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Beta Map RO-Makhnovo released

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#61
I'm in a bit of a dilemna about this because I want it to be playable but I also want realism. IRL halftracks weren't used for busting down doors of fortified buildings etc. (fun though that is)

They would stop some distance fom the target and troops would skedaddle across the remaining piece of open ground, usually with covering fire from the HT MG and possibly a proned MG-34. That is what more seasoned axis players on this map actually do. In a way it's good that some players have persevered as axis enough to find this kind of thing out, picking up genuine Mot. Inf. tactics, rather than just saying, "The hell with this map, I'm off to play nabruska!" (or something)

I would prefer this map to be a slow starter, with people gradually developing sitaution/map-specific tactical skills than to have everything spelled out for them about how they're expected to achieve certain tactical success.

For this reason, I'm actually glad that I haven't yet put this one to bed yet - I need to see how teams that really know a) this map and b) their ***** get thru it.

If, after a while, it still seems like a turkey shoot for the Russians then removing nades is one option.
 
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#62
The HT has an open top. In reality getting too close *would* make the thing a nade magnet. Same with unloading- and that's further balanced out by the fact that everyone pops out of it instantly. (how DOES that thing unload, anyway? Back ramp?)

The problem with removing grenades is affects the balance of the entire map, not just vs the HT.
 
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#63
Any time I have played, either as Russian or German, I never noticed a problem with nades holding up the Germans. Its their own fault if most of the time they drive up the halftrack (predictably...) next to the well at the side of the building and get naded. When playing as Germans, I use that method AND others to reach the first objective.
 
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#64
Phoenix-D said:
You can run ANY RO map at 1600x1200 with a 128MB card?

I'd definitely say leave the grenades in. The HT bug isn't that significant.
Click to expand...
Of course I can run "any" map. Problem is just that makhnovo especially will run out video memory in 1600x1200.

This happens RARELY in some official maps also.
I have to play 1280x1024 to ensure high fps without random fps chokes, until I buy new video card :/
(I love how RO looks in 1600x1200)
 
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#67
Ok Nestor, here we go.
You were there in the same game so you know what I'm talking about.
This map seemed unbalanced and today I found out why it is unbalanced.

The game we played didn't went very well for the Axis, in fact we were chanceless. Not that the team was bad: there were many vets and we even coordinated attacks with 2 HT's at the same time. All to no avail, we never capped the poshta, nor the other 2 objects. The defenders were vets too and if they know what to do then only a miracle can save the germans from total frustration & defeat.

The thing is: your distances are unbalanced.
I timed them all roughly and you'll see why this map is unbalanced.

Times to reach the Poshta (1st objective)
* Axis on foot: 70 seconds
* Axis in HT: 38 seconds
* Allies: 40 seconds

Let me explain: if I spawn and walk to a HT, jump in and drive away immediatly then it takes me roughly the same time to reach the objective as an allied soldier. Sounds good, but it isn't ;) The HT is not always there and when it's there it ussually waits for other teammates to fill it. So this perfect time of 38 secs is never achieved and axis are born to loose *cough*

Conclusion about Poshta
When teams are both vets the time to the object is decisive and allies will never loose it.

Times to reach station (2nd objective)
* Axis 55 seconds
* Axis in HT 36 seconds
* Allies 35 seconds

Conclusion about station
When teams are both vets the time to the object is decisive and allies will never loose it.

Times to reach church (3rd objective)
* Axis on foot: 75 seconds
* Axis in HT: 40 seconds
* Allies: 30 seconds

Same argument as the poshta objective: the axis HT time is never achieved for the same reasons.

Conclusion about church
When teams are both vets the time to the object is decisive and allies will never loose it.

So in short: fix the distances.
The HT should be used as a tactical weapon not as a taxi. So I suggest to let the germans spawn more close by. The advantage of the HT has proven to be not very big when playing.
The church objective is a very nice one which hardly sees any fighting, that's ashame.

Just thinking out loud, but IMO something needs to be done :)

Monk.
 
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#68
Very good points - I am not sure how I could address the problems with the distances without totally reconfiguring the map. That is something I am very loth to do. It would mean major structural changes.

One thing I will probably do is make the capping a bit easier - remember that the axis only need a momentary advantage to cap (well actually a minute or so as it is right now) and once they take it, that's it, so I have adjusted the cap times.

The Russians do spawn less frequently than the axis but only a 5 seconds longer wait. I don't think changing this a lot will help.

The main emphasis of this map has always been that the axis find it tough but 'claw' their way forwards through momentary tactical advantages which the cap helps them to consolidate.

The information you have given me basically provides me with enough impetus to get this one done and finished. I have the RSBC stuff to deal with now and keeping a handle on the work of ten people is not an easy matter, let me tell you.
 
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#72
Don't worry about the time frames. People have been playing Orel's betas for some time now and are perfectly cool with waiting. I personally would rather wait for a quality map than have a rushed, imperfect one.

As for the nading of the HTs, I think that's a problem with who's driving the thing. Don't drive it right up to the house. There's a relatively open field that the HT can drive up to, unload, and provide covering fire from the MG for the advance. if you simply lie prone at the front door, you can cap the Poshta pretty quickly. The front door's probably the best place to attack, too, since you have fewer windows facing you (thus fewer concealed enemy shooters).

I personally love all the vegetation because it allows you to advance under cover instead of wandering around in some huge empty field with a big "SHOOT ME" sign over your head.

I still find the squad level MGs to be fairly useless on this map for Germans, though, but that's either because I suck with them, or because the Germans don't have a lot of great places to deploy. In attacking the Poshta you're ok, but with the Station I didn't see a ton of great deployment spots. I suppose that's a matter of learning the map better but it was just my sense of things.

I'll say this, though -- I LOVE that half tracks actually have a purpose on this map. On a lot of maps, half tracks simply seem to be "The vehicle you take when you can't find a tank" instead of actual troop transports. So big kudos on that. :)
 
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#74
I do have 2 suggestions Nestor and it won't cost much work either.

1) make the germans spawn closer to the poshta
2) change the role from the HT from a taxi-role to a gunship/support role

So germans don't have to take the HT to reach the poshta in time, but can go on foot without loosing too much time in comparison to the allied distances. If they want to use the HT that's fine too, but it ussually takes more time. If they don't they could use the HT as a supportive fireplatform, it's mg can be used to cover the advance without having to worry about the transportation role.

That's it.
You only have to find a good spawning spot for the germans now :)

Monk.
 
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#75
Some problems....

- I know that it's supposed to be a sunny day, but the light is too bright on most buildings and terrain elements while shadows are too dark. Things should blend together more naturally.

shot00075.jpg


- Too much vegetation, the bright green plants that appear along the little fences are the worst. They look bad and out of place. I'm sure the map would still have plenty of cover without those.

shot00073.jpg


- The small huts can be difficult to get in and out of.

- The map makes my FPS drop to the lowest I have seen on any RO map so far.

shot00056.jpg
 
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#76
Whoever timed the travel times has a point, but the way I see it is the HT's advantage lies in the fact that it can get a large amount of troops to the same position at the same time. 6+ people can be delivered to the objective, contrary to the reinforcement "trickle" that the Russians rely on. When you are fighting with primarily bolt action rifles, numbers matter.
 
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#77
If you have been in South Russia/Ukraine on a sunny summer day you would realise that I have, if anything, underplayed the lighting.

I know a lot of people prefer the 'gritty' look that seems to have been in vogue since, I dunno, DoD-Donner but it is only one option in the box for a map designer and frankly, I would rather show what I have personally seen than reinforce people's pre-conception that all wars take place in a world which has been washed over with grey grit.

By the way, that third screenie looks great - I may use that for the final release thread, if that's OK with you, Oi!Oi!Oi!

There will be an optimised version out soon (I didn't manage to release it last night 'cos fatigue from my day's work took me out).

Monk - I dunno if you will get your wish or not. You may just have to end up hating me for leaving the spawn position as it is and decreasing cap times.
 
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#78
*7GA* Nestor Makhno said:
Monk - I dunno if you will get your wish or not. You may just have to end up hating me for leaving the spawn position as it is and decreasing cap times.
Click to expand...
Nah it's your baby, do as you like. I'll just play it as sovjet (and stay out of the poshta) until the poshta is capped and then I'll switch to the german side :D

Btw: also your third cappoint has some major unbalance built-in, you might want to look into that one too. Until now not many players have felt this, because most games seem to be stuck on the poshta ;)
 
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#79
I have capped the third on a full server many a time - the only thing I have noticed is that the battle tends to finish when the Russians run out of re-inforcements.

If, by 'imbalance', you mean, "takes longer for attackers to reach than it does defenders" then it is imbalanced, as is nearly every other map's last objective.

Sorry if i am starting to come across as a bit combative about criticisms of this map, be they constructive or not, but I am getting to the point where I care more about my next project than I do about this one and I just want it out of the way. This is particularly the case as it seems that there will always be something about it that someone, somewhere doesn't like.
 
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#80
*7GA* Nestor Makhno said:
I have capped the third on a full server many a time - the only thing I have noticed is that the battle tends to finish when the Russians run out of re-inforcements.
Click to expand...
Well I have only seen it capped when the defenders have no reinforcements left. Which tells us that the cappoint is unbalanced. Personally I'm against reinforcements all together since setting them doesn't solve anything (nor does it work in public servers) , but that's another discussion.

If you feel the map is ok for now: just leave it like it is.
Of course there will always be others with different opinions about your creations: as a mapper you'll get them for free :p

Monk.
 
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