, without you expecting it.
With all that said, I'm very much against diving and watch for it in every game, which makes it all the more strange to me that you felt Ukraine were diving often, especially since you said you were not a Swedish fan.
PS! Please let's not turn this into a X sport is better than Y sport discussion.
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They all do it. Every game so far has had some "oh I'm hurt" incident where the replays clearly show minimal contact or contact in a completely different area to where contact did occur. It's just frustrating!
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Yeah, most teams dive or try to draw out the game if they are ahead. I'm just surprised REZ is singling out Ukraine, since I really didn't see them go overboard with it.
But as I said in my previous post, sometimes, when viewed in slow motion, it makes it look as if the player is faking it, since they seem to react to the contact very late. This is of course due to the fact that you're not viewing the incident in real time.
Other times, it's not the contact with the other player, but the fall to the ground that causes harm. If you're running at full speed and someone trips you, pushes you, or steps on your foot, the sudden loss of balance can cause you to loose footing in a way that you cause serious injury to yourself.
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Well, Lightsaber, I'm not trying to make you feel defensive about it. It's not your duty to defend these guys, but you have to admit it's rampant and it's totally unsportsmanlike. Ukraine may have not taken dives without any contact, but let's be real, they sure did roll around on the ground like they were shot.. plenty of times, from beginning to end, with the specific goal of pulling a card from the refs.
And yes, the comparison in contact from the different sports is acceptable, because the point is how much these guys overreact specifically to pull a card out of the ref. You know it's true because they get right up and keep playing like nothing happened. The reason they do it is because it's part of the mindset of the refs - it works!
There should be stiff rules opposing the acting that goes on after contact to the effect that the guy who was injured literally has to be carted off the field and cannot return to the game for there to be a card, his injury needs to be that bad, and if you are caught faking, you are removed from the game for unsportsmanlike conduct. There would be no more faking.
The only reason I'm talking about Ukraine is because that's the game I just watched.. they all do it. I'm not saying Ukraine is alone in this. It's a problem that affects the sport as a whole.
And yes, the comparison in contact from the different sports is acceptable, because the point is how much these guys overreact specifically to pull a card out of the ref. You know it's true because they get right up and keep playing like nothing happened. The reason they do it is because it's part of the mindset of the refs - it works!
There should be stiff rules opposing the acting that goes on after contact to the effect that the guy who was injured literally has to be carted off the field and cannot return to the game for there to be a card, his injury needs to be that bad, and if you are caught faking, you are removed from the game for unsportsmanlike conduct. There would be no more faking.
The only reason I'm talking about Ukraine is because that's the game I just watched.. they all do it. I'm not saying Ukraine is alone in this. It's a problem that affects the sport as a whole.
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I agree with everything you said, except for this part. Maybe the wording is just weird and I'm misinterpreting you, but if not, then this part is just silly.
So in order for a foul to warrant a card, the tackled player has to be injured so heavily, that they have to be carried off on a stretcher? This is unimaginable. This would mean there would be no uninjured players left on a team before any season or even a tournament could run its course.
And if a player is tackled, falls to the ground, doesn't immediately get up, since he is still fighting the pain, they shouldn't be allowed to return to the game?
I get it, diving is bad, trying to unjustly get other players carded is bad, but it's equally as bad to allow defenders to get too crazy with their tackles, without having to worry about getting carded.
The solution I see is that there should be an extra ref (or two) reviewing replays and then passing that information on to the head referee. He in turn would then be allowed to either yellow or red card a player who was determined to have dived. The reason diving happens is because the head ref is unable to see everything, even with the help of assistant refs. If they were allowed to use replays, fooling the refs would be much more difficult.
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It was poorly worded. What needs to happen is a foul needs to be called a foul because the action is in itself a foul, not because of the act put on by the player after the incident in question. Cards are currently given based on the Academy Award worthiness of the display of pain the player can portray.
What I was trying to say before is that the player should actually be injured for it to be called a foul, which is of course the wrong angle to take because a player can in fact be injured having not been fouled at all. An injury does not constitute a foul, but this is in fact how the refs currently decide to pull a card in many situations - they base it on the level of displayed pain (which is often feigned). So I was wrong when approaching it from that point of view.
A better solution, and I would make this argument for basically all sports where referees/judges are tasked with making a judgement call, would be an instant replay review.. regardless if it slows the game down, it is more important to get the call right. As you said, a seperate entity reviewing instant replay and making the call based on what actually happened; I totally agree.
What I was trying to say before is that the player should actually be injured for it to be called a foul, which is of course the wrong angle to take because a player can in fact be injured having not been fouled at all. An injury does not constitute a foul, but this is in fact how the refs currently decide to pull a card in many situations - they base it on the level of displayed pain (which is often feigned). So I was wrong when approaching it from that point of view.
A better solution, and I would make this argument for basically all sports where referees/judges are tasked with making a judgement call, would be an instant replay review.. regardless if it slows the game down, it is more important to get the call right. As you said, a seperate entity reviewing instant replay and making the call based on what actually happened; I totally agree.
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I too thought that the Ukrainian players were frail as hell that game, so it's not just you REZ.
Ukraine seemed to be the better team overall though, but hell, what do I know? I just wasted an hour and a half on it because my friends watched it.
Ukraine seemed to be the better team overall though, but hell, what do I know? I just wasted an hour and a half on it because my friends watched it.
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This is not the case, not always.
For example, lets say an attacking player is in a 1v1 situation with the goalkeeper, a defenders sprints after him, tackles him from behind, and essentially robs the other team of the goal. The foul may not be very severe, in terms of pain caused, but the situation in which it is made dictates a severe punishment.
Or another example. One team is attacking with a large amount of players, and has the ball stolen. The other team has the opportunity for a quick counter attack, so the team who had the ball stolen from them decides to do a quick foul to stop the attack, so that their defense can reorganize. Again, in this situation, the foul doesn't have to be severe, yet it often still warrants a card.
But of course, even in those cases, many players roll around on the ground and act as if they had just lost a leg, in order to get their opponents carded.
So as we both agree, instant replays are the key here. But sadly, the guys in charge of FIFA feel that this would somehow take something away from the "beauty of the game" and would slow it down. Silly arguments really, since those instant replays could be viewed by another party and then quickly forwarded to the head ref via his headset.
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Come on Czech's! Join in and help dump Greece out of the tourny as fast as possible.
Sense and FIFA.... Don't try to combine the two... Unless you have boatloads of money.
Sense and FIFA.... Don't try to combine the two... Unless you have boatloads of money.
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Hah! What a blitz goal that was! Go Czechs! (although for Poles a draw would be optimal).
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Fick mich! I barely managed to type in this post and that's two-nil! Holy heck!
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Fick mich! I barely managed to type in this post and that's two-nil! Holy heck!
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Lightsaber said:
Oh, of course. There are plays where a foul is called and a card is given when there isn't any over-the-top displays of pain involved, and rightly so. I wasnt saying that cards are only given because somebody shows pain, not at all, but obviously the demonstration of an injury very often causes a ref to pull a card.. otherwise we wouldnt see such fakery so often.
Instant replay is the answer, yes, and to me, as a lover of sports, the real beauty of a game comes from the rules being properly enforced and the participants acting with true sportsmanlike behavior towards those rules and their opponents. Respect for the game and the other participants is much more admirable than winning imo. Of course we all like to win, but if you treat the game and/or your opponents with disrespect, have you really won?
Watching Poland v. Russia right now
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And I'm already sick of people being brushed off their feet with minimal contact. Also, wtf with all the pre-game shenanigans...?
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