What does that have to do with what I said being disadvantages?
Oh dear god don't go there...
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Support Specialist : Balance
- Thread starter sverek
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What does that have to do with what I said being disadvantages?
Oh dear god don't go there...
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Everything you can image.
Go back and play on normal
What is your major malfunction?
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Where it's overpowered is that Support Specialist IS too good at both roles - small waves of trash and big specimens.
If you're the guy wasting hunting shotgun ammo on a single crawler or clot, then you're someone who says support doesn't carry the ammo Commando does to handle all the small zeds. As long as you're halfway intelligent about using your ammo, you should do fine working with a team.
Look at play on pub servers - high level commandos are a rare breed. You'll always see a bunch of support. With Support able to handle trash and big specimens, teams can do without commando.
Ask yourself this - on a team, if your only choice for commando/support mix is to have 2 supports or 2 commandos, what would you rather have? It's a lot easier for the team to survive without the commandos than without the supports.
If you're the guy wasting hunting shotgun ammo on a single crawler or clot, then you're someone who says support doesn't carry the ammo Commando does to handle all the small zeds. As long as you're halfway intelligent about using your ammo, you should do fine working with a team.
Look at play on pub servers - high level commandos are a rare breed. You'll always see a bunch of support. With Support able to handle trash and big specimens, teams can do without commando.
Ask yourself this - on a team, if your only choice for commando/support mix is to have 2 supports or 2 commandos, what would you rather have? It's a lot easier for the team to survive without the commandos than without the supports.
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While I support removing the grenade damage bonus, support is nowhere near as powerful as the zerker and medic. Both the medic and zerker are infinitely more survivable classes because much greater survivability always wins over somewhat greater firepower and much slower speed.
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Im loving this 5 pages of banter over a useless topic. Go outside geeze
I'm loving the hypocrisy in this post.
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Instead of just randomly bashing eachothers opinions and so on, let's get constructive and look at what the perk should and should not do. We all agreed that the Support isn't "that overpowered", but there is something about it that feels like it needs a little tampering with. I think this is the reason:
It's simply the most versatile perk. It's both good against big crowds of trash AND really good against heavy targets. Which leads to the question:
So, what should the role of the perk actually be? Should it:
A) Be a trashkiller, but not so strong against heavy targets (as Comm/Fbug)?
B) Be a heavy target killer, but not as easy to take care of trash by yourself (as Sharp/Demo)?
C) Be a supportive perk, which helps with both trash and heavy targets, but with limitations on both and doesn't excel at either direction compared to the other perks? (Sorta like Zerker, but Zerker has different issues, but that's another thread)
Personally, i think it should be C. Right now it fills that point quite well with trash, as you can kill trash quite easily but you will have troubles with ammo (especially if you try to take on the role as the main trashkiller) and with reloadtimes. Compare that with the trashkilling king, the Commando, who has little trouble with both ammo and reloadtimes. So against trash: Support is fine imo.
On big enemies though, i'd deem it a tad too strong, not only cuz of its power, but also cuz of how easily and fast you can do it.
So what has been suggested, and what do i think of them?
In short these are the suggestions:
1) Fix the multihitting pelletbug
2) Reduce shotguns headshotmultiplier
3) Remove handgrenade damagebonus and/or amountbonus
4) Readjust and thus nerf his speed/weight formula
And now my opinions:
1) Ofc. Fix this bug and alot of excessive damage against Scrakes and Fleshpounds will go away (it occurs mostly on them).
2) Sure, but not by much. It's at 1.65x. Minimum value i'd say 1.5x-ish. That might tone down the Scrake ownage (at least if attacking it by yourself) by quite a bit.
3) Remove the damage-, but not the amountbonus. Why? Well, remembered how i said the perk should support in both main aspects of the game which is trashkilling and heavykilling? Well, by removing the damagebonus you will not be able to do so MUCH damage to Fleshpounds, but you would be able to assist for sure. By keeping the amountbonus, you would allow a (smart) Support player to more often assist the team against Fleshies than the trashkiller perks can, but with less power than the heavykillers will. So, that still makes him able to SUPPORT against heavies more often than the trashkillers, but not be as awesome at it as he is now. Plus he would still have the powerful shotguns to help with both roles as well, and also to SUPPORT the team against enemies getting too close, and hopefully be able to finish of the wounded targets, be them heavy or trash.
4) Personally i think it's a bit unnecessary to tamper with it. Mainly cuz it feels counterintuitive: "Yey, i gained a level and now im stronger and more able to carry more stuff... but i actually got slower by it cuz im actually not stronger now than before". Just seems weird. On the other hand, if this change DOES happen, i wouldn't care much about it though, as it still makes SOME sense to be slower with more weight on your shoulders, even if you are supposedly a stronger weightlifter than others.
So in short:
* My opinion of the Support is that it is balanced in its trashkilling perspective, but a bit too strong in its heavykilling one.
* Thus, my opinion of the Support is that its role should be a supportive perk that is nicely assisting with both heavies and trash, but doesn't excel at either direction, compared to other perks
* To fulfill that, i would reduce the Supports power against the heavier targets by fixing the pelletbug and maybe reduce the headshotdamage of the shotguns a little and remove the handgrenade damage bonus.
That way Support would more or less be a middleground of the Commando and Demolitions perks. More ammo than Demolitions, and more power against heavies than Commando, but less ammo than Commando and less power against heavies than the Demolitions. A "jack of all trades", a SUPPORTING perk...
It's simply the most versatile perk. It's both good against big crowds of trash AND really good against heavy targets. Which leads to the question:
So, what should the role of the perk actually be? Should it:
A) Be a trashkiller, but not so strong against heavy targets (as Comm/Fbug)?
B) Be a heavy target killer, but not as easy to take care of trash by yourself (as Sharp/Demo)?
C) Be a supportive perk, which helps with both trash and heavy targets, but with limitations on both and doesn't excel at either direction compared to the other perks? (Sorta like Zerker, but Zerker has different issues, but that's another thread
)Personally, i think it should be C. Right now it fills that point quite well with trash, as you can kill trash quite easily but you will have troubles with ammo (especially if you try to take on the role as the main trashkiller) and with reloadtimes. Compare that with the trashkilling king, the Commando, who has little trouble with both ammo and reloadtimes. So against trash: Support is fine imo.
On big enemies though, i'd deem it a tad too strong, not only cuz of its power, but also cuz of how easily and fast you can do it.
So what has been suggested, and what do i think of them?
In short these are the suggestions:
1) Fix the multihitting pelletbug
2) Reduce shotguns headshotmultiplier
3) Remove handgrenade damagebonus and/or amountbonus
4) Readjust and thus nerf his speed/weight formula
And now my opinions:
1) Ofc. Fix this bug and alot of excessive damage against Scrakes and Fleshpounds will go away (it occurs mostly on them).
2) Sure, but not by much. It's at 1.65x. Minimum value i'd say 1.5x-ish. That might tone down the Scrake ownage (at least if attacking it by yourself) by quite a bit.
3) Remove the damage-, but not the amountbonus. Why? Well, remembered how i said the perk should support in both main aspects of the game which is trashkilling and heavykilling? Well, by removing the damagebonus you will not be able to do so MUCH damage to Fleshpounds, but you would be able to assist for sure. By keeping the amountbonus, you would allow a (smart) Support player to more often assist the team against Fleshies than the trashkiller perks can, but with less power than the heavykillers will. So, that still makes him able to SUPPORT against heavies more often than the trashkillers, but not be as awesome at it as he is now. Plus he would still have the powerful shotguns to help with both roles as well, and also to SUPPORT the team against enemies getting too close, and hopefully be able to finish of the wounded targets, be them heavy or trash.
4) Personally i think it's a bit unnecessary to tamper with it. Mainly cuz it feels counterintuitive: "Yey, i gained a level and now im stronger and more able to carry more stuff... but i actually got slower by it cuz im actually not stronger now than before". Just seems weird. On the other hand, if this change DOES happen, i wouldn't care much about it though, as it still makes SOME sense to be slower with more weight on your shoulders, even if you are supposedly a stronger weightlifter than others.
So in short:
* My opinion of the Support is that it is balanced in its trashkilling perspective, but a bit too strong in its heavykilling one.
* Thus, my opinion of the Support is that its role should be a supportive perk that is nicely assisting with both heavies and trash, but doesn't excel at either direction, compared to other perks
* To fulfill that, i would reduce the Supports power against the heavier targets by fixing the pelletbug and maybe reduce the headshotdamage of the shotguns a little and remove the handgrenade damage bonus.
That way Support would more or less be a middleground of the Commando and Demolitions perks. More ammo than Demolitions, and more power against heavies than Commando, but less ammo than Commando and less power against heavies than the Demolitions. A "jack of all trades", a SUPPORTING perk...
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HA? The "trick" you guys refering to is the vedio Fang post which he use THREE nades and the jumping trick to make hunting shotgun do more damage at really close range. Thats TRICKS.
What I am refering to is plain observation. Noticing how much range you need shotguns to do more damage and HOW to make your nades explode RIGHT UNDER a fleshpound's feet should be known after palying support for may be a week. But everyone just dont like to try out, what most people do is only rely on teamates. ONLY. Then blame teamates when wipe out. No one think about "what the hell I can do now" when the team start to get rape by the zeds.
So comments like "only berserker can solo" comes up. How is making nade explode under fp's feet and adjusting your distance to fire your hunting-shotgun be "tricks that only known recently"?
And again, you remove nade bonus, you only remove the ability of supprot to solo 6-man fps. From small to medium zeds they are as good as day one of releast. So, WHO said support is balanced at the ss balance beta? (again, no tricks involved)
Like I said, when you start to nerf, it wont stop. When people started to say xbow is OP, the only want to decrease "some" starting bolt, and no more one-shot on fp and scrakes. And what it end up nerfing it?
So, after removing the nade bonus, the damage of shotguns (while most of the peopel complaining said it was balanced for a really long time) will also be nerfed. Then it comes down to the demo perk.
And btw... WHY commando was op when he can down scrakes? It was the katana stun lock who make scrake cake. Not the SCAR. And now, again, what have we done to the SCAR? It is jsut another ak.
What I am refering to is plain observation. Noticing how much range you need shotguns to do more damage and HOW to make your nades explode RIGHT UNDER a fleshpound's feet should be known after palying support for may be a week. But everyone just dont like to try out, what most people do is only rely on teamates. ONLY. Then blame teamates when wipe out. No one think about "what the hell I can do now" when the team start to get rape by the zeds.
So comments like "only berserker can solo" comes up. How is making nade explode under fp's feet and adjusting your distance to fire your hunting-shotgun be "tricks that only known recently"?
And again, you remove nade bonus, you only remove the ability of supprot to solo 6-man fps. From small to medium zeds they are as good as day one of releast. So, WHO said support is balanced at the ss balance beta? (again, no tricks involved)
Like I said, when you start to nerf, it wont stop. When people started to say xbow is OP, the only want to decrease "some" starting bolt, and no more one-shot on fp and scrakes. And what it end up nerfing it?
So, after removing the nade bonus, the damage of shotguns (while most of the peopel complaining said it was balanced for a really long time) will also be nerfed. Then it comes down to the demo perk.
And btw... WHY commando was op when he can down scrakes? It was the katana stun lock who make scrake cake. Not the SCAR. And now, again, what have we done to the SCAR? It is jsut another ak.
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@Aze
@Aze
Man, you are reading my thoughts. I wanted to post something like you did, but was too lazy to write so much.
I agree practically to all you said with just some marks:
* Removing pellets double hit bug could make shotguns too week and would require a lot of balancing.
* I think headshot multiplier should be decrease even more - down to 1.1, if in the same time increase base damage. Support isn't supposed to aim to the head, support is supposed to get close to the enemy.
* Fix the bug when shooting with any of shotguns at point blank doesn't make any damage. Sometimes when raged Gorefast came too close, your shot doesn't even hurt him, but kill zeds behind him. I think this is because pellets spawns too far away from the weapon (there is some place between player and pellets, where zeds are save from being hit).
@Aze
Man, you are reading my thoughts. I wanted to post something like you did, but was too lazy to write so much.
I agree practically to all you said with just some marks:
* Removing pellets double hit bug could make shotguns too week and would require a lot of balancing.
* I think headshot multiplier should be decrease even more - down to 1.1, if in the same time increase base damage. Support isn't supposed to aim to the head, support is supposed to get close to the enemy.
* Fix the bug when shooting with any of shotguns at point blank doesn't make any damage. Sometimes when raged Gorefast came too close, your shot doesn't even hurt him, but kill zeds behind him. I think this is because pellets spawns too far away from the weapon (there is some place between player and pellets, where zeds are save from being hit).
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Ok, i just need some clarification on this: The doublehit, isn't it only when you shoot targets in the chestarea, making you somehow hit the head AND the body health at the same time, or something like that? And also, afaik, this is only really obvious with the Scrake, but seems to be happening with the Fleshpounds too, no?
On trash though, im not too sure it ever hits them twice, or does it? Would like to see this tested out. Scary_ghost, are you up for it?
If it does generally reduce the damage against all targets though, i agreed that the basedamage ofc would need a bit of a buff though.
Could work too perhaps
Testing it is what is needed ^^Ofc that too. However, am i the only one who nearly NEVER experiences this bug?
(And yes, i think the reason why, "the too far in front"-spawn of the pellets, might be the reason of this bug)
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Coming back to the 1st post:
^ that, this should be done no matter which class we're nerfing
^ that, this should be done no matter which class we're nerfing
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Ok, i just need some clarification on this: The doublehit, isn't it only when you shoot targets in the chestarea, making you somehow hit the head AND the body health at the same time, or something like that? And also, afaik, this is only really obvious with the Scrake, but seems to be happening with the Fleshpounds too, no?
On trash though, im not too sure it ever hits them twice, or does it? Would like to see this tested out. Scary_ghost, are you up for it?
Yes. I tested with aa12 on gorefasts. With enough range, it can do 6-7 hit with one shot (and if ANY pellet hit the head, the gorefast will be decaped).
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Close. It's not hitting the head, it's hitting both collision cylinders which overlap a little with some specimens. And naturally since these projectiles have penetration, if you are above the specimen you can fire down through both collision cylinders.
I personally don't see why fixing this bug would break balance though.
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Had to reply because this idea is getting way over-thought.
Support is not overpowered. Yes there are tricks for it that make it seem overpowered. But keep in mind that it is only considered overpowered because the tricks are widely known and widely used. Every, and I stress EVERY, other class has tricks it can do that aren't widely known, and they would be just as overpowered as support then. Are you going to nerf every class? Even a medic can take down a scrake without getting damaged if he knew the "trick." Is the medic overpowered when it comes to killing scrakes? No.
Take the M14 for example. For somebody who doesn't know how to use it it isn't overpowered. But in the right hands it will take down a fleshpound in 10 shots, a scrake in 7, and all trash in 1-(2 for sirens and husks). All without taking ANY damage. Does that mean it is overpowered? Actually I think a good M14 user is much more overpowered than a expert support.
Support is not overpowered. Yes there are tricks for it that make it seem overpowered. But keep in mind that it is only considered overpowered because the tricks are widely known and widely used. Every, and I stress EVERY, other class has tricks it can do that aren't widely known, and they would be just as overpowered as support then. Are you going to nerf every class? Even a medic can take down a scrake without getting damaged if he knew the "trick." Is the medic overpowered when it comes to killing scrakes? No.
Take the M14 for example. For somebody who doesn't know how to use it it isn't overpowered. But in the right hands it will take down a fleshpound in 10 shots, a scrake in 7, and all trash in 1-(2 for sirens and husks). All without taking ANY damage. Does that mean it is overpowered? Actually I think a good M14 user is much more overpowered than a expert support.
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wrong, the problem is that the support has tricks that are not only easy, but can allow it to handle almost any situation alone short of double fps and a couple close proximity sirens, claiming that there is no problem because it is OP due to tricks and not OP stats is bad, because you are accepting the class as an Everyperk, while all other perks can solo, none other can do so without encountering more than a couple problems in the later waves.
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This thread went from "let's do some minor changes cause there isn't really much that needs to be fixed" to "he can kill everything, thus he must have no disadvantages which is fact now and if you say he has, lolplaymorenormalkthx. He is now also perfect for soloing cause that's totally what you do as a supporter and also how you measure overpowerdness".
I am surprised and shocked and have not seen this coming.
I am surprised and shocked and have not seen this coming.
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Everytime OP posts reminds me of chainsaw and sharpshooter nerf.
Because everyone said it was balanced, then suddenly it is slightly OP, then it is qutite OP, then it is OP, then suddenly it can kill everything and being ridiculously OP.
Firstly people only thinkg nade making it kil fp too easily, then suddenly they think we should also nerf the shotguns. If support is balanced WITHOUT those tricks, WHY half the damage (no more 90% penetration hitting the same target) still make it balanced?
Because everyone said it was balanced, then suddenly it is slightly OP, then it is qutite OP, then it is OP, then suddenly it can kill everything and being ridiculously OP.
Firstly people only thinkg nade making it kil fp too easily, then suddenly they think we should also nerf the shotguns. If support is balanced WITHOUT those tricks, WHY half the damage (no more 90% penetration hitting the same target) still make it balanced?
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The problem I've seen with arguments so far is they play to the strengths of the support class and try to say it makes them universally overpowered.
"Support can deal with trash as well as if not better than a commando" - If its down a narrow hall way at close range, yes. Outside of that, their rate of fire/ammo capacity makes them no where near as good when you aren't holed up in a corner with things coming at you from one direction all lined up.
"Support can solo the big specimens and deal with trash" - So can a good sharp shooter, and a good demo, and a good berserker.
(Demo might not have it quite as easy when dealing with 6 man HoE scrakes, while being expected to cover the rest of those duties due to ammo limitations)
"Support grenades are too good vs Fleshpounds" All grenades are good vs. Flesh pounds. If every person in a 6 player team was good enough to land 1 or 2 grenades at the feet of a fleshpound and not have it burst from a siren, even on wave 10 you'd have a majority of the FP's dealt with through that alone. Support players just often use them more because A. They have more, and B. its clearly stated they get a bonus. (Where as all grenades receive a 2x Bonus * I think * vs FP's, but its not stated clearly anywhere)
"Support can deal with trash as well as if not better than a commando" - If its down a narrow hall way at close range, yes. Outside of that, their rate of fire/ammo capacity makes them no where near as good when you aren't holed up in a corner with things coming at you from one direction all lined up.
"Support can solo the big specimens and deal with trash" - So can a good sharp shooter, and a good demo, and a good berserker.
(Demo might not have it quite as easy when dealing with 6 man HoE scrakes, while being expected to cover the rest of those duties due to ammo limitations)
"Support grenades are too good vs Fleshpounds" All grenades are good vs. Flesh pounds. If every person in a 6 player team was good enough to land 1 or 2 grenades at the feet of a fleshpound and not have it burst from a siren, even on wave 10 you'd have a majority of the FP's dealt with through that alone. Support players just often use them more because A. They have more, and B. its clearly stated they get a bonus. (Where as all grenades receive a 2x Bonus * I think * vs FP's, but its not stated clearly anywhere)
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In some case I agree with outofrealman: messing too much with shotgun damage/penetration could lead to situation, when support needs empty half of aa12 magazine to kill a single gorefast. But from the other side, rejecting to balance slightly OP perk because of some kind of "nerfophobia" is sick.
For example, xbow headshot made by level 6 sharpshooter delivers 2880 damage. It was decided too much, so it is nerfed down to 50% for Scrakes on Suicidal/HoE. And even now Scrake killing for skilled ss is a piece of cake, but lowered his status from the King of the game to pretty well balanced.
In the same time level 6 support with hunting shotgun double blast can deliver up to 2640 head damage to the Scrake, if all pellets hit the target. So maybe it can be nerfed the same way - add Scrake 50% resistance to shotguns on Suicidal/HoE and don't touch any other parameters.
For example, xbow headshot made by level 6 sharpshooter delivers 2880 damage. It was decided too much, so it is nerfed down to 50% for Scrakes on Suicidal/HoE. And even now Scrake killing for skilled ss is a piece of cake, but lowered his status from the King of the game to pretty well balanced.
In the same time level 6 support with hunting shotgun double blast can deliver up to 2640 head damage to the Scrake, if all pellets hit the target. So maybe it can be nerfed the same way - add Scrake 50% resistance to shotguns on Suicidal/HoE and don't touch any other parameters.
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