My View: "I'm an RO:Mod Vet / RO1 Vet" and How to Tame Things a Bit:

[Cyper]

I think we all can agree that anyone that gives suggestions to increase the arcadegameplay in RO are totally wrong. Here, the RO VETS comes in and tell them how things work, how things should be, and what's forbidden and not. The people that have spent years upon years with playing the game, discussing the game, working with mods etc. knows a hell lot more than a random gamer that pops into the forums and give crazy ideas. The people on this forum is all what matters. The mainstream gamers can go and play something else and stop trying to change this game to another FPS. That's already happend though and RO2 isn't really a complete spiritual successor to the first and orginal RO. If you want the mainstream to decide what's right and wrong to implement in this game well play COD and you'll see exactly what they want.

And I'm a RO OST VET, but I ain't got much skillpointz, perkz and unlockz in RO2, and no Hero rank, but I'm a RO VET.

 

[dazman76]

Interesting post Prax, and I did read the whole thing! heh. I'd like you to know that, as an RO:CA veteran (UT2003, no less), I approve of your ramblings. Ahem...

this is why giving users ability to downvote is like giving general public the ability to decide - sounds good in theory, in practice most people are idiots.

Sad, isnt it? I'm amazed on a daily basis, how even the most innocuous posts are down-voted. Simple, short posts with basic opinion - "I like this map and enjoying playing it" - down voted. "I prefer the K98K to the 9130, it feels more accurate" - down voted. People don't understand that these links aren't "I agree / I disagree" - I guess comprehension is on a steeper downward slope that most people think Have an up-vote for your efforts, although it'll probably cost me several down votes myself. Such is the price of dealing with people on the interwebs.

 

[SCandChives]

A reasonable breakdown identifying an overused logical fallacy, deconstructing it, and then providing productive feedback? On the TWI forums?

It's more likely than you think...

The big problem here that TWI has already mentioned is that the forums represent a tiny fraction of the userbase, and do not represent an accurate sample of the opinions of the people actually playing the game. Forum polls are notoriously inaccurate in regards to the larger community as a whole.

I know that I've never signed up for the developer forums for the games I play. This is a first for me. I would never have signed up if not for all the bugs I had trying to get the game working on my rig. It'd never cross my mind to visit here if not for that. I'm operating under the assumption that most gamers are like me (it seems that they are, from my experience). Changing gameplay based on what's here on the forums would be a mistake.

Originally I only joined these forums after some time lurking to keep up to date on RO2 and interact with what was a mostly nice community. I'd never had any previous experience with the series or any Tripwire games for that matter. I picked up RO1 (does that mean I'm an RO1 vet?) to give it a go while waiting for RO2 which looked amazing to me at the time but honestly just couldn't get into it. When I got into the DDE beta I knew I'd found a real gem and haven't regretted it since. Sure there are things I'm unhappy with about RO2 but overall I've enjoyed the game immensely. I can understand people being unhappy about some changes, but hey, RO1 is still there for you.

Polls tend to represent a very small portion of any given group, as only thoseon the forums would even know about them and many of those people are here because they're unhappy with the game. Much like television polls, only those who feel strongly enough about something would even bother voting, therefore skewing the results.

That's already happend though and RO2 isn't really a complete spiritual successor to the first and orginal RO.

Which, incidentally is the mod, I believe you're referencing RO1. From what I've heard from a few others, Prax included, RO2 is actually closer to the mod than RO1, and is more like "the game the devs wanted to make all along."

Overall nice post Prax, should be stickied IMO, some people around here really need some common sense and decency.

 

[Fedorov]

I'm a RO:CA vet and here is my argument.

RO:CA > RO:O > RO2.

Should have been the inverse, but sadly is not. I'm more convinced that everything that made the mod good was made by the guys who left, and what made Ostfront good were the leftovers from the mod.

U mad?

 

[Icey_Pain]

I'm afraid with him it's a natural reaction. I'm tired of reading his nonsensical posts about the game being dead.

I probably shouldn't have insulted him and I'm sure the mods will deal with me accordingly, but I'll do it again everytime he insists on posting his fantastical, over dramatised crap

Edit: I dunno, maybe you think his constant " the game is dead " crap is neccessary or helpful?

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?p=949707#post949707

This is what I wrote in the topic about people that were screaming that this game was dead. And apparantly, the people who gave me negative rep felt spoken to.

I tend to have the urge to insult some of the people on this forum as well, but if possible I try not to tie it to an individual person. I would rather insult their arguments than I would insult who they are.

To be honest, I think that people who played Red Orchestra 1 deserve a little bit of credit, they've seen the genre evolve and they tend to know what they enjoyed back then. However, many of them stick to tradition a bit too much, which really hurts the value of their opinion. Instead of speaking out of experience, they speak out of "what they are used to".

As a result of this, you get a lot of conservative whining about how this "should be" rather than discussing what truly upsets them about the game.

An example of the irrationality of traditional thinking is that people beg for more sway because apparantly it's too easy right now.
They want it to be as difficult as Red Orchestra 1, and the irrationality here is because traditionally more sway was in RO1, so according to them it must be in RO2 as well.

While instead we should be thinking about more modern methods of increasing the difficulty curve. The excessive sway some people want feels artificial and fake to me. Instead we should be asking Tripwire for maps that rely on distance shootouts a lot more. Or maybe even adding wind to the calculation of bullet physics.

There's so many possibilities that would elevate this game forward. But we need to consider that Red Orchestra 2 is a new game.

 

[Proud_God]

Which, incidentally is the mod, I believe you're referencing RO1. From what I've heard from a few others, Prax included, RO2 is actually closer to the mod than RO1, and is more like "the game the devs wanted to make all along."

A need to put this into perspective. There was infact sway in the mod, but it didn't work. Your sights woulds sway about, but you would still always shoot dead-center in your screen. Players referred to it as 'cosmetic sway'. And it sucked.

 

[Grobut]

Very well, so with that logic, me being an RO Mod Vet and an RO1 Vet should make my opinion superior to anybody who's just an RO1 Vet, thus there is no argument to be had.

Biased conclusion mate, you want to belive this is about snobbery and pulling rank, but it isen't.

To a guy straight off the bus, for whom Ro2 is his first ever RO, ANY gameplay is "good" aslong as he is having fun with it, he went in with few to no expectations, and if he's having fun then that's good enough, that's all he wanted, to him it doesen't matter in the least what direction the game has gone in, just as long as he enjoys it.

But most RO vets did not go into this game looking for "a game that i hope is fun", they came looking for a very specific kind of experiance, a specific kind of "fun", they came with expectations, and they very much do care what direction of "fun" the game has gone, to them it's not good enough for the game to merely be "fun", it's got expectations to live up to.

That's the whole bloody difference, and why it does matter where we came from, did we go into this game with serious expectations or did we go in with few or none?


And for the record, i came from the mod too, i've followed RO since the start, and i do NOT agree with you that HoS is clouser to the mod, not in the slightest, if it were i would be having a blast with it, and i am not.

 

[DiedTrying]

No, it's only one topic with two related tangents, and while I'm facinated that you bothered to take the time to count how many words I typed, I would have been more impressed if you actually contributed something to the conversation.

Copy pasting into microsoft word then reading "Word Count: 1 bazillion" isn't difficult.

And I've really got no interest in delving into a relatively shallow philosophical debate that really isn't anything more than posturing.

To be fair, everything you've stated, has been discussed in some form or another ad nauseum on this forum. But I must say you were probably the first to write an essay on the matter.

The only thing that I look to impress upon you, is the realization that you, as a poster, take things a little too far.

p.s. let me qualify: I did read/skim over your post and most of it wasn't unreasonable *smiles*

 

[Das Bose]

This is what I wrote in the topic about people that were screaming that this game was dead. And apparantly, the people who gave me negative rep felt spoken to.

I tend to have the urge to insult some of the people on this forum as well, but if possible I try not to tie it to an individual person. I would rather insult their arguments than I would insult who they are.

To be honest, I think that people who played Red Orchestra 1 deserve a little bit of credit, they've seen the genre evolve and they tend to know what they enjoyed back then. However, many of them stick to tradition a bit too much, which really hurts the value of their opinion. Instead of speaking out of experience, they speak out of "what they are used to".

As a result of this, you get a lot of conservative whining about how this "should be" rather than discussing what truly upsets them about the game.

An example of the irrationality of traditional thinking is that people beg for more sway because apparantly it's too easy right now.
They want it to be as difficult as Red Orchestra 1, and the irrationality here is because traditionally more sway was in RO1, so according to them it must be in RO2 as well.

While instead we should be thinking about more modern methods of increasing the difficulty curve. The excessive sway some people want feels artificial and fake to me. Instead we should be asking Tripwire for maps that rely on distance shootouts a lot more. Or maybe even adding wind to the calculation of bullet physics.

There's so many possibilities that would elevate this game forward. But we need to consider that Red Orchestra 2 is a new game.

Well I started playing the mod, then ROOST, Carpathian Crosses, Mare Nostrum, and finally DH.

I would say I played ROOST and it's mods for a good solid 5 years, with about 3 years ROOST and the rest spread between the mods with the most on DH. Do I think that any of this makes me more qualified to comment on RO2? Like hell I do

I do know what I like in my shooters though, and RO2 has so much potential it's almost painful. I am quite happy playing RO2 as it is now, but it can be so much more, and it can do this without being RO1 Mk2.

I am thoroughly sick and bloody tired of reading posts from that guy and others of his ilk, which do nothing but deride the game and falsely claim it's dead or dying.

If they love RO1 so much that all they can do is repeat themselves day in and day out about how RO2 sucks and is dead or dying, I simply can't understand why they are wasting their time in here, can you?

Those that offer constructive criticism are another matter entirely, they are what will drive this game forward, and they have my full support.

 

[Private Who?]

No disrespect Praxius, but I do believe you (and a few others perhaps) are a voice in the wilderness. A distinct minority in other words.

Whether you started playing RO in 2004, 2006, 2009 or whenever...it does appear at least on these forums that the majority of experienced RO players see ROHoS as a major let-down on several levels. Each individual's reasoning for thinking so becomes mere semantics. I would bet that there are many people with zero RO:CA or ROOst experience who see ROHoS as quite flawed.

For those who enjoy ROHoS, by all means carry on. Knock yourself out.

For many of the rest of us...Tripwire stock is selling for pennies on the dollar.

 

[Poerisija]

No disrespect Praxius, but I do believe you (and a few others perhaps) are a voice in the wilderness. A distinct minority in other words.

Whether you started playing RO in 2004, 2006, 2009 or whenever...it does appear at least on these forums that the majority of experienced RO players see ROHoS as a major let-down on several levels. Each individual's reasoning for thinking so becomes mere semantics. I would bet that there are many people with zero RO:CA or ROOst experience who see ROHoS as quite flawed.

For those who enjoy ROHoS, by all means carry on. Knock yourself out.

For many of the rest of us...Tripwire stock is selling for pennies on the dollar.

Stop throwing words like "distinct minority", "majority" and "many rest of us" when you don't have any actual numbers. It could as well be that the whiners are a small minority and most people are actually happily playing the game.

 

[[TORO]Patosentado]

I come straight from being 5min in an RO1 server, playing Danzig, wich is quite close to the actuals apartments map in RO2...
I have been killed 3times by an StG44... so that is not new... compared to RO2, RO1 is clumsy, rigid, the caracter gets stuck in every corner and aiming and firing is very "game"... I recommend to you to try RO1 after playing RO2 for days... all complains will be gone...

 

[Das Bose]

Stop throwing words like "distinct minority", "majority" and "many rest of us" when you don't have any actual numbers. It could as well be that the whiners are a small minority and most people are actually happily playing the game.

Agreed, I really wish these people would speak for themselves

 

[DiedTrying]

and most people are actually happily playing the game.

Except for that whole deal where well over half of the community doesn't even play the game on a regular basis....

 

[hockeywarrior]

A reasonable breakdown identifying an overused logical fallacy, deconstructing it, and then providing productive feedback? On the TWI forums?

It's more likely than you think...

The big problem here that TWI has already mentioned is that the forums represent a tiny fraction of the userbase, and do not represent an accurate sample of the opinions of the people actually playing the game. Forum polls are notoriously inaccurate in regards to the larger community as a whole.

I know that I've never signed up for the developer forums for the games I play. This is a first for me. I would never have signed up if not for all the bugs I had trying to get the game working on my rig. It'd never cross my mind to visit here if not for that. I'm operating under the assumption that most gamers are like me (it seems that they are, from my experience). Changing gameplay based on what's here on the forums would be a mistake.

I'd say that 90% of the servers I join in RO2 are packed full of people complaining about the exact same stuff that we argue about on the forums. Last night was a perfect example -- there was so much raging about the game on every server I joined, I was genuinely shocked these people were playing it. They were *****ing even more than I usually do when I play! And that's saying something.

So don't give me this crap that the opinions of the people on the forums are irrelevant. RO2's playerbase isn't nearly big enough to say that the thoughts of the people here are a tiny fraction of the player base opinions. RO2 is a small community, and the player base and forum community are definitely intertwined.

 

[Poerisija]

Except for that whole deal where well over half of the community doesn't even play the game on a regular basis....

And where do you get these numbers? I wouldn't mind sources.

 

[luciferintears]

what is this?

 

[Inuki]

Meh, I don't really care much for peoples oppinions. I just like facts.


We need a decrease in accuracy of weapons (oppinion) because if that happens then we will start to see firefights that last longer than the time it takes for you to press the trigger of your gun (fact).

Weapon sway would be ideal, Recoil wouldn't solve the problem because it's just not a problem with rifles...and a dispersion cone would be hated (but still preferable to us being 150% accurate marksmen right now).

So if you want actual firefights in this game you need to make players, in some shape or form, less accurate. If you believe firefights already occur in this game then your rationalisation and analyse skills are very poor or your not quite sure what a firefight is.

Either way...I just can't play this game the way it is now. Log on to a 64 player server and see nobody. This is the chaos of large player battles? It's pathetic. The game is so close to awesome but just fails on one small thing.

 

[DiedTrying]

And where do you get these numbers? I wouldn't mind sources.

It's from SteamGraphs. 10,000 people played online the first couple days. It's down to 2,000 now. I would give you a link, but I can never find it using google.

The thread "Where have the players gone" had a link, but I think the thread was deleted or locked and not sure how many pages back it would be.

 

[|716ID| Hptm.Popov]

It's from SteamGraphs. 10,000 people played online the first couple days. It's down to 2,000 now. I would give you a link, but I can never find it using google.

The thread "Where have the players gone" had a link, but I think the thread was deleted or locked and not sure how many pages back it would be.

Topic was mine, and it still exists.
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=68095

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as soon as the sdk will be release i'll start to work on my "Realistic Weapon Mod".

- Ending forever with the "everybody is a sniper"
- No more Zoom
- Real weapon spread
- No balancing stupid stuff

Prepare to be out of ammo more often that killed.

Shooting somebody over 50/100 meters will be a really REALLY (i mean REAAAALLLY) HARD STUFF to do !

You'll have to shot, and shot, and shot, and prey strong !!! if you want to perfect shot a head rear the corner of a windows, exactly as it does !

Machinegun will now rulez the world as it always should !

:IS2:


http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=68095