An Appeal for the success of classic mode.

[Private Who?]

^^ ahh..so that's what controls it. OK, so we'll not be able to see a return of the AKA/TK Rifles Only server for ROHoS? bummer.

As for the op...Colt generally I agree with you, but I think Wilson is more right here. I think in this case it's more reasonable to see that they are doing something quite significant to address the issues some of their oldest supporters have. I appreciate that, and I know we all hope it succeeds.

Let's do more to keep the doors open, communication going both ways, etc.
(+1 for "RO Forums Classic Mode") We can pick apart the game, but it's critical that all of us refrain from making it personal.

 

[luciferintears]

Uh... what else is he supposed to do, go on the forum whenever he needs to make an opinion on something and conduct a poll to determine it? This sounds a demand to kick the guy out of the development process simply because you disagree with his opinion. Honestly, I disagree with it too, but I'd rather argue the case of the opposing side rather than simply demand that the guy I disagree with be censored.

Well he is supposed to understand that he is not making this game so he can sit in a dark room and play it alone; there are many other people play it and so their opinion should be considered with utmost regard.

The majority of the community does not like the BS mkb42, and even if Ramm himself loves it, he needs to find a way to reasonably accommodate the users rather than shutting them out and telling them their wrong.

Thats my point. Im not advocating getting rid of Ramm either, im just suggesting that he needs to be a bit more objective. If he likes the MKB then he can play the regular mode, i dont see why he cant toss the vets a bone here. Classic mode is the best thing to happen to RO2 and i dont want him or anyone else f***ing it up

 

[Colt .45 killer]

Wow, I actually expected to return to this thread to find the flamethrowers had been brandished. Even if you disagree with me, I appreciate the way this thread has been run. ( Forums classic mode engaged ? ).

And John isn't going to step back any more than any other member of the design team. We built the original mod, the original Ostfront... Yoshi has made your case and I'd say we're answering it fairly well. But to ask a senior member of the team to "step back" because you disagree with a decision he was party to (i.e. was agreed within the team), is fairly unlikely (to be polite about it).

We design as a team, work as a team. The "Classic" mode is a team effort. That's just the way we work.

Well, I have no problem admitting my own fault. In this case I have been told by a few particular people that some decisions were made excusively by Ramm. Second to that, when posts are made on the forum they are often written as a " I decree this ", instead of "the team voted thus". I have no problem saying 'my misunderstanding' here.

This still does not invalidate what I was driving at in the OP. The appeal was to whoever ends up making these decisions, and once again I can see these decisions contradicting what is being asked for. Let me see if I can generalize with some discussions that have happened on these forums over the last few months to drive at the point.

( Sorry, I will pick on the mkb in this example ).

Ex1

Community:" We would like a realism mode with no Mkb, as we view this to be more realistic"
TwiDev:"we are of the opinion the community desires a classic mode, not necessarily a realism mode, because much of what is asked for is not realistic"
Community:"Soo... MKB still here?"
TwiDev:"Yusse!"

Ex2

Community:"We would like a more realistic mode, without some of the gamey features such as being able to stop on a dime and aim. The lack of sway after running full out. The lack of sway after injuries. Being able to indefinitely hold breath with no penalties. ( In general make it harder to shoot )."
TwiDev:" We are going to basically revert as much of the game to Ro1 as possible for the classic mode, then start making improvements from there based upon your suggestions"
Me:" Well I hope you like re doing 95.999% of that back to RO2 standards and then changing that last few % that we asked for changes to the first time..."


I feel like there is still a great divide between what has been asked for and what is being promised. Now I guess I could just sit on my hands until the beta comes up, and then participate in the suggestion process to modify it from there. But in all honesty, I don't want to start that process at RO1, I would much rather start it at RO2. Why? Well because almost all of the great long 'realism' suggestion threads were suggesting tweaks and small changes to HOS. Perhaps the most heavy handed of them being to just escape the stats system and play on a level field with skill being the only weapon under a players belt. Going back to Ost, then making what would be more than 50% of the changes back to Hos is a waste of time and money. When others and myself made comparisons between RO 1 and 2 it was not because we held RO1 to be perfect, but because it was our base point to judge from. I've said before RO1 had a 'gameplay flavor', I desire to see that flavor propagated again in RO2. The flavor exists independent of its component parts, and it can be attained by a different mixture. I frankly would like to see a different mixture this time, if I really want RO1 again, I've still got it installed.

Now perhaps you might say I am over reacting to this. But in its base form this is a miscommunication going on here, which is arguably been a big problem around here for a while.

Here, pulling this one good example out of the old Ramm thread.

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=946560&postcount=1010http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=946560&postcount=1010

Posts like these were at one point all over the forum asking for more realism. Now I see posts saying " well, you guys get a classic mode, because we don't think these are realistic requests ", I read that and I shake my head. It is no good for the community or the Developers. The community isn't about to get what they asked for, and we have been through this slugfest once already.

Whether it gets me - rep or not, I could care less about that, I'd like to see both sides on the same page; and as an added bonus get an actual realism mode out of this. The one that people exhausted their typing fingers asking for.

 

[TravisT]

Just spent the last 2 hours on 7th Cav with John and a host of other people. Had a great time. Spent Another hour the other day when he was on looking at Mekhazzio's mutator. Doesn't sound to me he's out of touch at all.

My 2 cents is that people over anaylze themselves into paralyzation over alot of things.
I mean RO Classic isn't even out and people have it doomed, fracturing the community.

Just give it a rest and lets see how this plays out. Be part of the creative process. The game is going to be fine.

 

[shadowmoses]

I have to agree with this. I have my personal reasons for not wanting Ramm in on this project, but more importantly I have practical reasoning for him to step away from this project for the sake of the game. He has stated in the past that he never really appreciated the way that RO1 played. Besides that, I feel that if there is indeed something that the community does not favour in the new mode, communicating constructively may be difficult. I have found it very hard in the past to communicate my opinions about RO2 with Ramm. I felt like a condescending tone and feel that I was trying to be convinced that my opinions were wrong that I should see and ultimately be told otherwise.

Wow, I actually expected to return to this thread to find the flamethrowers had been brandished. Even if you disagree with me, I appreciate the way this thread has been run. ( Forums classic mode engaged ? ).

I for one, Colt, have always appreciated your posts and ultimately want to see this game and the community become the high example of how a community supported game should be once again.

 

[SolitarioSoldat]

Colt 45 you get my rep for the thread, I dont think Ramm should step down though, he should be more open minded towards the oldie RO croud and listen to them what they have to say and what they want in the Classic mode.

after all is said and done,they can prepare the mode and we can all jump to beta test and see where we at. So while the beta testing they can gather more opinions of people on the classic mode and refine it until is all in good order and then they can officially release the mod.

I do think we should keep Classic mod Realistic!!! historical wise and ingame physics too.

 

[NoxNoctum]

I don't see any reason to have ANY fantasy weapons. Everyone on here is "well I don't mind if there's just one", but I've yet to see more than a couple people flat out say "we MUST still have a token prototype weapon!"

I say take them all out completely for classic mode, at least for default settings. It's immersion breaking. It's just like if you had one guy on the team in an American uniform. It's just silly.

 

[=7Cav=OIFVET101]

I like the idea of a classic mode as limiting certain weapons for a more historical feel to the game personally.

I like many of the actual mechanics of RO2 and feel that they are implemented well but would like a slower more tactical game experience than the standard hardcore mode currently is.

I would rather see more bolts in game and actually HISTORICAL accurate load outs for squads. The historical aspect has always been one of the great features of the series and the community that sets it apart from the rest of the WWII FPS games.

I personally don't want things like aperture sights ala COD:WAW as they were not there. Now as the community makes new content further down the timeline I have no problem with things being added to the game that fit the timeline.

What I don't want classic mode to be is just a re skinned rehash of RO1 as many of the added features of RO2 are actually pretty good features (i.e. penetration, etc.).

 

[Kerc Kasha]

Tripwire is seeking to upgrade all the current game modes no? Like classic will play more like Ro1 and realism will be more realistic.
Okay, make it more realistic by only having the weapons that were really used in the battle of Stalingrad. I don't know why this has been tip-toed around so much it should have had this feature at release but instead it turned off a minimap and remove pistols from everyone but commander/mg/at. Yeah real realistic.

 

[Sensemann]

I don't see any reason to have ANY fantasy weapons. Everyone on here is "well I don't mind if there's just one", but I've yet to see more than a couple people flat out say "we MUST still have a token prototype weapon!"

I say take them all out completely for classic mode, at least for default settings. It's immersion breaking. It's just like if you had one guy on the team in an American uniform. It's just silly.

Basically I agree with you even when I posted that I would be fine if there is just one. What I mean in general is that I wouldn't mind if the Mkb is selectable by mappers to be used on their maps or not. On maps that are representing a battle after Stalingrad, the Mkb can stay imho.
During the Stalingrad battle, I also prefer it not to be there, but could accept that only 1 player on the Axis team has the option to use it as a hero assault (and hopefully still selects the MP 40).

Anyways, what still worries me most with the realism (or RO-Classic) mode is, that it will be the 3rd mode introduced to the game. One issue is that you split 1 single game into 3 (!) different modes. What I don't get is that the current 2 existing modes, realism and relaxed-realism, are as different as a blue Porsche differs from a black Porsche. 2.Fjg server is the server I play 90% of the time and I don't know if it's relaxed or not. I mean, the slight differences are so meaningless, that I don't select the server by which mode it's featuring.

With the RO-classic mode, I will search for servers that run it, that's for sure. But my worries lie with the outcome: how many more RO-classic, Real-RO-classic, Super-RO-classic-realism etc. modes do we need until we figure out what we want?

And in this regard, I can only pray that TWI is listening to the community and preferably determine the goal of this mode before even sending it to beta. Because, if the beta is running and 50% of the people in it are saying we want no Mkbs and we want more sway, while the other 50% of the beta testers are saying, we want 1 Mkb and no sway, then we end up with a 3rd mode that is neither black, nor white, but another hybrid that's not distinguishing a new form of gameplay on its own. Probably that's a potential result through people that prefer the relaxed-realism mode not wanting to lose players from servers with their preferred choice.

The result of a failure of bringing up a 3rd mode, calling it RO-classic, while it's not finding its own target audience (the RO-vets and people that prefered RO style gameplay) would be a disaster. At that point, a lot of time would have been wasted, people that are extremely disappointed (like a lot of RO vets), or partly disappointed (like myself) about RO2 would probably leave the game once and forever. And that's my concern of basically mixing nice blue ink with tons of water, because the result is just a light-blue, sth that you wanted to avoid from the beginning.

RO2 initially was advertised as having 2 pretty different modes on which a new audience, unfamiliar with RO-style gameplay, could play the game without being hit by that high learning-curve. THIS was what TWI stated many times pre-release and I haven't read/heard a single concern by the RO-vets. Quite opposite, we actually supported this idea because it gave the impression that it will allow new players to get familiar with the controls, maps etc. without being owned and dropping the game quickly. Sooner or later, those newcomers would have searched their challenge on the hardcore mode. Nobody disagreed with this approach, as it sounded like the possibility of bringing tons and tons of "fresh meat" into the RO series.

Now where RO2 fell short was in delivering the oldschool players the mode they felt familiar with and that they were supposed to get in order to not being left behind.

So please, TWI, just make a brief plan on goals for the classic mode, prior to releasing it in the beta. Make sure that this mode is not being washed clean and ends up like "another white shirt in the cabinet".

PS: sorry for being so wordy, but it's hard to explain what I mean. Especially since this topic has been beaten to death and is re-discussed again. I still cannot understand why this still needs to be discussed over and over again. The forums are full of people expressing where RO2 fell short and how it could be fixed...

 

[Actin]

The worst thing for me is that even as far back as the beta there were a lot of polls and threads begging for some more realism instead of just removing the mini-map.

But it takes half a year and a nearly bled out game to convince them there is something the people miss.

The RO classic mode should have been considered straight after beta imho.
The only reason I have RO2 installed is because the classic mode will come sometimes... I really have some concerns, but in the end they only have to alter a few parameters, so I hope they don't try to hard and just listen to what people want.

The latest explanation of what the team wants generally had the good idea of what we (at least me) want, so I hope they fulfill that 'promise' (by lack of knowing a different english term)

 

[shadowmoses]

The worst thing for me is that even as far back as the beta there were a lot of polls and threads begging for some more realism instead of just removing the mini-map.

But it takes half a year and a nearly bled out game to convince them there is something the people miss.

The RO classic mode should have been considered straight after beta imho.
The only reason I have RO2 installed is because the classic mode will come sometimes... I really have some concerns, but in the end they only have to alter a few parameters, so I hope they don't try to hard and just listen to what people want...

Absolutely. I agree with this one hundred percent.
The thing that gets me (and back to the op's topic) after all this and after we have player numbers that we do, we still have 'higher-up Devs', taking the piss by defending decisions that have been made that have ultimately brought this game to where it is. Its bewildering and really speaks to why the game is where it is.

 

[Fafnir_6]

You guys do know that the AVT/MkB can be disabled server-side, right? Apparently it is a custom mode setting that results in your server becoming unranked. Perhaps instead of hounding Ramm (who likely has better things to do that argue about this ad nauseum), those players who hate the MkB could pressure their favorite server admins to configure these settings. I personally don't mind the MkB but I asked Ramm about a server-side option to disable MkBs since it seemed a good way to put an end to the endless controversy. He said that the functionality is already in game (but apparently is not well known). In light of this, the hundreds of pages of MkB hate are...much ado about nothing.

Cheers,

Fafnir_6

 

[Snuffeldjuret]

I don't think there is such a setting. I have looked for it myself and I haven't seen anything that indicate it would exist in the change log. If you mean force everyone to lvl 0 it didn't really work as DDE players would still get the mkb42. AT least that is how it was when I was playing RO2.

 

[M55ikael]

My 2 cents is that people over anaylze themselves into paralyzation over alot of things.
I mean RO Classic isn't even out and people have it doomed, fracturing the community.

Just give it a rest and lets see how this plays out. Be part of the creative process. The game is going to be fine.

I heard the same thing over and over prior to the release of this game, and here we are now. I love Tripwire and I respect that they make the game that they want to make. But if they want to make a game mode to cater to the hardcore community feedback, they have to actually take into account what people are saying.

 

[Cyper]

I doubt many people want a 'carbon copy of ro ost'. The whole point of a spiritual sequel is to improve it in line with its formula. This means that thing that were working good are improved and things that didn't work out so well are left our or fixed for the better. Regarding MkB I have no problem with it as a weapon. The STG was in RO OST. Worked veryw well. What I have a problem with is first of that its not historically accurate. The weapon itself is also designed to an award for certain players, a rare weapon that are superior to all other weapons. In my opinion a weapon like this should't exist in the RO CLASSIC mode. Because if this mode doesn't work out well what does?

 

[melipone]

I genuinely think Ramm wants to please the original RO fans with Classic mode. I'd just wait and see how it is in beta, keep it friendly so the devs want to engage the community again and then give feedback when we have something to test. This is after a couple messages with him where I got a sense of how it is from his side. I think it would be a good idea to give him a break and let him get involved with the community more atm, assuming it doesn't result in flaming from either side. Just to quote Ramm from the other thread:

We have already stated that RO Classic mode will have limited role loadouts that more closely match RO1. This includes greatly limited special weapons like the Mkb. But our goal with RO Classic is to implement a game mode that is close to RO1. This means at it's base we'll use the same methodology and decision making we used for that game for our first pass of classic. We have also said that we'll beta RO Classic and based on the feedback from the community make tweaks and changes.

This is the list we are currently looking at:

• PPSH w/drum mag and select fire (Level 3)
• Kar98 w/bayonet (Level 2)
• Kar98 Sniper w/4X scope (Level 1)
• Mosin Nagant Sniper w/3.5X scope (Level 1)
• G41 Sniper w/4X Scope (Level 2)
• SVT40 Sniper w/3.5X scope (Level 1)
• MP40 with single 32 round mag (Level 1)
• MKB42 with bayonet (no scope) (Level 1)
• P38 Pistol (Level 1)
• C96 w/10 round mag (Level 1)
• MG34 w/50 round drum (Level 1)
• MG34 Tripod (no ranking anyway)
• PTRS (Level 1, no ranking on this anyway)
• Pzb 784 (r) (Level 1, no ranking on this anyway)
• MN 9130 w/bayonet (Level 2)
• G41 (W) w/bayonet (Level 2)
• SVT40 w/bayo (Level 3)
• AVT40 w/bayo (Level 2)
• TT33 (Level 1)
• M1895 (Level 1)
• DP28 (Level 1)
• Maxim 1910 (no ranking anyway)
• All other weapons and equipment as normally given (binocs, satchels, smoke nades, etc)

We are also looking at the inclusion of the Elite Assault role back into the game in case the creator of a map wants the MKB/AVT to be available.

Personally, I only cared about MKB because it was so common on the battlefield. That doesn't mean it needs to be gone completely to me, but it could be, I don't really mind. The other thing was having Allies even spawning with them.

They want classic mode to feel more like Ostfront, that doesn't mean they are making a carbon copy

But this wouldn't be a "RO Classic" mode with just weapon changes. We also have an initial list of functionality changes and removal as well. This list is designed to emulate the "feel" of RO 1 by making distance engagements a bit more of an uncertainty. You can find that list below. This is once again a look at the initial changes we are going to make for the mode and take feedback on in beta:

• Removal of peripheral action indicators
• Removal of spawn on Squad Leader
• Removal of the bleeding system (Player will always take 100% of the damage to an area on the shot and not half then bleed the rest out like in the current system)
• Players will have a movement speed penalty after being shot in the feet
• Stamina will have a much greater effect on weapon sway and recoil
• Stance will have an increased effect on weapon sway/recoil (with the default standing state having more sway then the current game modes)
• Removal of "controlled breathing" zoom, but retaining the functionality to help steady the weapon as well as the slight iron sight zoom
• Stamina will recharge at a slower rate
• No AI Tank Gunnery
• No Lockdown

Now these changes will also be joining a host of changes and refinements we are making on the current systems as well. Several of these are still having their designs tweaked and updated so I will hold off on going further on these til a later date.

Now some might wonder why some of the other oft requested features are not readily on this list, such as player momentum. The reason for this is the momentum system in RO 2 is the same system as RO 1 with a small tweak of player friction at the start and ending phase to make it feel more responsive. So before we go and start making changes to this we want to see how the other changes play out first in getting players the experience they want.

We look forward to play testing these changes with you in the coming weeks.

I think getting a feel similar to Ostfront will be a good start. People have their own take on realism, and its not really the best way to go about talking how gameplay should feel. Both games have their + and - things for realism, I personally care about how it all comes together and how the gameplay generally feels. Speed of Iron Sights from full sprint is probably something that will need addressing too, not sure if they mentioned that yet because that is linked quite strongly to momentum, which they have talked a bit about

 

[kalle]

A huge problem as far as loadouts go is that the mappers can control what classes are in the map but not what weapons they get. This was a great thing about Ostfront and it allowed the mapper to create interesting scenarios. What we have now is dictated by character/weapon rank, and these assignments are handled by the code. Insofar as I can tell, mappers may not get away with the sort of things we were able to in Ostfront.

Providing limited captured weapons was a thing we could do. We had the ability to change the time period by changing the loadouts: Axis get StG44, G43, et al for late war maps, but are stuck with things like G41s (sometimes not even for really early maps!), MG34s, and MP40s. The Russians can have the PPD40 and PPSh41 for early war maps, and then the PPS43 and PPSh41 for the later ones. We could mix and match as we pleased. But that control has been deprived from us insofar as I can tell. If I want to make a 1941 period map (which I do), I'd be stuck with guys running around with Mkb42s. But hey, I guess it was on the drawing board at the time so it's possible that somebody put one together in their spare time and it got mysteriously shipped off to the front so that's good enough.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

Good point! This made maps in RO:O different from eachother. I'm far from a rivet-counter but I appreciate the small details like some maps having SS-soldiers who were armed with sidearms etc.

Anyway, I remember that Ramm (I think it was) stated that most of the team personally had little interest in a Classic mode, and are fine with the game as it is. It's a bit disheartening because that means they probably can't relate to the communities wishes. But dear TWI, if you don't have personal interest in playing the new mode, just listen to the community without compromising with your own taste.

I don't think Ramm should step down, but I think he should stop defending the Mkb (without producing the evidence) and other bad design decisions, at least when it comes to creating the new Classic mode.

For example the design philosophy that anything that could have been in Stalingrad should be in the game (and thereby in every battle, match or round) really has no place in the new mode. If the devs still can't even let this go for the classic mode, I'm afraid I won't have much hopes left for the new mode.

 

[Barleyman]

The STG in RO1 made much more sense historically. While those rifles weren't super common, there were thousands of them built in the final two years of the war. Anyway, that's kind of missing the point anyhow.

Hundreds of thousands. About 400k if you believe wiki. Same numbers WRT G43 karbine.

Mkb wasn't exactly unique either with some 10k manufactured. Small fry given heer had over 10 million Kar98k rifles but there you go.

 

[nebsif]

Imo ur taking it too far.. & I have no probs with rare shizzle as long as its ~1 per team, as promised.

The devs are trying make amends not only with the classic mode, but also by becoming more active on the forums. There were months of rage and silence, and finally things are moving back to the direction it was prior release (which was more than a marketing-thingy than their <3 for us but w/e).

They are faaaaar from regaining my trust back, I didnt forget nor did I forgive but give em a chance.