Why are

[Steeps]

The problem is - as someone already said - the community is pretty evenly divided on this issue. It isn't people complaining about the berserker being overpowered as much as they're complaining about being forced to play a perk they do not like. Bring the zerker back to pre-nerf status and you'll still see kiting games everywhere. They just won't win as often (though it's still very winnable). If you leave it as it is you piss off a large chunk of people who can't stand the zerker class, and if you change it you piss off everyone who enjoys kiting. There is no solution to this that will leave at least half of the community upset, and for every person threatening to quit the game because of the berserkers there's another person threatening to leave the game if they get rid of the kiting ability.

This is the major downside of having two very different playstyles that don't mesh well together in the game. As obnoxious as running around a map for two hours can be, sitting in a corner camping does get boring after a while. Hopefully in KF2 (if it comes out, hint hint! ) the developers are able to find a balance between the two methods of play. Perhaps some type of mobility is necessary from preventing the game from being stale, but not mobility to the point where the game becomes too easy and takes too long to finish due to the squad running around the map over and over again. I don't have a solution, though, hence why I'm not a game designer.

What I'm saying is the best way to combat this is to mix up your games as much as possible! I enjoy kiting sometimes but I agree it gets dull and boring when it's done in just about every single game. If I played three kiting games in a row and enter a game and see a team kiting again I'll most likely just leave. If I played three games of supports crouched up in a corner with shotguns and see a fourth game on crash or departed I won't enter it. I usually decide what I want to do before I enter a game. So if I want to play sharpshooter or demolitions and enter a server to see a team of berserkers I'll just leave.

It could be difficult to find quality games some nights so it'll probably help to find people you enjoy playing with and play private games with them. That's probably the best solution to this situation. Or if you have extra money lying around buy your own server and disable the berserker perk.

 

[9_6]

That's not even remotely the same thing and you know it. Goodness you're illogical sometimes.

A different playstyle is not even remotely the same as another playstyle... thanks for clearing that one up, sherlock.
Did you read my other post before feeling the urge to comment on that one?

Are you here to whine without offering a solution just like the OP?
Cause that **** ain't constructive, brah.
(that was not a call to a "come up with the best 'solution' contest btw. God knows we had enough of those already. I'm kinda scared of the next balance patch)

 

[Neom.1r]

Steeps, like 9_6 your missing the point.

The point is that in a camping game a Bezerker can still be completely effective. They are not as useful as in a kiting team, but imo that shouldn't even exist, and they still bring unique abilities to the team like the fact that the zeds need to get through the zerk before the team wipes, which at the very least buys time to pick targets and aim (if your not a team full of retarded supports, but even then they wipe because people aren't as good and it's harder than a kiting team where you have complete control over every zed unless your very bad).

However, such is the state of the current bezerker that in PUB games in HoE most are Zerkers kiting because its the easiest way to finish a map. This makes it impossible to play as any other perk other than Zerk/Medic, and in my experience M14 SS. Since KF is meant to be a game based around firearms (for me, it is) I really hate the fact that most of the time I join and see a server dominated by 2-5 Zerkers. I don't think this is how KF should be remembered.

Simple changes to make the Zerker less solo and more team-reliant are all thats needed, such as the ability to NOT heal himself and/or slightly reducing his damage resistance. I don't get why people are so against this, I really don't ('cept fanboi's trololol)

Oh, and 9_6 http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=52777 I have made suggestions before and many regular's posted there. Your anger and lack of thinking out proper replies only makes you seem foolish. sux2bu

 

[9_6]

They are not as useful as in a kiting team, but imo that shouldn't even exist

Thanks for proving my point there.

Oh, and 9_6 http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=52777 I have made suggestions before and many regular's posted there. Your anger and lack of thinking out proper replies only makes you seem foolish. sux2bu

Ah that's just too cute.
Pot, don't call the kettle black.

 

[darkonxy]

oh oh oh I have one!

Why are people forgetting to buy armor at the end of each wave , really its driving me nuts , how could you forget such an important item......

 

[Neom.1r]

A different playstyle is not even remotely the same as another playstyle... thanks for clearing that one up, sherlock.
Did you read my other post before feeling the urge to comment on that one?

Are you here to whine without offering a solution just like the OP?
Cause that **** ain't constructive, brah.
(that was not a call to a "come up with the best 'solution' contest btw. God knows we had enough of those already. I'm kinda scared of the next balance patch)

Well, I linked you the prood that I have and continue to make solutions based on observation, and this isn't me against the forum, like your arguement is. Many people agree and have even voived they agree with me, while you continue to retort to ad hominem's. Poor show, but an entertaining one at that.

FYI the term 'not as useful' does not mean 'useless'. You seem to naturally take someones opinion/evidence and read it in a way that is most appealing for you to reply to, that actually addressing it.

I'm not doing this to embarass you, I really would like to discuss why you think any of this is a good, or bad, idea. But you just do it in such an illogical way, as has been pointed out, that it's really quite useless to try to engage in any sort of discussion with you. But lets try.

Care to actually elaborate on why you think any of my proposed changes would not be helpful in contributing to lessening the problem of how multiple Bezerkers change the gameplay for non-kite classes (most of them) while still keeping the Bezerker able to solo well, which if you read my posts you will actually realise is what I'm advocating. My issue, (I feel I have to say again because you've lost it in your rage) is nott hat the class is OP but the effect the class has on the rest of the classes in a class based game. Of course, you can't deny, that this mentality and playstyle is encouraged by the current Bezerkers stats, but I'm sure you will.

Oh and based on all this, lets not start with the 'pot kettle black' rhetoric, you can see from this it's actually you who is guilty of this, as you havn't actually made any attempts to discuss with us.

 

[9_6]

Stop being a nuisance and get your **** together before accusing me of not having mine together.
Seriously. You're flailing about with no rhyme or reason yet accuse me of acting illogical.

Show me the "ad hominem" I "keep retorting to" in here, maybe then I'll consider you not to be full of ****. sux2bu
Ps: That one up there doesn't count.

Also after you're done with that, show me the the "proposed changes" in this very thread here I supposedly disagreed with.
Extra points for any proposed change you can show me in the first post.
Then we'll talk.

Good luck.

 

[Aze]

Personally I'm getting to the point I'm quite happy to cut Zerkers off at the knees and make their resistance melee only,

This would only make them MORE prone to kite, because then you will be even worse off trying to hold the frontline as a Zerker in a camping gameplay. The general resistance is a GOOD trait from a teamplay pov (tanking damage for the team, buying time).

I'd rather do 2 things:
1) Reduce movementspeed to 20% (like you said too)
2) Make Fleshpounds unkiteable by doing a number of things: Make line-of-sighting not reset the rage-o-meter, but rather just pause. Make a missed swing from a Fleshpound NOT reset the rage-o-meter either. Make a HIT from a non-raged swing only pause the rage-o-meter too, rather than resetting it. No more mechanic exploits.

Now, kiting will be MUCH MUCH harder to do, and thus these annoying kite-games will hopefully quite quickly end. Hopefully.

 

[Undedd Jester]

I'd rather do 2 things:
1) Reduce movementspeed to 20% (like you said too)
2) Make Fleshpounds unkiteable by doing a number of things: Make line-of-sighting not reset the rage-o-meter, but rather just pause. Make a missed swing from a Fleshpound NOT reset the rage-o-meter either. Make a HIT from a non-raged swing only pause the rage-o-meter too, rather than resetting it. No more mechanic exploits.

I'm good with that too.

So long as this "waiting for 15 minutes per wave as some lamer Zerker(s) kill 1 specimen every 20 seconds" thing is nipped well and truly in the ear, I'm not really arsed what is changed tbh.

If I'm truthful I'd be fine seeing the Berserkers stats more or less reset to how they were before the BETA. I know I didn't see any true berserkers complaining about anything other than the chainsaw being nerf batted into uselessness.

Perhaps meet halfway and give them 30% resistance instead of 25%, but you get my drift.

 

[noupperlobeman]

I only put up with berzerkers if they are close friends of mine, because I know how they operate.

Strangers, on the other hand, get no respect from me. Unless I'm a medic. Then my class obligations override my hate for berserkers.

 

[Fail-o-wisp]

I hear you on this. Kiting is boring to me, especially when I'm forced to kite in a map such as West London. Seriously? Why would you even NEED to kite on West London is beyond me.

I just leave the game whenever I see the team starts to kite.

 

[Neom.1r]

Stop being a nuisance and get your **** together before accusing me of not having mine together.
Seriously. You're flailing about with no rhyme or reason yet accuse me of acting illogical.

Show me the "ad hominem" I "keep retorting to" in here, maybe then I'll consider you not to be full of ****. sux2bu
Ps: That one up there doesn't count.

Also after you're done with that, show me the the "proposed changes" in this very thread here I supposedly disagreed with.
Extra points for any proposed change you can show me in the first post.
Then we'll talk.

Good luck.

So despite me actually doing the leg work and pointing out for you what I'd like to discuss, you still can't/won't. If you care to look, I've linked you with proof here and in another thread where my '**** is together'. Shame, I thought you would be capable of brining to bear some good reasons as to why the current state of the game re: Zerkers is fine. I was wrong, but then again, I half expected it.

I agree with Jester, it doesn't really matter how the changes are done, be they to the zerker itself or to AI, but it's too 'out of place' with the whole KF atmosphere to the extent it really is ruining many peoples enjoyment of games played.

The simple way is to slightly reduce Bezerker runspeed and damage reduction, but a change to AI will also obviously work while making less people complain, but be much harder to do.

 

[9_6]

I DON'T WANT TO DISCUSS ANYTHING.
Why would I want to talk to you after all that crap?
THAT'S MY POINT.

Hell, you can't even back anything you say up, you just make accusations and the funniest and most ironic one yet is the ad-hominem one.

You asked a question, I made a rhethorical counter question on which I elaborated after some passive-aggressive derps who didn't get what I was getting at felt the need to downvote.
Will you please READ that instead of rambling on like an idiot?
All you can do is accuse me of things I have never done in here and I don't like some arrogant kid specifically calling me out, telling me something must be wrong with my head while not getting what I was even saying in the slightest.

Time to grab you by your neck and mash your face into it now.

I like how there were complaints and suggestions on how to make teams move instead of turtling all the time before.
Now we have, and some people even unknowingly admit this, a 50/50 ratio of both playstyles.
Just saying.

That's an observation. The only thing you could do here is demanding a citation and you'd have had me here since it was all from memory after all.
Beyond that, there's nothing to discuss or disagree on in here.
Or is there?

And to answer the question, because the "problem" isn't easily fixed without utterly destroying the berserker perk.
I bet my left nut that you wouldn't be satisfied if they "only" fixed the fleshpound rage exploit. That's part of the reason why.
The other part is that it is complicated to the point where it's hard to identify as a "problem" but more as a "playstyle" and I like how some people here talk about playing "real KF" while all they mean is they don't like that particular playstyle and would like to force their preference onto everyone which is just lovely.

This is me answerng your stupid question in your stupid spam thread with the title "Why are" and a message body that reads a bit like this:

Spoiler!

YouTube - ‪Baby crying‬‏

What is disagreeable about that it is complicated? Isn't it?
What is disagreeable about it being a playstyle which some people just so happen not to like (and lookie who exposed himself as one of those in here)? Isn't it?
What is disagreeable about "fixes" tending to getting out of hand? Didn't that happen with the chainsaw, the pipes, the crossbow, dualies etc?
So what do you even want from me?

See, this was intentionally written in a neutral, hard to disagree with way.
Why is it supposed to be my problem now if you're reading crap into this -something you accuse me to do, way to go there.

But hey, maybe I expect too much from someone who can't see any contradiction in this sentence:

Zerkers can still do exactly the same as they do with a camping team, which is hit stuff with melee weapons. They just cant solo everything, which is completely different.

But then later act as if they never said that, blatantly say that they can not actually do everything in a camping team as if that is what they've always said to begin with.
How dishonest can you be?

But wait... there's more. You had to repeatedly call specifically me out, you had to accuse me of things you yourself are blatantly doing and then you had to openly state that my anger amuses you.

I concede that you're either incredibly, shamelessly stupid and arrogant (nice mix) in which case, shame on you and die in a fire or you are a troll in which case shame on me for feeding you.

Now buzz off and take your spam-esque thread with you.
Use another of the dozens of "berserker is OP" thread if you need your discussion fix.
Gosh, look at all the text you made me type with your childish nonsense.

 

[Deafmute]

A different playstyle is not even remotely the same as another playstyle... thanks for clearing that one up, sherlock.
Did you read my other post before feeling the urge to comment on that one?

Do please point me to the last game where you saw Sharpshooters pigeonholing people into playing a class suited for camping in order to stand a chance at survival.

 

[Undedd Jester]

Do please point me to the last game where you saw Sharpshooters pigeonholing people into playing a class suited for camping in order to stand a chance at survival.

On that note I've seen plenty of players go as that lone Berserker when the rest of team are camping and distract part of the wave alone. They seem to be perfectly happy to go off alone as a Berserker.

 

[Deafmute]

On that note I've seen plenty of players go as that lone Berserker when the rest of team are camping and distract part of the wave alone. They seem to be perfectly happy to go off alone as a Berserker.

I have too, which I'm more than fine with. It's the whole team being Zerker and taking 3 hours to kite one wave that I have a problem with.

 

[9_6]

Do please point me to the last game where you saw Sharpshooters pigeonholing people into playing a class suited for camping in order to stand a chance at survival.

So you even missed the part where I myself said that it's not the same?
The part you quoted?
That is impressive.

Now stop taking that silly example at face value, I even explained it all. Christ.

 

[Neom.1r]

Wow, this is hilarious for completely obvious reasons.

You say that any changes would destroy the Bezerker perk. I'll just let that hang.
You seem to automatically assume (despite me saying otherwise) that this is some sort of crusade to eradicate the Zerkers playstyle. That isn't the case at all, if you care to swallow you pride and read, like you keep tellnig me to do.
You say I'm rambling because I'm repeating these points, but theres a reason for that. The reason is you don't want to sit down and face the issues being presented. You openly said that. I win.
The FP rage explot is broken, but like I say, it is just encouraging the mentality that the Bezerker perk fosters in the game. I expect you to gloss over this as well, of course. The fact that if it was fixed would mean that the Bezerker would need some teamwork to kill a FP would go a long way into making this less popular, and why? Because it's not able to kill every specimen in the game on its own reliably, which is a problem in my opinion. This is different from the support because they rely on ammunition which can be expended and a team for cover. The Bezerker does not rely on any other factor other than himself. You know this. It is a problem.
I am not a fan of the playstyle, so what? I do respect it's validity however and want people to be able to play like this if they so desire. I do not think that this playstyle should force others to change theirs, especially to the extent to which it does though. If people want to kite, so be it, but the Bezerker should not be able to do it all on his own. Beign able to kill everything in melee is not his defence and should not be used as a justification to not be changed, which seems to be the arguement 'for' keeping him the way he is "but he will be useless if he cant kill everything in the game on his own waaaaah". He can do this though because his stats allow him. Therefore his stats need to be changed or he needs to have a much tougher time killing fleshpounds.

I admit I made a mistake with my wording regarding the Bezerker in a campnig team. What I meant was that, hm, they can still kill everything with swords, which is the point of the speed and the class in general (to move from zed to zed fast and be safe, not to kite. The kiting aspect is a corollary of these defensive stats. As your no doubt aware). The class isn't meant to be a 'kiter' class primarily. No class is. Therefore, a Bezerker can still be played like it should be, but it can't kite and therefore solo everything in the map on it's own. Not only because they simply aren't kiting, but human stupidity will probably lead to a commando shooting that scrake with a bullpup. So they can do everything they can do while kiting (swing an axe, swing a katana...) but they probably can't solo everything because their teammates will want to have some fun too. It's really a problem to me that people assume the bezerker is not good enough if it can't kill everything on its own...

You anger does amuse me.

I don't need to back up most of what I say, because I can't provide video of a neutral participant's reaction upon joining a kiting game and not enjoying it, if that was to be there reaction. You'll just have to take my word for it, and the word of the other forum posters who seem to have, coincidentally experienced the same thing. How odd. What could that possibly mean? I just don't know, I don't understand how other people seem to be saying the same thigns with regards to aspects of the game that I do not see a problem.

If you want me to stop being "childish" and want me to "buzz off" maybe get out my thread? The same thread you have said you refuse to make discussion in but are repeatedly posting in.

I have too, which I'm more than fine with. It's the whole team being Zerker and taking 3 hours to kite one wave that I have a problem with.

This is exactly what I mean about the Bezerkers stats fostering a mentality that affects other people in the game. The social interraction of others is changed. In this case, Berzerker encourages soloing, which encourages another person to 'solo' to not get left behind, literally. Now more people join and solo to the point that others are forced to adopt this playstyle or leave. A terrible state of affairs we can all agree (except 9_6 for some reason). The FP rage threshold being fixed may fix this, but I personally would still like to see a speed and/or damage resistance reduction, and/or some sort of 'stamina' being added to prevent nonstop kiting by 1 person while 5 others go afk for 10 mintues. If that was a Commando solo, he'd be dead. Other classes should have varying degrees of success 'solo' based on their stats and playerskill, but nothing like the current state of the Berzerker, imo.

 

[9_6]

So what was disagreeable about the things I asked whether they are disagreeable again?
Is it not complicated?
Is it not a playstyle?
Did what I said about the fixes not happen?

You're rambling on about stuff I never talked about again because apparently you are terrified about the concept of making even the slightest, simplest of concessions yet expect me to "swallow my pride"?
Why is it so hard for you not to make a huge slab of text full of chaff especially after I outright said that I am not interested in a discussion? IN CAPS EVEN?
I ask you a question and you don't answer it, I ask you to show me where I said something and you don't do it yet you keep expecting me to play by your lead and take part into something I never wanted to be part of?
That is not how you do dialogue.

I win.

Wow.

A terrible state of affairs we can all agree (except 9_6 for some reason).

And where in here is the post where I specifically do not agree with this?
Oh wait, you're pulling that out of your *** again ignoring that enormous post where I explained in detail how I specifically worded things in the most neutral possible way.

I am so done with you.

 

[kenijaru]

this thread reminds me of this:

YouTube - ‪Monty Python - Argument Clinic‬‏