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as costumer asking for an opinion to the devs

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jedinstven-o crni Wuk

Grizzled Veteran
May 3, 2006
937
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germany
#1
Before anything else! This is a thread, for questions and oppinions from a costumer DIRECTLY to any of the developers of the game. So at least TRY to reduce to flaming to a minimum. Oh and btw. if someone finds grammar errors/typos, he can of course keep them. Thx.

This is not a Thread for discussion about, how tanks/infantry/battle etc. works in real life, or any discussion about sources and historical accuracy. In the end everyone of course has his own sources that are 100% right. So no debate about a tiger owns t34 in real life et here pleasec. Keep it! Adult.


If you have the urge or need to talk about these things. Go here please!

]http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=6

http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17225

http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17213

http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17474

http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17448(closed)



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After playing now since the V1.0 for Ut2k3, Ut2k4, buying the stand alone product and tracking the development even longer before it was released for Ut2k3 , i think i can say to have some experience about the direction RO and RO:O (with updates) took so far. From a aiming in high realism over to gameplay improvement now to a "semi-realistic game" with a mix between realism and arcade-gameplay, because of fun and in reference to playability (caused by the engine and its difficulties).

First. This is not a complaining about the path the game is going! Its mainly here just about a statementfrom the developers, as mentioned above, for certain questions.


I think it is clear, that with no doubt this game is in many ways a masterpiece of game developing regarding the problems from past (and eventual future realizes). But it is also a fact that in many aspects this game is far away from beeing perfect, as evry software. But we have seen now a few update with more or less good inventions, that is always in the eye of the beholder of course.

Anyway. For the questions now.

one of the first things. To start with the question. Why are after now so much patches and fixes, still some minor and big things not fixed that should be already from the begining in the game?

why are still some minor issues, that should be easy (compared to other game aspects) not fixed?
-As not to alow a strafing while sprinting for example.
-not alowing accurate shots with fast movements in ironsight.
-exterm accuracy with weaponis, while standing up.
etc.
(as said more less minor issues that could be fixed easily, but are not a flaws that should keep someone of from playing, just rather more frustrating in certain situations.)

and why are also, problems with tanks/vehicles, which i think are the most critical problems in the game not fixed yet finally ?
-shells richochet from armor in situations that are impossible (tracks having richochets, close distance richochets from high velocity guns etc.)
-a more frustrating behavior with and around vehicles (geting in and out of vehicles without delays,the use of explosives like charges/fausts against strong armored vehicles [more then 2 fausts for a single tank, 1 stachel for 2 tanks!])

this is not inteneded as start for a discussion or flame against the developers. But I think as someone that enjoys most aspects of the game and as a costumer i think, i have the right to ask. Why this things are NOT fixed/overworked yet. And if it is to complicated to fix this issues with the current engine or is taking a long time, then i ask for the EXACT reason and DESCRIBTION why, it is so complicated. And yes i would love a very detailed answer, when it is about armor/vehicles in relation to the game engine (if the time alows).

Iam not a expert in computer developing/software engineering. But i do studies in programming (web based, asabmler, C etc.) and have possibilites to get in contact with skilled software developers that could help.

In other words. I demand a exact answer, why some things are yet. (read the problems above) not changed/fixed to reflect what the game really wants to offer to us. Tank fights on "simulatin like level". for example.

Iam sorry if that all sounds kinda frustrated, but after more then half a year of waiting, patience etc. playing the game and dealing all over again with the same issues, iam a bit pissed off. But as said. I just want to know WHY it is how it is. And i think that is not to much demanded.

thx for attention and sorry for errors.
 
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#4
you "demand"? funny.

Though you say you have experience with software development you obviously have no idea of the UnrealEngine and how certain things are handled. Beside that you believe certain things are bugs, while they are intended (the strafing while sprinting for example)

To me it seems the only reason you post that here and not PM a dev about it, is that with the tone you write in here, you wouldnt get an answer ("easy to fix", "demand", "not yet fixed")

You are asking for explanations, why would you think TW should give any? Imo, there are better ways to spend their time than to give you private lessons on the UnrealEngine. Head over to the BeyondUnreal forums, or the unreal wiki and you for sure will find answers to some of your questions.
 
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#6
Let me summerise this:

You have some opinions on how to improve the game. Personally I wouldn't agree with the first list of changes you want.

You mention the armour bug that they are probably going to tweak.

There should be a delay when entering/exiting vehicles. Yeah I wouldn't mind this, but there are more important things for them to work on IMO like weapon/item pickup, bugs like pulling up iron sights while changing stance and general bugs like iron sights coming up wonky, or free aim getting messed up (sometimes it goes further to the side of the screen than it should, and the bullet doesn't go where its pointing), bugs like gun auto-rebolting when you switch to nades after taking a shot, panzerfaust bug were after taking a shot sometimes your next faust comes up incorrectly, sometimes when a tanks not level the shot goes off to the side etc. Just general bug fixes would be great for the next patch IMO
​
 
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#8
Unlike the TW adorers in this thread i, pretty much, agree with everything in the main post.

These are people taking our money, we should be able to ask questions without people shouting " omg you know nothing about the editor" or " its an engine capability problem"! The people who need to calm down are the people telling other people to calm down.








Which is why i'm also going to calm down.
 
Upvote 0
#9
Jono said:
Unlike the TW adorers in this thread i, pretty much, agree with everything in the main post.

These are people taking our money, we should be able to ask questions without people shouting " omg you know nothing about the editor" or " its an engine capability problem"! The people who need to calm down are the people telling other people to calm down.
Click to expand...

ever wanted to ask Intel/AMD why their CPUs perform better in some benchmarks than in others? If you do, dont forget to "demand" an anwser. Since you paid money for the CPU they should answer, right?

This thread is comedy gold, keep entertaining :)
 
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#11
why are still some minor issues, that should be easy (compared to other game aspects) not fixed?
 -As not to alow a strafing while sprinting for example.
This is a design decision, to prevent "circle-strafing"

-not alowing accurate shots with fast movements in ironsight.
I believe this is also intentional, to prevent constant-movement battles ala most FPS shooters

It all boils down to what FEELS realistic in tactical terms, to me it just feels more right that people find cover then aim and shoot while standing still, instead of strafing around (which everyone would do, all the time, if moving was just as accurate) etc., it may feel slightly inconvinient at times for the individual player, but my opinion is that the overall tactical feel of the game is more important, so some trade-offs I can accept..
 
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#12
Jono said:
Unlike the TW adorers in this thread i, pretty much, agree with everything in the main post.

These are people taking our money, we should be able to ask questions without people shouting " omg you know nothing about the editor" or " its an engine capability problem"! The people who need to calm down are the people telling other people to calm down.

Which is why i'm also going to calm down.
Click to expand...

Some points would be NICE to have but the devs arent forced to add them. Ever read the eula. The game is THEIRS, you paid the RIGHTS to play the game. You dont even OWN the game actually nor the software its all under copyrights.

Now sure some things would be nice to have, but you can ask nicely + alot of things are not real "bugs" they originate in the ideas and suggestions forum for nothing.

They cant please all, and before you say i'm a tw ****up just ask Yoshi or Ramm they know that i complain enough on irc.

But they dont have to do anything. Just like if steam brakes down they wont have to pay you a dime for your inability to play. You pay for rights nothing else. And eulas say they can take the rights from you at any point they feel like it.

Its nice that tw does communicate with the people, you can always ask but you can never demand.
 
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#14
worluk said:
you "demand"? funny.
Click to expand...

yes i do. Yes i demand information about a product i have bought. and spend my money for it. I do NOT see anything wrong or offensive in that.

A software is in no way different then any other product you can buy. When you own a car that provides a permanent feature, but it doesnt match the specificaton, then you try to get this feature or a fix from your Salesmen. When it is not possible for your salemens to fix/hand you over the exact article with the specification you bought, would you not ask then for further information? And what could be wrong in this? When your television contains the describtion that it provides suround sound, but it only contains a usual sound, then it is also not wrong to ask for support/information/current product satus! When your steak is not as tasty like you think it "should" be and you demand to speak with the cook, it isnt wrong neither and no one complains about it! Why is it wrong to ask for information about a game YOU bought!

And yes I KNOW that a developed game is NOT a car NO television and NO stake (it smells different and the package is to hard)! But the priciple is the same. It is a product. You can demand information. And support. That is not a offence to the developers and there hard work. I just demand information. Period. Nothing more, nothing less. THEY GOT MONEY FOR IT!



And to other comments. What do people care about how HIGH my knowledge is about software development or the unral engine? Why do some here put words in other peoples mouth? Where did i claimed for my self to be a HIGH PROFESSIONAL developer. Where did i claimed for my self to be a EXPERT in programing the Unreal engine?

READ WHAT I WROTTE! And if you dont understand it (sorry about grammatical errors and typos) then ask before you assume somewhat wrong! This question was also NOT going to any member of this community BUT DIRECTLY to the developers.

What seems to be the trouble? I only demand a EXACT describtion about, what the curent problems with the engine are. And why the behavior of the vehicles are not AS THEY SHOULD (simulation like level) be and what the reason for it is, if the developers know it. If not then i want iformation WHY they do not know it! I would like to know the exact errors! If i understand the information they will tgive me OR not, this is seriously MY problem. Not from the comunity or any member from it. I know sources where i can get help!

Also i mentioned above, TO TRY TO NOT FLAME! But this seems also to be a heavy problem for some.
If you are satisfied with the product you spent your money for then stop bugging ME about that i demand information about a product i bought!


I dont want this thread to be closed. Just a MATURE discussion with the DEVELOPERS.

period.



Ender said:
There are a few things i wish would be changed but in the end you have to remember this game has been out for a year. TW has moved on to their next game. I woundn't expext or demand anything more from them. Just that the few things that wheren't just right in RO are looked into for the next game.
Click to expand...

I see and respect your point. But that still doesnt mean that there can not be given answers and informatoins about past/current problems.
 
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Upvote 0
#15
The thing is you have no right to demand because you do not own the game :p You got the rights to use it.

If you buy a car you own it and can complain about if a part is broken. here you cant, because the eula sais so. So any support or fixes they give is a nice addition. Everyting they dont give you is just bad luck for you. TWI is one of the few devs thats active in the community, take a look at most other games (over 95%) and you wont get what you get here. THEY ARE HUMAN AND NEED SLEEP REST AND SPARETIME.

You bought rights to use the product and its usage at your own risk, the more you shout yell scream and demand things. The less of a chance to get what you want. You could have written a nice and friendly email to ramm and possibly would have gotten a reply you're just making your chances different.
 
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#16
I life in germany. Of course i can demand. And even if you just have the RIGHT to use the software.

Eula or not. It is about the rights from the COSTUMER and SELLER. The costumer HASE the right for information about the prodcuts he bought.

If iam NOT pleased with the product i have the right to give it back. The reason i dont do it is cause iam still satisfied with many parts of the product and cause it wold mean a lot of costs for my self and the devs which would not pay off in the end. Also, the time for that is over. But i still can demand informations. Nothing wrong with that. Car, Software, Aples. Informations about why something does not work have nothing to do with, if you can just "use" or "own" the software.

And from that point, also all modders wold make there self punishable cause they change something they do not own. Yet, no one complains.


This is also the same fact with a MOVIE you bought. You only have the right to watch it at your home. Copyright saves the movie makers. But what you do if the casette has a scratch? Or you want to know if the video cassette works with your current video recorder ? If i do a program, which target it is to "draw" a straight line, but the program is not able to do that then YOU have the right to ask why it cant do it, you did payed for it. For the USE of couse. And thats what we talk here about. I did never demand that i will fix it on my own!


worluk said:
ever wanted to ask Intel/AMD why their CPUs perform better in some benchmarks than in others? If you do, dont forget to "demand" an anwser. Since you paid money for the CPU they should answer, right?

This thread is comedy gold, keep entertaining :)
Click to expand...

if your CPU works slower then it shold from its specification, then you would for sure bugg AMD/INTEL for it. As serious question, would you just accept it that you have less power then you should, or call there costumer support ? Another question, why do they have actualy a costumer support then and warranties at all ?

If this here pisses you so much off. Stop posting. Seriously.


please, please, please ... dont put words in my mouth anymore or guess a situation from my OWN opinion! You have yours, i have mine. I respect yours. Why you not mine? Youre neither a developer from this game nor a forum moderator, same as I!. If a thread anoys you, avoid it. I do the same!


Britney Federline said:
And I came here for thoughts on costumes.

That would be a good thread to start, though.
Click to expand...

if you order a costume and they did a error with your hight. Would you still wear it ? If you order a cake for your marriage and they did not have been able to deliver it in time, would you accept it or ask why there was a delay?

Costumes, Software, Clothes, Cars etc. etc. YOU HAVE ALWAYS A RIGHT FOR INFORMATION ABOUT WHY THE PRODUCT DOESNT MEET ITS SPECIFICATION!

i dont knwo how its for USA, but i bought that game in GERMANY with curent european laws and terms which the developers also agreed! Or they would never have been able to sell that game here in europe/germany. Believe it or not. I know my costumer rights quit well.
 
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Upvote 0
#17
Whether you think so or not, 'demanding' comes across as pompus arrogance, to me anyway.

As to your list, I completely disagree with the first part of it.

The second part of the list seems more open to debate. I could see some of these things being dealt with, while others I would imagine being taken care of in their next game. Example, the entering and exiting of vehicles. I am sure this operates exactly as they designed it. I would guess they might deal with it in an update (as it seems many people here in the forums would like that), but more likely you will see it being done completely in their next game.
 
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#18
after facing 3-4 years the same problem ... jea might be a bit arrogance in it. But i just would like to know fianally where the problem is. Thats all damnit ...

the first part, true is more a matter of opinion, written more or less in anger. But as you said ... the second one. I just want to know it finally. Always when i try to attract people to the game, the thing i hear from them after the first tank map ... "and that game call its self a simulation?" ... but sadly there is nothing i could tell em to prove them wrong, ...since well near evryone one of us, know that frustration. particularly when you love to use armor.
 
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#19
The tank model is not completely realistic because of preformance issuse that result from higher resolution simulation of the armor. This *may* be resolved in time, but it as *may* not because of netcode limitiations.

As far as the other "minor" issues, whether the full implementation of them is realistic or not is far from certain. You claim that they are unrealistic. Admittidly the very steady nature of the IS in all cases is unrealistic, however the weapon sway combined with increased sway after running and while standing helps to counteract this. Sure, TWI could make you manually line up the front and rear sites, but you have to ask what the overall effect on the realistic nature of the game would be. You cannot simply look at these issues in isolation. A game is MUCH more than the sum of its parts to use a horrible cliche.


There is a huge list of things that are not completely realistic in ROO, for the most part these balance out to create a realistic experience. This is not the case for all of them, but some of the ones that are unrealistic (tank weight, tank shell speed) are unrealistic because of engine limitations. Distinguishing between design decisions and practical limitations is important in these cases. Its not real life, so it is hard to blame it for not being perfect. Tanks could be better, but ROO really pushes the engine with the tanks, infantry gameplay has some unrealistic fascets, but all of them together achieves something fairly realistic.
 
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#20
Well, as you state in the first part of the list, much of it is opinion. I happen to like it the way it is.

As far as issues with the second half, perhaps the 'Armored Beasts' Mutator that is currently out may help with some of your concerns. In any case, I still think the armored combat is very good in RO, better than many other games I have encountered.
 
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