MG ramboing

[Sulman]

Hell, every time I see that video, I wish I could run the game and FRAPS at the same time, to record any of the times I've had similar runs with a bolt-action rifle. It's not so much the weapon as the completely inattentive enemies he's fighting.

You've actually described the fundamental issue I have with RO2, period.

It is interesting to me you state without any irony that it is also possible to twitch one's way around a level with a bolter, and not only is it possible, you've done it. More than once.

This kind of game play's a huge turn off for me, but I respect that people like it.

 

[CocaineInMyBrain]

You've actually described the fundamental issue I have with RO2, period.

It is interesting to me you state without any irony that it is also possible to twitch one's way around a level with a bolter, and not only is it possible, you've done it. More than once.

This kind of game play's a huge turn off for me, but I respect that people like it.

I think you are missing the big point. Said game-play could be replicated in Ostfront too, if the same clueless and inattentive people were present. In fact I'd wager the person could of repeated that even with an AT rifle, having to set up prone each time to kill some one - notice how pretty much none of his victims even looked back.

 

[Sulman]

I think you are missing the big point. Said game-play could be replicated in Ostfront too, if the same clueless and inattentive people were present. In fact I'd wager the person could of repeated that even with an AT rifle, having to set up prone each time to kill some one - notice how pretty much none of his victims even looked back.

I'm not missing anything.

I honestly don't think you could. A hipshooting ace (I'm crap at that, and think most are, from experience) maybe could pull it off, but it would rely on those players staying inattentive for a far greater amount of time.

The speed is my point. It's the speed. Look how fast your avatar does everything.

 

[CocaineInMyBrain]

I'm not missing anything.

I honestly don't think you could. A hipshooting ace (I'm crap at that, and think most are, from experience) maybe could pull it off, but it would rely on those players staying inattentive for a far greater amount of time.

The speed is my point. It's the speed. Look how fast your avatar does everything.

What exactly is prevent you from using your IS on your rifle, or for that matter your bayonet? In fact using a bayonet is probably preferable as it is much lower on the loudness.

About the speed, its been discussed to death here but some basic points :

1.the run speed in Realism is more realistic than what we had in Ostfront and in Classic HOWEVER

2. it does not take into account variables like slopes, rough terrain, snow, water, or stairs. Thus some of the silliness we see in that video.

3. this is "fastness" is further highlighted by the small stock maps we have.


Furthermore, keep in mind that the person was obviously playing on a fairly empty server, which just makes infiltration like that much much easier. Anyone that's ever played Station (Realism or CLassic) on a full 64 player server can attest that any such German MG attempting the same thing would be dropped before he got anywhere near the building, and if by some lucky chance he did, he would likely get popped by the streams of Russian reinforcements within 1 or 2 kills.

 

[Sulman]

1.the run speed in Realism is more realistic than what we had in Ostfront and in Classic HOWEVER

2. it does not take into account variables like slopes, rough terrain, snow, water, or stairs. Thus some of the silliness we see in that video.

3. this is "fastness" is further highlighted by the small stock maps we have.

See, I am not talking about running speed. It's everything. Everything is fast in realism. Sprint-stop-aim(precisely)-shoot is very rapid; an order of magnitude quicker than Ostfront. The MG34 shows it off particularly well, but it is pretty simple to identify.

 

[PhoenixDragon]

If you ignore the kills, though, and just imagine its an obstacle course with targets and look at it from a physical perspective, there are parts of the video which would be impossible to replicate with a real-world weapon of that weight (even ignoring the ridiculousness of the 250-round belt, presumably being dragged around everywhere by the gunner without a stoppage).

150 rounds. But yeah, there really should be some sort of movement difference when going between the 50-round assault pack and a 150-round belt. Something to make the 150-round belt less handy on the move. I think that would improve things nicely; 50-round assault pack for more mobile MGers, 150-round belts for those that spend more time emplaced.

It is interesting to me you state without any irony that it is also possible to twitch one's way around a level with a bolter, and not only is it possible, you've done it. More than once.

No "twitch" to it. Most of his targets were completely oblivious. If anyone had been covering approaches to keep the enemy from getting behind their lines, not only would I have not been able to do that with my bolt-action, the guy in the video would have failed with his MG. "Going on the offense" is not the same as "twitch gameplay." A single rifleman covering his approach would have ended his entire rush before he had gotten a single kill.

When you see a video like this, you have to wonder how many times he got massacred trying to do that before he lucked out and found a path they're not defending. Kamikaze rushes like that could have worked in the real-world with most weapons (Particularly a SMG or semi-auto), but they weren't done because, even if it succeeded, you were going to die very quickly. Most soldiers don't want to die! People playing a game, though, they figure if they can get a few kills before someone takes them out, it's a life well-spent; respawn and do it again.

 

[Proud_God]

Not many will realize it, or admit it, but that famous video actually also shows one of the downsides of zoom: players were less aware of the rambo because a lot of them were zoomed in. 3/4 of their screen was gone.

 

[CocaineInMyBrain]

Not many will realize it, or admit it, but that famous video actually also shows one of the downsides of zoom: players were less aware of the rambo because a lot of them were zoomed in. 3/4 of their screen was gone.

And yet some will still bitterly argue that zoom makes it impossible to play offensively and makes people "camping" able to flick away attackers at will

 

[Sarkis.]

I don't think not zooming or zooming would have done those guys too many favors. That video was from back on the day where everyone was a massive rookie in RO2. The game was not even 2 months old. No one really had anything else in their minds besides finding a spot and shooting at other people.

And there is nothing so special about the video. The old MG34 with the 250 round belt, without the recent hipfire change, was a monstrously good weapon. Back on the day, with no client hit detection to speak of, anyone with that monster weapon going against hapless rookie russians most of which didn't even have the PPSh41 drum, or bayonets, or them MKb42s, with all sorts of performance issues.. That's what happens. So in terms of gameplay, all was working nicely.

Obviously, for the realism argument... the belt would have been a hindrance, the very weight of the gun, stairs are always a problem for everyone, maneuvering through some doors, all that would each take its toll on a person's mobility, which they don't in game.

As of today, since RO2 changed a lot, players got a lot better etc, this video has gotten too outdated and we should hardly discuss it.

Hipfiring with the MG hasn't changed very much thought, and they are still perfectly able to outdraw a submachine gunner. Which then again, is still the merit of the MG player, but from a realism and balance perspective, should probably be dealt with slightly different by the game.

As in.. the MG dude should take some two or three deciseconds more to raise his weapon coming out of a sprint. In addition, the belt should have a intrinsic penalty on agility. But not so that choosing the belt fed MG34 automatically institutes a fixed penalty on speed. Instead, each bullet you carry in your belt individually adding up to your penalty, such that when you only have 50 bullets or so, you can move just as well as the MG34 gunner with the drum.

Doing that, we could even bring back the old 250 round belt as a forth option, since that would be automatically a toxic option for any one thinking of going rambo with his gun. Not impossible, but simply really bad, undesirable, fat.

That way we would have 4 kinds of MG34 selection:

 

[PhoenixDragon]

Not many will realize it, or admit it, but that famous video actually also shows one of the downsides of zoom: players were less aware of the rambo because a lot of them were zoomed in. 3/4 of their screen was gone.

Although in most cases (The people shooting out the windows), he would have been outside their cone of vision, anyway. On the typical monitor, we get a 90-degree FoV. So, while the edge of their vision is about 45 degrees off their aim-point, he was about 80-90 degrees.

While he would have been within peripheral vision in real-life, he was well outside the FoV of many of those players, even unzoomed. That's why they introduced the peripheral-marker system.

(Which, of course, has its own flaws, but that's mainly a matter of how it was implemented)

Hipfiring with the MG hasn't changed very much thought, and they are still perfectly able to outdraw a submachine gunner.

I keep seeing people claim this, but the MGs are not faster to go from moving to shooting than the SMGs (Or any other weapon).

Plus the SMG has the advantage of being able to go to iron-sights, of course.

 

[Proud_God]

Although in most cases (The people shooting out the windows), he would have been outside their cone of vision, anyway.

Fair enough, I should have stated 'a good deal of victims' instead of 'a lot'.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

I'm not missing anything.

I honestly don't think you could. A hipshooting ace (I'm crap at that, and think most are, from experience) maybe could pull it off, but it would rely on those players staying inattentive for a far greater amount of time.

The speed is my point. It's the speed. Look how fast your avatar does everything.

In Ostfront, I could. It was rare, but I've done it on a few maps. I can recall several times where I would clear out the entire trenchline behind the Farm on Berezina as a rifleman. I either got lucky and no one saw me or I surprised the others and got off the first shot or a bayonet attack. Full servers too. Some of the most intense and luckiest times I ever had in that game, my hands would be shaking afterwards

 

[C3-Delta]

If not by adding the old ro1 way....then at least add a considerable amount of recoil like ro1 did....I have fired many weapons in my time...and too say that the heavy 8mm round kicks,a bit...it may be trimmed down some with the weight of the mg34...but not enough for the almost no recoil in ro2...add more recoil and a few more disadvantages to stop the mg smgers...yes it can be done...but should limit you to the 'oh crap' situation....like an enemy popping up on you close.my .02

 

[Spetz]

I keep seeing people claim this, but the MGs are not faster to go from moving to shooting than the SMGs (Or any other weapon).

Plus the SMG has the advantage of being able to go to iron-sights, of course.

The problem is that the MG damage is so much higher than the SMG: one MG bullet is rifle calibre and if you take a hit from that you are not firing back; whereas a single PPSH bullet fired unaccurately from the hip is very unlikely to cause a critical hit. So even though the time taken to go from moving to shooting is similar, the damage per second rate of the MG is much higher. In real life, taking a hit from a SMG bullet at close range without armour would seriously limit your ability to fire back with a hefty MG. Conceptually, the SMG should win most of the time in a surprise fight at close range with a lone MG. But in RO2 this doesn't happen.

 

[PhoenixDragon]

The problem is that the MG damage is so much higher than the SMG

Yes, but the SMG is much more likely to land that hit. There's also the variability in where you hit, etc. And the difference in damage isn't that significant, if you hit the same locations the worst-case scenario is one more round to kill for the SMG (Mind, for non-critical torso shots that's 1 shot for the MG and 2 for the SMG, unless the SMG passes through two zones, a not uncommon occurrence). Of course, it'd all be somewhat moot if they had the aim-kick on being hit actually working (It's bizarre that they've left the game in a state where you have a penalty to your aim for a round landing near you, but not for hitting you).

However, none of this has anything to do with the frequently-repeated recent claim that MGs "out-draw" SMGs. They demonstrably do not.

In my experience, the SMG (Particularly the PPSh) has always done better than the MG in close-quarters. Being able to shoot accurately at 5-10m comes much quicker on the SMGs, particularly once you understand the details of how the iron-sight mode works. The difference in time between the MG-34 firing one round and the PPSh firing 2 is just shy of six hundredths of a second. The weapon that lands the rounds on-target first is going to be the one most likely to win, and the SMGs have the advantage there.

 

[Spetz]

Yes, but the SMG is much more likely to land that hit. There's also the variability in where you hit, etc. And the difference in damage isn't that significant, if you hit the same locations the worst-case scenario is one more round to kill for the SMG (Mind, for non-critical torso shots that's 1 shot for the MG and 2 for the SMG, unless the SMG passes through two zones, a not uncommon occurrence). Of course, it'd all be somewhat moot if they had the aim-kick on being hit actually working (It's bizarre that they've left the game in a state where you have a penalty to your aim for a round landing near you, but not for hitting you).

However, none of this has anything to do with the frequently-repeated recent claim that MGs "out-draw" SMGs. They demonstrably do not.

In my experience, the SMG (Particularly the PPSh) has always done better than the MG in close-quarters. Being able to shoot accurately at 5-10m comes much quicker on the SMGs, particularly once you understand the details of how the iron-sight mode works. The difference in time between the MG-34 firing one round and the PPSh firing 2 is just shy of six hundredths of a second. The weapon that lands the rounds on-target first is going to be the one most likely to win, and the SMGs have the advantage there.

Yes, I think what you say is true at ranges of 5-10m. However, I was mainly considering my experience rounding a corner with a PPSH surprising an MG34 trying to get into position at ranges <5m and instant hipfire being the only way to react. Neither the PPSH or the MG34 are particularly accurate with hipfire on rounding a corner, but the chance of the MG34 landing a devastating hit first I think is higher.

QUOTE=PhoenixDragon;1170970]The weapon that lands the rounds on-target first is going to be the one most likely to win, and the SMGs have the advantage there.[/QUOTE]

I don't disagree. However, I think that currently at very close ranges the MG34 suffers no penalty vs an SMG that delay them getting a shot off on target. I just think that in reality, the SMG is going to be much quicker on the draw in a surprise situation than someone hefting an MG and that this is not well replicated in RO2 considering the other very high realism standards.

 

[Nikita]

In the iron-sighted SMG versus LMG discussion, I'd argue that since a LMG user is going to be unloading on full auto, the suppression would quite possibly throw the submachine gunner's aim completely off.

But there is no way the old RO1 method of right clicking to raise the weapon should be brought back, that was simply terribly unrealistic and unnecessarily clunky. That's simply not how LMGs are used for hipfiring, they are not that terrible nor heavy that keeping the weapon aimed foward by the hip is so tiring, or such a hindrance on movement, It just wasn't. So don't even think about it.

That's simply not how LMGs are used for hipfiring? What, you don't need to physically lift up a light machine gun to hipfire it?

Do me a favor. Get up, find a heavy textbook, preferably a math or science one, and hold it up in your left hand in front of you. Keep your arm fully extended. Pretend it's the bipod of an MG-34, and try and swing it left and right several times. Let me know how long you can keep that up for.

There is just no basis for an argument on realism grounds that the LMG was always held in a hipfire-ready position. It's an unnatural position, it DOES take effort to maintain for more than a minute, and you sure as hell aren't going to be walking around all day with the weapon held like that.

Now, go out to the gym, pick up a 25-pound dumbbell, and try and jog around with it in your right hand while holding up the textbook or a five-pound weight in your left. Keep your right arm bent, because if you straighten it, the barrel would be pointed at an upwards angle. Let me know how that feels.

And no, the sling won't help with this, because it's too short--you have to push the weapon forward from the sling's natural resting position and flip the weapon upright (sling loops are on the botton of the weapon), meaning that the length of the sling fixed to the barrel is carrying virtually none of the barrel's weight. In fact, in the two examples I've seen of hipfiring actually being used in 'combat', the sling isn't even being used:

At 0:44:
The Wehrmacht - Combat Footage - YouTube

and

MG-34 Hip Shooting - YouTube

Just LOOK at these videos. They're not jogging anywhere with the weapon held like that. The guy in the second video is also coming dangerously close to blowing his buddy's head clean off.

Finally, I can guarantee that hipfiring an MG-34 was a method of last resort in Stalingrad fighting. Why? Because the Wehrmacht had ceased using the 50-round drum for the MG-34 in the infantry role by 1942. Instead of the 50-round drum, machine gunners carried mainly the loose 50-round belt. Given the MG-34's finicky propensity for failing to feed at times, there's no way you'd trust that the belt of ammunition hanging from the weapon or draped haphazardly across your left arm would feed properly in hipfire with an enemy just meters away.

Never mind the fact that your NCO would chew you out IRL for trying to participate in room-clearing with your valuable weapon. Never mind the voluminous infantry doctrine stating that the MG34 is to be positioned and used to cover open ground, and that the entire infantry squad must support and protect the machine gun. Never mind the fact that IRL you'd be traveling with two ammo handlers and an MG team leader, who would be leading the way with his MP40.

The fact remains that holding the MG34 in hipfire mode is impractical, cumbersome, and tiring, and only used as a last resort or when enemy resistance was so pitiful that friendly troops could literally stand in the open to return fire.

Iron-sights-to-hipfire is the way to go. It's realistic, and it reflects the fact that no sane machine gunner would carry their LMG ready-to-go at all times.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

Finally, I can guarantee that hipfiring an MG-34 was a method of last resort in Stalingrad fighting. Why? Because the Wehrmacht had ceased using the 50-round drum for the MG-34 in the infantry role by 1942. Instead of the 50-round drum, machine gunners carried mainly the loose 50-round belt. Given the MG-34's finicky propensity for failing to feed at times, there's no way you'd trust that the belt of ammunition hanging from the weapon or draped haphazardly across your left arm would feed properly in hipfire with an enemy just meters away.

Hey, very good points. I hadn't thought of that.

 

[danh]

Shouldn't their hand burn off? Maybe they should drop the gun after so many rounds. The chance of dropping goes higher the longer you shoot.

 

[Oldih]

But there is no way the old RO1 method of right clicking to raise the weapon should be brought back, that was simply terribly unrealistic and unnecessarily clunky. That's simply not how LMGs are used for hipfiring, they are not that terrible nor heavy that keeping the weapon aimed foward by the hip is so tiring, or such a hindrance on movement, It just wasn't. So don't even think about it.

Last time I checked firearms do have something called