v1038... how to make sharps even worse than before

[vealck]

Okay, EBR needed nerf and some fine tuning. But it got completely castrated instead. Yet another example of TWI totally overreacting while attempting to balance things. Let's hope next pass will have a bit more insight...

The current issue is that SS with EBR is now pretty much useless vs biggies, while SS with railgun still makes them trivial.
And I honestly cannot wrap my head around how some people here see that as an improvement to the teamplay aspect of the game...

Everyone shooting indiscriminately in one direction is not teamplay. It's a spamfest.

Cooperative situation would be if sharp was able to handle biggies safely, but it would take a considerable amount of time, during which other team members has to defend him from other zeds in order to succeed. Something like that was in previous build, all it needed was some adjustments. For example: lowering EBR firerate, require more headshots to initiate stun on SCs and then require continuous hits in order to keep SC stunned. Another solution would be introduction of flinchlocking - that would allow to kill SC safely, but require good timing, etc.

 

[Ptigran]

Cooperative situation would be if sharp was able to handle biggies safely, but it would take a considerable amount of time, during which other team members has to defend him from other zeds in order to succeed. Something like that was in previous build, all it needed was some adjustments. For example: lowering EBR firerate, require more headshots to initiate stun on SCs and then require continuous hits in order to keep SC stunned. Another solution would be introduction of flinchlocking - that would allow to kill SC safely, but require good timing, etc.

Aren't you describing a Sharpshooter with a Railgun/LAR ?
LAR can clear some trash but not everything, add one Husk/Siren and you are overrun. And it can handle biggies safely.
Okay it's not a considerable amount of time, but with the raging Scrake/Fleshpounds and fast Zeds in general it's never going to happen.

Maybe I consider Sharpshooter too much of a Sniper, but the EBR always felt wrong even in KF1.
It annihilates any trash clearing difficulty the Sharpshooters are supposed to have.

As it is in KF2 I still don't see why it's a Sharpshooter weapon (beyond the nostalgia factor) :
- Supports have shotguns who go through targets. Medium damage, low ammo.
- Commandos have automatic/semi-automatic rifles. Low damage, high ammo.
- Sharpshooters have single-shot rifles. High damage, low ammo.
- Gunslinger have single-shot pistols. Medium damage, medium ammo.

Give the EBR to commandos, and port over the Musket for Sharpshooters.
Either your team needs more trash clearing and you go Crossbow/Musket or it needs someone to kill Big Zeds and go LAR/Railgun.

 

[Jr175]

Aren't you describing a Sharpshooter with a Railgun/LAR ?

No.

Maybe I consider Sharpshooter too much of a Sniper

SS is really ambiguous as a name for what the perk should be doing and could be split further into two separate perks consisting of a sniper with sniper rifles and a commando clone that uses heavy caliber rifles like the scar and EBR.

but the EBR always felt wrong even in KF1.
It annihilates any trash clearing difficulty the Sharpshooters are supposed to have.

And not the plethora of pistols available in either game? Ignoring the fact that gunslinger handles pistols now, it wouldn't be a stretch to say sharp is still good with them.

Give the EBR to commandos, and port over the Musket for Sharpshooters.
Either your team needs more trash clearing and you go Crossbow/Musket or it needs someone to kill Big Zeds and go LAR/Railgun.

I'm all in for bringing more weapons in for all perks but this would be so bad from a balance standpoint.

 

[Gladius]

The sad thing is that so many people here in that thread don't even know what EBR/LAR sharps means in KF1 because if they played sharps there it was xbow + pistols. The casual style and that is what TWI is catering here. The railgun is the equivalent to the KF1 bowscrub. Add some pistols and the new sharps is what the bottom line of sharps in KF1 is.




On the other hand the LAR/EBR are turned into peashooters, for group spamming stuns.




I'm not wasting my time here with explaining every last newb what sharps beyond casuals in KF1 is about. The developers do know it. And I'm here to tell them that it is a travesty what they made out of sharps. And I'm done with promoting that game.

 

[Escadin]

But you mostly agree with a suggestion to add flinchlock mechanics from KF1 There is a reason the first game is still popular even after 7 years. I still play it everyday and want more ppl to enjoy and understand its mechanics. I hope it will also help to make better KF2.

You must have misunderstood that. I don't like the KF1 flinch LOCK because it's it makes the game too easy (just like stuns). Single well timed flinches are okay.

The sad thing is that so many people here in that thread don't even know what EBR/LAR sharps means in KF1 because if they played sharps there it was xbow + pistols. The casual style and that is what TWI is catering here. The railgun is the equivalent to the KF1 bowscrub. Add some pistols and the new sharps is what the bottom line of sharps in KF1 is.

On the other hand the LAR/EBR are turned into peashooters, for group spamming stuns.

I'm not wasting my time here with explaining every last newb what sharps beyond casuals in KF1 is about. The developers do know it. And I'm here to tell them that it is a travesty what they made out of sharps. And I'm done with promoting that game.

Then why did you waste your time making this thread? "I have too much skill to even talk to you scrubz". I finally understood your arguement: You don't need one because we're too bad.

Honstely hope Tripwire values such well put and thoroughly reflected feedback.

 

[Shambler]

I think the Sharpshooter is great fun as it is. Not nearly as OP as Gunslinger or Zerker.

 

[AntiSocial]

I agree with the original poster in regard to the EBR to a degree. Isn't he Sharpie supposed to be mostly about taking out the heavies? The Scrake is supposed to be susceptible to bullets but not explosives but after the last update bullets are far less effective. I'm only playing in hard difficulty & have ballistic shock & rack em up & I'm unloading on his head & not been able to stun a Scrake with the EBR in the several games I have played since the update. Considering EBR is the second highest weapon in the Sharpie arsenal it should have better stun ability on the Scrake at least. I agree that maybe EBR was too easily stunning Scrake before the last update but decreasing EBR Rifle stun power to 8 from 40 seems way too much. That in combination with decreasing the stun duration makes for a very ineffective perk. Whats the point of stun at all if its so hard to accomplish & even if you can its virtually useless anyway.

 

[silverlighted]

snip

To try and revive some sensible discussion out of this thread. I agree with this as well. I've got little to add to the intense discussing going on here regarding KF1 v KF2 sharp design/elitism vs casualism/etc but...that stun reduction on the ebr is ridiculous. I don't buy the argument that this is promoting "teamplay" because multiple shooters are contributing to the stun value. The reduction is way too low. There should be room for a person solo-stunning.

And someone clarified an earlier question that I had. But not my first question. I don't understand the first bullet in the op post. Doesn't railgun at sharp 25 not two shot FPs on 6p HOE without rack em up already before the latest update? I ask because I don't play HOE, and all I have are my calculations using simplecat's spreadsheet to verify lol.

 

[Tagasaki]

Doesn't railgun at sharp 25 not two shot FPs on 6p HOE without rack em up already before the latest update? I ask because I don't play HOE, and all I have are my calculations using simplecat's spreadsheet to verify lol.

Yeah still 2 shot in perfect condition.

It is a total of 1068.75 after calc the skills (Sniper, Stability, Deadeye, passive) minus the resistance to ballistic_rifle that FP has. FP's head on 6p HoE health is 1787.

 

[Escadin]

To try and revive some sensible discussion out of this thread. I agree with this as well. I've got little to add to the intense discussing going on here regarding KF1 v KF2 sharp design/elitism vs casualism/etc but...that stun reduction on the ebr is ridiculous. I don't buy the argument that this is promoting "teamplay" because multiple shooters are contributing to the stun value. The reduction is way too low. There should be room for a person solo-stunning.

And someone clarified an earlier question that I had. But not my first question. I don't understand the first bullet in the op post. Doesn't railgun at sharp 25 not two shot FPs on 6p HOE without rack em up already before the latest update? I ask because I don't play HOE, and all I have are my calculations using simplecat's spreadsheet to verify lol.

The patch notes are accurate, nothing about the railgun's damage has changed. It's probably like somebody has suggested before that OP fears the railgun become the go-to tool and it has been indirectly buffed because other options got heavier nerfs. This may even be true but I don't think it matters as long as they still plan on tuning the railgun.

That said, it's true that -if any perk- sharpshooter should be the one to solo scrake (and MAYBE fleshpounds). And it still is! It's just not as easy anymore using your T3 weapon which is incidentially also commando level good against trash at the same time. In other words, the only thing they changed about it is that you cannot have your cake and eat it too anymore... unless you're really good with the M14.

 

[JRMFTW]

The nerf to stun has killed the EBR for me, I don't care so much about the SC or FP aspect of the nerf, but now I can't even seem to stun/interuptgorefasts, sirens and husks even with the stun perk selected. I used to be able to regularly interrupt siren screams and husks firing to save teammates, but now it's far to unreliable that I've reverted to using the damage bonus perks as it is simply way better for absolutely everything including the heavies.
I'd be much happier if they increased the stun capability again and actually decreased the damage output, so their could be a more distinct supportive role for SS.

 

[Shambler]

To the players complaining about the stun reduction on the EBR, don't you think that it's good enough without having crazy good stuns on top of loads of ammo, fast rate of fire and a laser sight? Just get a XBow and a EBR, use the XBow for stuns, switch to the EBR for damage spam.

 

[xmrmeow]

I do agree that the railgun needs a cost nerf. I don't think a weapon that both only costs 1500 and has cheap ammo should be able to 1 hit scrakes and 2 hit FPs.

I think a more reasonable price would be 2000 cost with 100 per ammo (current: 1500 cost, 25 ammo). This would mean players can get it on later waves, and need to conserve shots more.

I agree that m99 was way underused in KF1 due to it's high cost, but making a weapon that's just as strong and just removing the high cost isn't the answer. I think 100 per ammo is fair and removes the need to pool ammo to the sharpshooter in order for them to afford ammo, while still making the gun not too strong.

I also agree that EBR stun nerf was a step in the wrong direction. Since stun resistance is tied to the zed, not to the weapons, a nerf to one weapon's stun duration is a nerf to all of them. As I stated in my suggestion to fix this thread (http://forums.tripwireinteractive.c...-game-for-m14-replace-the-nerf-to-stun-on-m14), I think giving the m14 flinch instead of stun would be a better nerf to the m14, without harming other slow firing weapons that need the stun to function.

 

[Ptigran]

I do agree that the railgun needs a cost nerf. I don't think a weapon that both only costs 1500 and has cheap ammo should be able to 1 hit scrakes and 2 hit FPs.

I think a more reasonable price would be 2000 cost with 100 per ammo (current: 1500 cost, 25 ammo). This would mean players can get it on later waves, and need to conserve shots more.

I agree that m99 was way underused in KF1 due to it's high cost, but making a weapon that's just as strong and just removing the high cost isn't the answer. I think 100 per ammo is fair and removes the need to pool ammo to the sharpshooter in order for them to afford ammo, while still making the gun not too strong.

I also agree that EBR stun nerf was a step in the wrong direction. Since stun resistance is tied to the zed, not to the weapons, a nerf to one weapon's stun duration is a nerf to all of them. As I stated in my suggestion to fix this thread (http://forums.tripwireinteractive.c...-game-for-m14-replace-the-nerf-to-stun-on-m14), I think giving the m14 flinch instead of stun would be a better nerf to the m14, without harming other slow firing weapons that need the stun to function.

How to make the Railgun useless.
You do realise with the Railgun you can only have a LAR ? That's 70 bullets + 21 Railgun ammo without the ammo perk (88 + 27 with). And you want to make it even more difficult to get ammo ? You are right we shoot already way too much as it is...

****ing hell, it's like you people don't want the Sharpshooter to have any use at all or be any fun. Just stand there at the back and shoot a few trash per wave until wave ~7 where you can add 3-4 Scrake and 1 Fleshpound.

 

[Furious Imbecile]

M14 was nerfed too extremely. It was too powerful before, but now it's not worthy of the T3 tag vs the big zeds, mainly Scrakes. You can still kill Fleshpounds relatively easily by stacking 2-3 freeze nades on them and then going ham on their head, but Scrakes seem to be largely unaffected by freeze nades since they have no rage animation and they go straight to rage and a slow does not hinder them when they start spinnin.

A stun on a Scrake with 2-3 headshots was OP, but at least let us stun them if we get 4-6 concecutive headshots. M14 stunpower should be increased from 8 to 20 at least Imo.

As for railgun, increasing it's purchase and ammo costs is a cheap way to make it "balanced" so no to those suggestions.

 

[EpNn10]

The Railgun is a tier 4 weapon which costs 1500 dosh, and has a weight of 10, limiting loadout possibilities.
The Railgun has 21 ammo (26 with the level 20 perk skill, "Always Prepared"), so using the Railgun against anything but Scrakes and Fleshpounds is impractical.

The M14 is a tier 3 weapon that costs 1100 dosh, and has a weight of 7, giving you more possible variations in your loadout compared to the Railgun.
The M14 has 180 ammo (225 with the level 20 perk skill, "Always Prepared"). At least in v1037, the M14 could handle every Zed minus the Fleshpound with ease.

* I know weapon tiers don't mean much, but I decided to just list it.

I'm not the hugest fan when it comes to weapons that trivializes big Zeds.
Some people don't seem to like how these two weapons handle Big Zeds in the v1038 update.
So, what are some changes you would like to see in how these two weapons handle the big Zeds?

 

[clconx]

M14 was nerfed too extremely. It was too powerful before, but now it's not worthy of the T3 tag vs the big zeds, mainly Scrakes. You can still kill Fleshpounds relatively easily by stacking 2-3 freeze nades on them and then going ham on their head, but Scrakes seem to be largely unaffected by freeze nades since they have no rage animation and they go straight to rage and a slow does not hinder them when they start spinnin.

A stun on a Scrake with 2-3 headshots was OP, but at least let us stun them if we get 4-6 concecutive headshots. M14 stunpower should be increased from 8 to 20 at least Imo.

As for railgun, increasing it's purchase and ammo costs is a cheap way to make it "balanced" so no to those suggestions.

I agree. Currently you can stun Scrake with 3 LAR headshots but the stun duration is so short that you can't change to M14 and decap scrake before he rage. Only if you get far enough you can finish it before he start to dancing with chainsaw.
I think there are two possible solutions:
1) Increase M14 stunpower so you don't need to change weapon to stun scrake
2) Increase stun duration, so you can stun with crossbow or LAR and finish him with M14.

At the moment scrake is more dangerous than fp, if you have M14.

 

[FoolishNinja]

I agree. Currently you can stun Scrake with 3 LAR headshots but the stun duration is so short that you can't change to M14 and decap scrake before he rage. Only if you get far enough you can finish it before he start to dancing with chainsaw.
I think there are two possible solutions:
1) Increase M14 stunpower so you don't need to change weapon to stun scrake
2) Increase stun duration, so you can stun with crossbow or LAR and finish him with M14.

At the moment scrake is more dangerous than fp, if you have M14.

wich difficulty and how many players?
how many hours did u play as SS and KF2 at all?

 

[Gladius]

How to make the Railgun useless.
You do realise with the Railgun you can only have a LAR ? That's 70 bullets + 21 Railgun ammo without the ammo perk (88 + 27 with). And you want to make it even more difficult to get ammo ? You are right we shoot already way too much as it is...

****ing hell, it's like you people don't want the Sharpshooter to have any use at all or be any fun. Just stand there at the back and shoot a few trash per wave until wave ~7 where you can add 3-4 Scrake and 1 Fleshpound.

With the railgun you can equip additional 5 blocks of weight. That makes 3 pistols on top of your 9mm. With that you can just destroy anything if you don't totally suck.

The railgun needs to become so expensive that it has to be funded by the team. So SC/FP get only trivial when the team actually wants that.

The M99 in KF1 is well balanced. The only reason why casuals render it "useless" is because it actually takes skill to make enough dosh for ammo with only a 9mm. And players that have that skill usually aren't interested in boring one-hit kills anyways. But the railgun is different because it leaves 5 blocks of weight for sidearms. This is more like the KF1 scrubbow. And this is where the travesty starts. TWI designed the new sharps around that casual **** and they totally messed up the LAR + EBR.


To fix the EBR take the stun away and increase damage. 14-16 hits on the fleshpound 3-point takedown is not fun. It comes down to how fast someone can click his mouse. I tried it out with an autoclicker, just for the giggles and it became easy. KF1 FP is 10 hits. Make the KF2 FP 10 hits with the EBR too. Gunslinger does it in 8 and the friggin railgun in 2. There is absolutely no reason to ruin the EBR like that.

 

[Reclusiarch]

With the railgun you can equip additional 5 blocks of weight. That makes 3 pistols on top of your 9mm. With that you can just destroy anything if you don't totally suck.

The railgun needs to become so expensive that it has to be funded by the team. So SC/FP get only trivial when the team actually wants that.

I'm SO FRIGGIN GLAD that you are not a KF2 developer.