v1038... how to make sharps even worse than before

[Gladius]

I'm pretty sure the railgun scrubs will have a bad awakening at some point.

 

[Insert Name Here]

As someone who isn't a KF1 expert, I'm wondering: what were the pros and cons of a LAR/EBR loadout vs XBow/Pistols (or any other SS loadout for that matter)?

 

[Tagasaki]

0.75×	Headshots from M14, lever-action, Husk Fireball Launcher, Flare revolver and Single Piston Long Musket.
0.35×	Crossbow headshots on suicidal and hell on earth.

This is the main reason, on higher difficulty 6p HoE FP.

 

[Escadin]

I'm pretty sure the railgun scrubs will have a bad awakening at some point.

You're just mad because you just had yours.

As someone who isn't a KF1 expert, I'm wondering: what were the pros and cons of a LAR/EBR loadout vs XBow/Pistols (or any other SS loadout for that matter)?

Not much really. You go without penetration power from pistols if you take LAR instead and you have to rely on flinch-lock instead of stun for scrakes (bottom line is the same). FP are actually easier than with the crossbow because you can finish it off during rage animation. Musket was probably the strongest weapon of sharpshooter all in all but I prefered it because you could run a gunslinger load-out (5 pistols) and still handle double FP with one mag.

 

[Gladius]

As someone who isn't a KF1 expert, I'm wondering: what were the pros and cons of a LAR/EBR loadout vs XBow/Pistols (or any other SS loadout for that matter)?

Xbow and pistols is the noob loadout. You have penetration and can bodyshot spam trash that is lined up. 2 hits SC and 3 for FP.


The LAR is the bread and butter rifle. A skilled player can handle everything with it. 6 hits for FP. Joining a game late as sharps: Sell the nubbow and buy a LAR. Fill up the ammo for the rest of the dosh and you're good to go for a whole wave.

The EBR is the thing for the non casuals. 10 hits FP. Flinchlocks SC. Has no penetration, so you need good accuracy. Bodyshot spam doesn't work like with penetrating pistols.

 

[clconx]

wich difficulty and how many players?
how many hours did u play as SS and KF2 at all?

Hoe 6p lev25
I don't know how many hours i played with SS (is there a counter? )
497h

 

[Gladius]

You're just mad because you just had yours.



Not much really. You go without penetration power from pistols if you take LAR instead and you have to rely on flinch-lock instead of stun for scrakes (bottom line is the same). FP are actually easier than with the crossbow because you can finish it off during rage animation. Musket was probably the strongest weapon of sharpshooter all in all but I prefered it because you could run a gunslinger load-out (5 pistols) and still handle double FP with one mag.

Your KF1 expertise makes me always barf in my mouth.

 

[Escadin]

Xbow and pistols is the noob loadout. You have penetration and can bodyshot spam trash that is lined up. 2 hits SC and 3 for FP.


The LAR is the bread and butter rifle. A skilled player can handle everything with it. 6 hits for FP. Joining a game late as sharps: Sell the nubbow and buy a LAR. Fill up the ammo for the rest of the dosh and you're good to go for a whole wave.

The EBR is the thing for the non casuals. 10 hits FP. Flinchlocks SC. Has no penetration, so you need good accuracy. Bodyshot spam doesn't work like with penetrating pistols.

Yes as I said there is practically no difference in the final result. Sharpshooter can accomplish anything with both load-outs but there are differences in how (obviously). Headshotting is always key or you will lose efficiency which shouldn't surprise anyone.

Edit: There is one noticable difference though: Weapons with stun (xbow, musket) make it easier to kill scrakes who got enraged by somebody else which makes them better for pub games.

 

[Ptigran]

With the railgun you can equip additional 5 blocks of weight. That makes 3 pistols on top of your 9mm. With that you can just destroy anything if you don't totally suck.

The railgun needs to become so expensive that it has to be funded by the team. So SC/FP get only trivial when the team actually wants that.

The M99 in KF1 is well balanced. The only reason why casuals render it "useless" is because it actually takes skill to make enough dosh for ammo with only a 9mm. And players that have that skill usually aren't interested in boring one-hit kills anyways. But the railgun is different because it leaves 5 blocks of weight for sidearms. This is more like the KF1 scrubbow. And this is where the travesty starts. TWI designed the new sharps around that casual **** and they totally messed up the LAR + EBR.

"The M99 in KF1 is well balanced" Proceed to demonstrate how it isn't.
Any weapon that requires asking for money to be of any use is garbage. You can ask for enough money by the time the first Scrakes show up, it's not going to happen. They have their own weapons/armor/ammo to buy, and yours to carry your ass.
And to top it off, it's not powerful enough to warrant it.

Can't do its job without outside help.
Can't use its own weapons to be viable.
Has to be crippled for over half the game.
Is a liability to the team.
Isn't the only one who can take care of big Zeds.
People sure are going to play Sharpshooter. Who cares if there is perks who can do his job without having to put up with this ****. Let's all handicap ourselves, our e-peen must grow.

You are as obnoxious as you are obsessed by your e-peen thinking anyone who doesn't think or do like you is a [insert one of the countless insults you throw]. Don't bother replying to me, I'm done with you. Or do bother, I don't care either way.

 

[Gladius]

"The M99 in KF1 is well balanced" Proceed to demonstrate how it isn't.
Any weapon that requires asking for money to be of any use is garbage. You can ask for enough money by the time the first Scrakes show up, it's not going to happen. They have their own weapons/armor/ammo to buy, and yours to carry your ***.
And to top it off, it's not powerful enough to warrant it.

Can't do its job without outside help.
Can't use its own weapons to be viable.
Has to be crippled for over half the game.
Is a liability to the team.
Isn't the only one who can take care of big Zeds.
People sure are going to play Sharpshooter. Who cares if there is perks who can do his job without having to put up with this ****. Let's all handicap ourselves, our e-peen must grow.

You are as obnoxious as you are obsessed by your e-peen thinking anyone who doesn't think or do like you is a [insert one of the countless insults you throw]. Don't bother replying to me, I'm done with you. Or do bother, I don't care either way.

lol

A sharps can one-shot everything with a perked 9mm besides sirens, husks, SC, FP. If you struggle with the 9mm so hard that you have to ask for dosh you're just bad.

 

[vealck]

Eh... M99 is actually perfectly playable in KF1 without asking anyone for money. But it's not something that an average player can pull off. And it's not feasible if entire team counts on the single M99 sharp to solve all their SC/FP problems all the time. But it doesn't matter, 250 dosh price is steep. Railgun slugs in KF2 could easily cost 100 a piece and it wouldn't hurt the game.


In a perfect world, players should have two options on how to play SS:

1) play-it-safe with railgun. Any mediocre player can kill scrakes safely with it, so the ammo pool and price should try to balance that. I guess current ammo pool is ok. Ammo could be more pricy, though.

2) trade some of the safety for better trash control with EBR, taking down SC or FP should take some skill. Flinchlock mechanic for SCs would be great here.

The problem is, right now taking EBR makes you pretty useless against biggies. Even when you manage to get a stun, it lasts so briefly you can't finish SC off. And that's pretty much bull*hit. Right now you can handle SCs better taking offperk hunting shotty than T3 sharp weapon, which is just crazy.

 

[taiiat]

i see the direction where this Thread is going - people like you are the reason why the internet considers Tripwire to have an extremely hostile, rude Community.

you complain about things that are 'terrible', then become a hypocrite and praise things that in Killing Floor were functionally identical.
prime example being 'spam' - you praise pointing towards a Scrake and magdumping being a 'combo', then talk negatively towards teams of Players working together to 'spam' at an Enemy to Kill it.
the one you praise is actually cheesier, where you turn off an Enemy by just magdumping at it.
not to mention the other half of that 'combo' being walking circles around the map, plinking at a Fleshpound to avoid enraging it, which is not a 'combo', it is cheesing Enemy AI due to its simplicity.


so all i can say is 'git gud', because relying on ways to turn off aspects of a Video Game to ensure success (or demanding them as 'good Game Mechanics') is the least skillfull way one could possibly play a game.

there's many Game Mechanics available to Players, perhaps you should learn how THIS game works, and use them. because the 'strategy' in THIS game, is much better than 'magdump into the head and Enemies are turned off' and 'kite around the map forever'. if you want those two things, please, stay with Killing Floor. all of those exploits you rely on are already there, we don't need them again.

A stun on a Scrake with 2-3 headshots was OP, but at least let us stun them if we get 4-6 concecutive headshots. M14 stunpower should be increased from 8 to 20 at least Imo.

i probably agree. i'm not sure about 20, but 15 sounds usable mathematically, 18 is probably 'good'.
15-18 would mean you could stun a Scrake with 6-7 Headshots (6.66R with 15, 5.55R with 18).
and with Ballistic Shock, 3-4 Headshots (3.33R with 15, 2.77R with 18).

15 is the more balanced of the two - can stun periodically alone normally, if you take the Stun Skill then can stun very well alone.

so post calculations since i used intuition first - 15 is actually 'good', 18 is 'very good'. funny how math works that way, once you understand it, you can make guesses and get basically 'right on the money' with stats for balancing.

 

[Jr175]

"The M99 in KF1 is well balanced" Proceed to demonstrate how it isn't.

You seem to misunderstand what balanced is. The railgun is a carbon copy of the M99 on crack, lighter and relatively just as strong as the old M99 while being cheaper to boot.

Any weapon that requires asking for money to be of any use is garbage. You can ask for enough money by the time the first Scrakes show up, it's not going to happen. They have their own weapons/armor/ammo to buy, and yours to carry your ***.

You show this greatly with this rather vague response.

At what point is it too "expensive" to maintain the ezpz mlg360endmenoscope kills? You know, the ones that are 1 to 2 hit kills? Yeah, those that don't really need much effort on follow up shots.
It should be HoE and maybe even Sui considering what kind of difficulty they are meant to impose on the player. If you mean normal and hard then I can sympathize with you, otherwise I find it nonsensical to steamroll the most dangerous enemies for cheap.

And to top it off, it's not powerful enough to warrant it.

Based off of what? Personal Opinion? What else would you have it do, to warrant a price increase?

Can't do its job without outside help.
Can't use its own weapons to be viable.
Has to be crippled for over half the game.
Is a liability to the team.
Isn't the only one who can take care of big Zeds.

Assuming you know how to use the 9 mil, you can hold your own and make short work of any mob. I really want to find the words to describe the situation without coming off like some elitist but,
If you think the guy who can shoot down scrakes in one shot and fps in 2 shots with penetration to boot on 6p HoE is somehow a liability to the team, while also being able to decap all trash in one shot and drop anything standing with a few more then you've left me speechless. Especially since you can buy the 240 rounds on the cheap.

Somehow though, the fact that you can carry better sidearms and do the same exact steamroll isn't raising flags for you.

 

[PopsiMun]

Being able to stun fleshpounds with a t3 that decaps them with about half a mag at the same time was stupid anyway. As long as you can still kill and stun scrakes (and yes you can) sharpshooter will be fine. You still get to decap fleshpounds in 14 shots ontop (less if you ditch ballistic shock). That said, just because you and me cannot land 14 consecutive headshots this fast right now doesn't mean it is impossible. Wasn't 14 about the same number it took to decap a fleshpound in KF1? I know for a fact people manage that despite the wonky hitboxes.




I am aware the railgun cannot remain is it is now. It should require more skill and more commitment but in a way that ties in the perk's skills and playstyle (already made suggestions as to how). Dumping a match worth of dosh into one mag is cheesy and boring as hell. The M99 was so unpopular because it's downside is plainly annoying and there were other - even better - ways to deal with fleshpounds and scrakes. Tripwire would be stupid not to learn from this.

It took 10 m14 headshots from level 6 sharpshooter on 6p HoE to kill a fleshpound in kf1.

I agree. The railgun needs nerfs BUT not damage nerfs. It needs to weigh more and cost more. Nerfing it's damage would be preventing sharpshooter from doing what it does best: big zed hunting.

 

[Escadin]

Gonna try to ask a civil question again:

Why exactly is everyone for a more expensive & heavier Railgun instead of one that is harder to use at the same effectiveness?

What makes the lazy route they took with M99 so attractive or is it just the first thing that pops into your mind?
Is the Eviscerator not enough of a negative example? And I don't need to remind anyone what happens when they nerf ammo or dosh income too much... It has happened several times and it became glaringly obvious this may balance things a bit but ruins the fun many people as well. Now, you're suggesting both at once! So why should they favour this solution over others?

Edit: Oh yeah almost forgot one thing: Do people even realize Sharpshooter doesn't get bonuses for his 9mm which makes it basically useless as a weapon? How exactly do you expect the perk to function at all if the LAR is still too good for a side-arm for you?

 

[Ptigran]

You seem to misunderstand what balanced is. The railgun is a carbon copy of the M99 on crack, lighter and relatively just as strong as the old M99 while being cheaper to boot.

Yeah it's a carbon copy on crack. And KF2 is a carbon copy of KF1 on crack.
The Zeds don't move the same, the game is way faster. If you can't see how it impact weapons balance it's pointless to continue further. KF2 is faster than KF1, the Zeds and their hit-boxes move a lot more. Fleshpounds are always going to rage in KF2, Scrake too if you are not quick enough to kill them (and with the nerfed stuns it's going to happen). And you can't cheese them with LoS breaking or flinching.
But somehow that indicates you that a similar weapon should be balanced the same way ? It's not the same game, the balance therefore isn't the same. Any KF1 balance should be left in KF1 (The thought of KF1 being balanced is hilarious, lets not go there).

You show this greatly with this rather vague response.

At what point is it too "expensive" to maintain the ezpz mlg360endmenoscope kills? You know, the ones that are 1 to 2 hit kills? Yeah, those that don't really need much effort on follow up shots.
It should be HoE and maybe even Sui considering what kind of difficulty they are meant to impose on the player. If you mean normal and hard then I can sympathize with you, otherwise I find it nonsensical to steamroll the most dangerous enemies for cheap.

By wave 4-5 people will have enough to buy their T4 if they have been sparse in their spending.
But you are in the perfect situation where everyone joined from the start and not mid-game, where there wasn't any death. So not your average match. With a higher cost you are saying that **** those situation, the Railgun can only be used on perfect matches. Well that's ****.
The EBR is awful to take down big Zeds, it's a trash clearing weapon. Sharpshooter have to be able to use the Railgun by the time big Zeds spawns.

It's one-shot only on Scrakes if you have selected the right perks. Which if you use the Railgun is a major downside, not boosting your stuns/reloads is a big downside when using Railgun/LAR. Don't sweep it away like it doesn't matter.
You act as killing big Zeds in 1-2 shots is broken. It is if you ignore the downsides. The massive reload times, the difficulty to handle trash, the limited ammo pool, your limited mag size (10 and 1).
You act like everything is the perfect situation where your team handle any trash that you can't, are always here to help you get your shot on big Zeds by cleaning up the floor so you don't miss after a knocback. That Scarkes/Fleshpounds spawn in front of you and no one on your team is going to make them rage before you can land a shot.

As for the difficulty, more Zeds/Zed damage/faster Zeds is challenging. Bullet Sponge/high cost is tedious.
Getting the headshot on the Scrakes/Fleshpounds shouldn't be the difficult part. Getting you there by making it possible to take the shot should be.

Based off of what? Personal Opinion? What else would you have it do, to warrant a price increase?

Based on the fast-paced gameplay. If it's not powerful as is it now to 1-2 shot, it's going to be useless. Sharpshooter need the firepower to take down quick the big Zeds. If you can't take them down before they are on you the weapon failed at its only use.
Nerfing the Railgun with its cost or damage is not the way to balance it. There are other thing to tweak without neutering the Sharpshooters only tool to do its job.
Weapon weigh (So no offperk weapon to handle trash), weapon switch speed, reload speed, ammo pool, mag size, trash spawning near/targeting Sharpshooter in priority. Those can be used to put the perk where it should be, unmatched to take down big Zeds fast and bottom of the barrel for handling trash.

Assuming you know how to use the 9 mil, you can hold your own and make short work of any mob. I really want to find the words to describe the situation without coming off like some elitist but,
If you think the guy who can shoot down scrakes in one shot and fps in 2 shots with penetration to boot on 6p HoE is somehow a liability to the team, while also being able to decap all trash in one shot and drop anything standing with a few more then you've left me speechless. Especially since you can buy the 240 rounds on the cheap.

In KF1 I would agree, the 9mm is enough to carry you. In KF2, yeah no.
Only with the Railgun and 9mm you are going to be a liability. Too much **** going at you too fast, and it leaves you with nothing to handle Sirens/Husks. So yeah you are a liability to your team if you can't afford/carry LAR/Railgun.

Somehow though, the fact that you can carry better sidearms and do the same exact steamroll isn't raising flags for you.

I don't recall saying it wasn't a problem. If anything I recall saying offperk weapons is a no go. Offperk is fine for other perks, not for Sharpshooters, being able to handle big Zeds in 1-2 shots should be more restricted.
I agree, Sharpshooters going offperk to be able to handle trash while carrying the Railgun is a problem.
There are easy way arround it. Lower Sharpshooters' base weight capacity to 14 and give them a passive to lower the LAR weight. (I'm not sure how it impact Crossbow/EBR loadout though)

 

[Gladius]

i see the direction where this Thread is going - people like you are the reason why the internet considers Tripwire to have an extremely hostile, rude Community.

you complain about things that are 'terrible', then become a hypocrite and praise things that in Killing Floor were functionally identical.
prime example being 'spam' - you praise pointing towards a Scrake and magdumping being a 'combo', then talk negatively towards teams of Players working together to 'spam' at an Enemy to Kill it.
the one you praise is actually cheesier, where you turn off an Enemy by just magdumping at it.
not to mention the other half of that 'combo' being walking circles around the map, plinking at a Fleshpound to avoid enraging it, which is not a 'combo', it is cheesing Enemy AI due to its simplicity.

What the hell are you talking about? Did anyone call kiting KF1 FP a combo? This is about sharps and not rage mechanics. And how would you call taking down SC/FP in KF2 if not „magdumping“? In KF1 every perk can handle everything. KF2 trys to force that „teamwork“ down players throats. Not everyone likes that. If you think that gangbang spam chaos is good gameplay, that's just your personal opinion. In my book proper teamwork is not "enemy big, everyone shoot much". Teamwork is when one player is engaging that SC/FP to take it down in fun way. Be it a combo, flinchlock, speedkill or whatever. And this is only possible when that player gets covered by the rest of the team while doing so. The problem with KF2 is that there aren't much combos possible to begin with. Because there are not much weapons available and that linear weapon tier system.

And it's just sad to see how many players never got familiar with that KF1 combo culture.

i probably agree. i'm not sure about 20, but 15 sounds usable mathematically, 18 is probably 'good'.
15-18 would mean you could stun a Scrake with 6-7 Headshots (6.66R with 15, 5.55R with 18).
and with Ballistic Shock, 3-4 Headshots (3.33R with 15, 2.77R with 18).

15 is the more balanced of the two - can stun periodically alone normally, if you take the Stun Skill then can stun very well alone.

so post calculations since i used intuition first - 15 is actually 'good', 18 is 'very good'. funny how math works that way, once you understand it, you can make guesses and get basically 'right on the money' with stats for balancing.

Stunning FP is a travesty to begin with. TWI failed so far to design a good system for LAR/EBR. Instead they designed sharps around the KF1 bowscrub what is here the railgun.

TWI should ditch that whole stun FP concept and design something better. Bring flinchlocking back, with new animations or anything.

LAR/EBR is a bad joke.

 

[Jr175]

Gonna try to ask a civil question again:

Why exactly is everyone for a more expensive & heavier Railgun instead of one that is harder to use at the same effectiveness?

Because for me, this is a sort of privilege weapon, if it's going to be good even on HoE. There should be more restriction on what you can solo primarily because of how the game should be.
I'm not going to say, "turn the rail in the M99" since that would be stupid. And yet, a price nerf is definitely in order. 150 sounds like a good middle ground since you still earn a decent amount of dosh later on for whatever reason without being too expensive like kf1.

Barring all of that, what do you think would make it more skill hungry to use? It's a **** you cannon when it comes to killing the biggies.

Edit: Oh yeah almost forgot one thing: Do people even realize Sharpshooter doesn't get bonuses for his 9mm which makes it basically useless as a weapon? How exactly do you expect the perk to function at all if the LAR is still too good for a side-arm for you?

If you're referring to what I wrote here:

Spoiler!

Assuming you know how to use the 9 mil, you can hold your own and make short work of any mob. I really want to find the words to describe the situation without coming off like some elitist but,
If you think the guy who can shoot down scrakes in one shot and fps in 2 shots with penetration to boot on 6p HoE is somehow a liability to the team, while also being able to decap all trash in one shot and drop anything standing with a few more then you've left me speechless. Especially since you can buy the 240 rounds on the cheap.

Somehow though, the fact that you can carry better sidearms and do the same exact steamroll isn't raising flags for you.

It was to show that you don't even need to use what I find to be a useless appendage in kf2 to carry yourself just as before.

Yeah it's a carbon copy on crack. And KF2 is a carbon copy of KF1 on crack.
The Zeds don't move the same, the game is way faster. If you can't see how it impact weapons balance it's pointless to continue further. KF2 is faster than KF1, the Zeds and their hit-boxes move a lot more. Fleshpounds are always going to rage in KF2, Scrake too if you are not quick enough to kill them (and with the nerfed stuns it's going to happen). And you can't cheese them with LoS breaking or flinching.
But somehow that indicates you that a similar weapon should be balanced the same way ? It's not the same game, the balance therefore isn't the same. Any KF1 balance should be left in KF1 (The thought of KF1 being balanced is hilarious, lets not go there).

I really hate seeing a cop out reply of, "kf1 =/= kf2 therefore do not compare and contrast or otherwise make inferences as to what should or should not be brought over". It's vacuous to think like this, and it really shows whenever another forum user uses this out of convenience. What you quoted was so far removed from how kf1 was balanced as a whole that I don't see why you would feel the need to even write this.

And as an actual point with merit, yes the faster pace of the game should be considered but I'm not trying to say slow the rail down;I'm saying that the rail should be made more expensive, to restrict the ease of access to a rotflstomp gun. Which is something I should've made clear when I posted the reply.

By wave 4-5 people will have enough to buy their T4 if they have been sparse in their spending.
But you are in the perfect situation where everyone joined from the start and not mid-game, where there wasn't any death. So not your average match. With a higher cost you are saying that **** those situation, the Railgun can only be used on perfect matches. Well that's ****.
The EBR is awful to take down big Zeds, it's a trash clearing weapon. Sharpshooter have to be able to use the Railgun by the time big Zeds spawns.

Again, if you mean normal and hard I can agree. If it's leeway that you want on the hardest difficulty though, why bother? These contradictions man.

It's one-shot only on Scrakes if you have selected the right perks. Which if you use the Railgun is a major downside, not boosting your stuns/reloads is a big downside when using Railgun/LAR. Don't sweep it away like it doesn't matter.
You act as killing big Zeds in 1-2 shots is broken. It is if you ignore the downsides. The massive reload times, the difficulty to handle trash, the limited ammo pool, your limited mag size (10 and 1).
You act like everything is the perfect situation where your team handle any trash that you can't, are always here to help you get your shot on big Zeds by cleaning up the floor so you don't miss after a knocback. That Scarkes/Fleshpounds spawn in front of you and no one on your team is going to make them rage before you can land a shot.

*gasp* There are downsides to choosing perks in perk trees now? Maybe TWI is finally getting the hang of that thing people call balance and free will?
Please don't argue using incompetence. I remember the last time I made a thread some other forum user kept arguing through incompetence and flat out made no sense. The idea isn't to play perfect, rather at a level that is considered good or better than most.
When does a scrake or fleshpound spawn in front of players? Maybe those that kite but then why sharp w/rail?

As for the difficulty, more Zeds/Zed damage/faster Zeds is challenging. Bullet Sponge/high cost is tedious.
Getting the headshot on the Scrakes/Fleshpounds shouldn't be the difficult part. Getting you there by making it possible to take the shot should be.

Please proofread contradictions. Also, I'm not arguing for damage nerfs.

Based on the fast-paced gameplay. If it's not powerful as is it now to 1-2 shot, it's going to be useless. Sharpshooter need the firepower to take down quick the big Zeds. If you can't take them down before they are on you the weapon failed at its only use.
Nerfing the Railgun with its cost or damage is not the way to balance it. There are other thing to tweak without neutering the Sharpshooters only tool to do its job.
Weapon weigh (So no offperk weapon to handle trash), weapon switch speed, reload speed, ammo pool, mag size, trash spawning near/targeting Sharpshooter in priority. Those can be used to put the perk where it should be, unmatched to take down big Zeds fast and bottom of the barrel for handling trash.

I'm again, not asking for damage or weight nerfs, just controlling how often you fire at things in a wave through how many rounds you can purchase is enough.

Edit:Again, how is it useless to one shot or two shot any zed with semi decent aim?

In KF1 I would agree, the 9mm is enough to carry you. In KF2, yeah no.
Only with the Railgun and 9mm you are going to be a liability. Too much **** going at you too fast, and it leaves you with nothing to handle Sirens/Husks. So yeah you are a liability to your team if you can't afford/carry LAR/Railgun.

Broken record at this point I know. I should've clarified in the original post that I don't want to nerf the weight but that it does deserve a price nerf.

 

[Escadin]

And yet, a price nerf is definitely in order. 150 sounds like a good middle ground since you still earn a decent amount of dosh later on for whatever reason without being too expensive like kf1.

Barring all of that, what do you think would make it more skill hungry to use? It's a **** you cannon when it comes to killing the biggies.

I could understand an ammo nerf comparable to what support got for his AA12 back in the day. Then again they just had to revert it because other perks caught up. Same thing might happen when people start to fully utilize what other options there are and then you have an expensive clunky weapon that provides little to no advantage over more conventional methods. Dual magnums or AA12 already kill FP faster and allow their perks to carry better side-arms than their T1. The only advantage Railgun still has is range and ease of use so the arms race has already begun.


However, putting it's full efficiency behind a higher skill cap can never hurt. I've already made a suggestion for this but I'm sure there are others as well. Just gonna sum it up here:

Spoiler!

Make the railgun's current performance dependent on all +damage skills and full rack 'em up stacks. That way you...

• put people using it in a situation where they can only take pot shots at trash limiting their trash clearing capabilities to their best performance using LAR only
• ensure people only use T1 sharpshooter weapons with 5KG to get the stack full and not a bunch of pistols or C&B for extra trash cleaning
• interweave the weapons drawbacks with the skill tree and make it part of the class mechanics as opposed to an artificial STOP sign enormous weight or ammo cost would be
• make it harder to carry bad teams that rely on you for both trash cleaning AND giant slaying
• force sharpshooter to depend on good positioning and someone to cover his back (stability + marksman)
• punish trigger frenzy

And just to prove there are in fact other options:

Spoiler!

Reduce reload time and add a charge up delay to the shot (with FX, animation and sound - same effective rate of fire). That way people have to consistently aim for heads for a short duration without being interrupted or losing line of sight. Holding your scope over a scrakes' head for a split second is easy. However, holding it there for a moment without interruption is harder. Could also be used for the lock on mode or even potentially to merge both.

Anyway, you may disagree with these 2 but it's very likely there are more options to increase the skill cap. That's why I don't see a need to make the gun artificially worse.

 

[taiiat]

Bring flinchlocking back

i have lost interest reading the same baby whining over and over. if you want to be able to turn the game off as 'strategy', just use a Testmap where you have buttons linked to disabling AI so you can play a Shooting Gallery.

so this Thread is a lost cause.