MG ramboing

[CocaineInMyBrain]

If anyone here has played Metro 2033, there is a level where you find a small child who survived being massacred by mutants. You then proceed to carry him on your back with you in an effort to save him, during that entire section of the game your movement was sluggish (felt like you had weight on you) and you couldn't sprint or jump very well. I think MG hipfiring should resemble this more than anything.

http://youtu.be/IPPlaGrAits video example

The person in the video clearly didn't enjoy it, but I still think it could fit very well within the context of RO2

 

[Sensemann]

The MGs HAVE TO BE ALTERED.

There was a situation where I played as Russian machinegunner (L 50, enemy loadout MG 34 with belt) and we ran out of reinforcements while the Germans still had 20 reinfs left. I am in the Comissar's house, not advancing anymore, because I knew the Germans were coming towards me now (over 5 minutes left).

So I am staying halfway on the stairs and I hear footsteps from downstairs. I move right, burst, tango down. Silence. I hear footsteps again, this time from my left, so he must come from upstairs. He stands with the back towards me. Single shooting from the hip. Tango down. I hear voices, from downstairs again, it's 3 German rifleman, all about 30 meters away, I go full fire and kaching, 3 more down. It continued for quite some time, people cheering me "Go Sensemann" "You can do it"...
Eventually I was killed and voice chat was going like crazy. People said I used an aimbot, while others said I did well. One of my friends on the Axis team said that I reduced the Germans to 3 survivers in the end. You can imagine now how many must've killed with hipfiring.

It is too easy as it is at the moment. Usually it's enough to make a single shot and see where the bullet ends up. After that, you can go quick single fire or even short bursts and you can hipfire very accurately up to 50-60 meters. That doesn't sound right to me.

Especially I am wondering about: how on earth would someone with a belt-fed MG be able to hipfire accurately?

 

[Hayduke]

Some serious MG hating going on.....think there are a few drama queens overstating hip-firing ramboing....the ONLY map this is usually a factor on is apartments and maybe the grain elevator due to the confined spacing. Anyone who says it consistently beats out smg's is seriously smoking crack and you need to put the pipe down.

 

[TraXx]

Some serious MG hating going on.....think there are a few drama queens overstating hip-firing ramboing....the ONLY map this is usually a factor on is apartments and maybe the grain elevator due to the confined spacing. Anyone who says it consistently beats out smg's is seriously smoking crack and you need to put the pipe down.

This thread would say that you're wrong.

To each their own.

 

[Nikita]

Some serious MG hating going on.....think there are a few drama queens overstating hip-firing ramboing....the ONLY map this is usually a factor on is apartments and maybe the grain elevator due to the confined spacing. Anyone who says it consistently beats out smg's is seriously smoking crack and you need to put the pipe down.

Oh, don't get us wrong--MG rambo-ing is not 'game-breakingly OP'. In fact, players who rely on rambo-style exclusively are generally quite easy to put down.

It's just the whole realism aspect that's annoying.

If you could push a button and chuck your rifle end-over-end two hundred meters in a random direction, it wouldn't be OP in the least. It would, however, be immersion-breaking.

 

[Gudenrath]

Expoilt?

if i play as MG gunner, and im in a house.. I hear some enemy sneak up the stairs beneath me, ofc I turn and point the MG on the door and gun him down.
If there is more, I walk down and blast them away through thin walls and mop them up.

That is not the issue here. The issue is that they can do that without being aware of the enemy until in a fraction of a second and still outdraw them, faster than the PPSH and the MP40. You are describing a scenario where the machinegunner is aware of the enemy beforehand, I am not.

As I stated in my OP hipfiring should be in the game, but like it was in RO1, where the scenario you describe would still be perfectly viable.

 

[Mazryonh]

Especially I am wondering about: how on earth would someone with a belt-fed MG be able to hipfire accurately?

Well, you can check out the following real life vid of someone firing an MG42, the bigger, badder, 1200-rounds-per-minute cousin of the MG34, while standing.

http://youtu.be/SsvMHrWOcEw[url]http://youtu.be/SsvMHrWOcEw[/URL]

If you check where the muzzle of the MG42 is going in that video, it's clear the user isn't being very accurate, but he doesn't need to be very accurate in a confined space, and the ability to put down 1200 rounds a minute from a 250-round belt (which translates to 12.5 seconds of firing time) means you can just let the spray work for you so as long as the muzzle is pointed in the general direction, essentially working like an ersatz automatic shotgun.

Other games like Team Fortress 2 that have classes which have to "rambo" automatic weaponry usually severely decrease the aim sensitivity of the user and slow him down while firing. That could work, but it wouldn't do much to ameliorate a "rambo" MG's extreme short-range lethality. The original Day of Defeat which allowed for MGs to be hipfired often has servers now that makes your aim and vision go crazy whenever you fire, but that's too far in making hipfired MGs ineffective.

Regardless, I'd rather hipfired MGs have a realistic amount of recoil, but with a realistically large "firing cone" to reflect that you can't in any way use the sights while hipfiring an MG. And besides, something like that paired with a movement penalty while firing (and lasting until shortly afterwards) would make grenades the easiest counter. Given that such a "rambo" MGer isn't running as fast as the others in his squad, it'll be unlikely that he's going to outrun the blast radius of a well-thrown grenade.

 

[kalle]

Well, you can check out the following real life vid of someone firing an MG42, the bigger, badder, 1200-rounds-per-minute cousin of the MG34, while standing.

http://youtu.be/SsvMHrWOcEw[url]http://youtu.be/SsvMHrWOcEw[/URL]

But he's not running around, rounding corners, walking over rubble or stairs etc. while firing. Rather you see on his stance that if he would try that, he'd lose his balance pretty fast.

 

[Nikita]

GENTLEMEN.

the point is not that an MG cannot physically be hipfired. It can.

The point is not that LMGs are OP when hipfired. They aren't.

The point is that like any real-world weapon, you have to hold it a certain way and point it in a certain direction to use it. And since RO2 is at least nominally based in realism, this should be reflected.

The LMGs in RO2 are automatically held in hipfire mode, despite their hefty real-world weight and the awkward grip necessitated to maintain the weapon in a hipfiring stance.

Essentially, having the LMGs in an always-ready stance is like being able to jog around with a rifle permanantly held up in iron sights for you. Is it physically possible? Yes. Why doesn't the game let you run around with a rifle in iron sights? Because nobody on the battlefield would ever do such a thing given the effort involved, and because a soldier can simply raise and lower the rifle at his own convenience when it is necessary. For a machine gun, this is even more the case.

It should simply be the same way with LMGs.

 

[Cwivey]

I would rather have weapon Inertia than Click-to-aim. Imagine when you go to hip-fire, but end up deploying your weapon on the wall to your left. Now with RO2's vastly better deployment system, I can see that occurring a lot. I don't want to have to stand in the middle of the corridor / room, pointing away from anything my MG may latch onto before I am allowed to hip-fire.

 

[CocaineInMyBrain]

I would rather have weapon Inertia than Click-to-aim. Imagine when you go to hip-fire, but end up deploying your weapon on the wall to your left. Now with RO2's vastly better deployment system, I can see that occurring a lot. I don't want to have to stand in the middle of the corridor / room, pointing away from anything my MG may latch onto before I am allowed to hip-fire.

See my suggestion above, I think its a perfectly valid way of implementing inertia for MGs, and possibly inertia in general.

 

[Nikita]

I would rather have weapon Inertia than Click-to-aim. Imagine when you go to hip-fire, but end up deploying your weapon on the wall to your left. Now with RO2's vastly better deployment system, I can see that occurring a lot. I don't want to have to stand in the middle of the corridor / room, pointing away from anything my MG may latch onto before I am allowed to hip-fire.

Easy solution. LEFT CLICK to enter hipfire mode. IRON SIGHTS to exit. Sprinting, going prone, and switching weapons will also exit.

If anyone here has played Metro 2033, there is a level where you find a small child who survived being massacred by mutants. You then proceed to carry him on your back with you in an effort to save him, during that entire section of the game your movement was sluggish (felt like you had weight on you) and you couldn't sprint or jump very well. I think MG hipfiring should resemble this more than anything.

http://youtu.be/IPPlaGrAits video example

The person in the video clearly didn't enjoy it, but I still think it could fit very well within the context of RO2

That's one of the better ways of doing an escort mission that I've ever seen... no need to deal with godawful NPC AI. Metro 2033 always looked like an interesting game--I just hate getting the pants scared off of me by sudden mutant attacks, so I'll probably never pick it up.

As far as RO2 goes, I could see some potential problems if you're trying to deploy if this is "on" all the time.

EDIT: and my god that commentator is awful

 

[Mekhazzio]

Chances are, if you got caught off guard IRL while transitioning between positions as a machine gunner, you'd be dead. Why? Because you probably weren't expecting to encounter the enemy, and consequently got killed as you tried to heft your weapon into a firing stance.

That's the problem, though. A soldier in RO2 can expect to be within 100 meters of the enemy very nearly 100% of the time. It makes no sense to use march-carry as the default state because there is no scenario in the game where anyone would ever do that, not to mention that you don't really care if your character is comfortable, anyway.

This touches on the root problem with the MGs not being as dominant as they really were, too. You take a weapon with an effective range of a kilometer and stick it in an environment where you can barely even see a person standing in an open field at 250 meters and it's guaranteed to not be as useful.

That's one of the better ways of doing an escort mission that I've ever seen... no need to deal with godawful NPC AI. Metro 2033 always looked like an interesting game--I just hate getting the pants scared off of me by sudden mutant attacks, so I'll probably never pick it up.

The best part of Metro 2033 for an RO2 player is hearing most of the same voice actors

 

[CocaineInMyBrain]

That's one of the better ways of doing an escort mission that I've ever seen... no need to deal with godawful NPC AI. Metro 2033 always looked like an interesting game--I just hate getting the pants scared off of me by sudden mutant attacks, so I'll probably never pick it up.

As far as RO2 goes, I could see some potential problems if you're trying to deploy if this is "on" all the time.

EDIT: and my god that commentator is awful

Of course if it were to be implemented it would have to be tweaked extensively, and would likely only apply to MGs and AT rifles.
And yes horror games are not everyone 's cup of tea, I know I was scared out of my mind for many of the missions in Metro 2033, thankfully it was a pretty short game

And although the commentator was annoying, he does point out and nicely sum up the effects of the inertia system - which otherwise rather difficult to notice by just looking at gameplay footage

 

[Sulman]

That's the problem, though. A soldier in RO2 can expect to be within 100 meters of the enemy very nearly 100% of the time. It makes no sense to use march-carry as the default state because there is no scenario in the game where anyone would ever do that, not to mention that you don't really care if your character is comfortable, anyway.

This touches on the root problem with the MGs not being as dominant as they really were, too. You take a weapon with an effective range of a kilometer and stick it in an environment where you can barely even see a person standing in an open field at 250 meters and it's guaranteed to not be as useful.

The best part of Metro 2033 for an RO2 player is hearing most of the same voice actors

No complaints from RO1, I notice.

 

[Mazryonh]

Easy solution. LEFT CLICK to enter hipfire mode. IRON SIGHTS to exit. Sprinting, going prone, and switching weapons will also exit.

That could work, and sounds like something that TWI could put into an "closed beta" server where potential patch ideas get put through their paces by players who are good and reliably give constructive criticism. Are you listening, TWI?

The best part of Metro 2033 for an RO2 player is hearing most of the same voice actors

This is nothing new; those same voice actors appeared in the very first STALKER game, Shadow of Chernobyl. I have no idea why those same guys keep getting hired--they surely can't be the only men around who can speak fluent Russian and English (my guess is that because they can do both the Russian and English voice tracks, developers get double the value with the same set of actors). They do a good job, but I'd like to hear more variety.

I'm still pissed that STALKER 2 got cancelled though. And not because the games weren't selling well!

 

[Kleist]

My Opinion:

Left mouse only: a lot of spray (only effective in very close combat),
running speed (slow down) like it is in classic mode right now

Right mouse + Left mouse: right mouse = Press the MG close to your hip, and bring it into position => slow movement (like it was in RO:Ost), a little bit less spray than without the right mouse klick. Maybe like it is in classic mode right now.

Than I

 

[Nikita]

That's the problem, though. A soldier in RO2 can expect to be within 100 meters of the enemy very nearly 100% of the time. It makes no sense to use march-carry as the default state because there is no scenario in the game where anyone would ever do that, not to mention that you don't really care if your character is comfortable, anyway.

This touches on the root problem with the MGs not being as dominant as they really were, too. You take a weapon with an effective range of a kilometer and stick it in an environment where you can barely even see a person standing in an open field at 250 meters and it's guaranteed to not be as useful.

Just because you know the enemy is near doesn't always mean you think you're in imminent danger. I don't think it's appropriate to decide that, because we are assuming that the player is always in danger, they shouldn't have to make their own decision about how to carry the weapon. It's like the scope/iron sights view on the sniper rifle. If they decide that they're going to use a precision weapon intended to excel at 200 yards or more in a knife fight, they're going to have to change views beforehand. Except that in the case of LMGs, this decision will be waay more convenient to make, since you don't have to reach all the way for that "6"key...

On a map like Apartments, sure, a machine gunner would probably be more incentivized to hold the weapon at their hip a larger proportion of the time... but firstly, the maps are changing. Coldsteel, Univermag, Rakowice, Gumrak Station, Bridges of Druzhina, Winterwald, Barashka, Mamayev Kurgan...

Why would you not want to hold the thing in out in front of you all the time? Well, if you're taking advantage of the strap, then it's low enough to interfere with your hip and leg movement. If you're cradling it in your arms, then you're holding the whole weight of the weapon. The length of the weapon and the arms of the bipod make it difficult to squeeze through that hole in the wall. And if a 250-round belt is hanging out of the left side of the thing, then you've got a whole new set of problems. It's cumbersome and really only worth it if your life is in imminent danger and you can't rely on allies for support.

I mean, what will this change really do? Please disregard Apartments. In terms of level design, its one of the worst possible maps to try and play machine-gunner by actually deploying the weapon.

To the general audience, look on the bright side. If these changes are implemented, it just means it takes more skill to use a machine gun in close quarters than it does now. It adds challenge to the game! Now, when you see a machine gunner really laying it down in close quarters, taking up a stance atop a stairwell, blasting two hostiles into pieces, sprinting to a hallway, lifting the weapon and spraying down three more enemies, you respect their mastery of the game mechanics. It's something you learn to use and get good at, like anything else. It's like good Starcraft micro. I don't see why that's a bad thing.

EDIT: After seeing the below post... for the last time, it's not OP. It's just unrealistic.

And for the benefit of those who never played RO1, this is what we're talking about. See 3:40. It takes one second to deploy for hipfire. Is it really THAT bad?

Red Orchestra German Weapons - YouTube

 

[luke688]

Its fine as it is IMO it got nerfed last patch and that was enough for me. i play mainly assualt and MG gunner myself and i can safely say i would pick a PPSH over an MG in close range every time. Another point is that whenever i play apartments the MG class is always the last one left if they were as OP as people are moaning about that wouldnt be the case.

 

[Sulman]

Its fine as it is IMO it got nerfed last patch and that was enough for me. i play mainly assualt and MG gunner myself and i can safely say i would pick a PPSH over an MG in close range every time. Another point is that whenever i play apartments the MG class is always the last one left if they were as OP as people are moaning about that wouldnt be the case.

You may not, but plenty do. I see it most nights on the busy servers. MG's building and room clearing, particularly.