MG ramboing
- Thread starter Gudenrath
- Start date
There's a sleeve around the barrel (which will get plenty hot) but gloves & holding a bipod leg should negate that. Still, I think Nikita's points are all very true.
I hate to bang on about RO1, but in that, machine guns were very dangerous, and I have no memory of players saying "I wish I could hip fire this a little better."
Upvote
0
Not sure if serious ...
Moving around with an MG is one thing, but running around with it while FIRING without properly bracing it (which can't be done while running around like a crazy person) is madness.
Upvote
0
I never mentioned firing. RO2 already dealt with the firing part, but some people would still want to see the RO1 method of having to right click so the LMG would get raised, so it could be fired. And truth is, there is no reason why it would not be raised, held by the hip, at all times, like it already is on RO2.
Upvote
0
Oh, OK.
At 2:40
English BREN gun Vs american B.A.R - YouTube
M240 Bravo - YouTube
Fine, let's say the gun is too heavy, too complicated to hold, the sling doesn't help at all, and can't be held pointing forward for extended durations of time. Which I don't quite agree with...
So next we press right click, point and hold the gun forward ready to fire, and now all of the sudden we can hold it indefinitely, such as in RO1!? What changed all of the sudden, laws of physics? Or maybe your character's legs got much heavier?
Why is jogging while holding a machine gun ready to be hipfired something so extraordinary? As long as you are not shooting, should be fine.
Again, a picture of a soldier actually doing so, making proper use of his sling, in a combat situation.
http://www.bergflak.com/images/mg34advance.jpg
I went ahead and picked up a ladder weighting 18 pounds, and held it like it was an MG. The left extended arm is the only real trouble after some time. But tying it up to me with something to make up for a sling turns it's weight to nothing really. All the weight transmits to the body, your stair/machinegun is officially in outer space. All strength you need to position it, aim it, etc is minimal. You can let go your hands and it ain't going no where, such as in the videos.
Now that don't make much sense. A sling is like seatbelts, you adjust its length. A sling is very much part of the weapon, and you can make all sorts of tricks with it, be it an M1 garand, a sniper rifle of sorts, and machineguns. And they actually taught most of the tricks, how to set your sling to your size, how to set it up for combat, how to get in, etc.
I remember that airsoft M60E2 I played with up a bit, wasn't too heavy but close to the real deal. Holding it by the hip was a chore, and letting it go from straight aiming was a much more comfortable position. In this case, no sling no notin. Still, I could hold it for a quite a bit of time before I got all sweaty. Shouldering was the only real trouble, 15, 20 seconds max. And less everytime that I tried shouldering it again.
Upvote
0
None of which changes the hard fact that RO2's mobility & ease with the weapon is nonsensical; look at the video; those people look awkward as hell; it is a visible effort to heft it around.
Please don't talk about airsoft like it has the slightest relevance to any of this.
Please don't talk about airsoft like it has the slightest relevance to any of this.
Upvote
0
What video? Keep in mind.. once we start shooting our LMGs in game, we don't about just as good in the video of Gunny and the Bren.
HAHAhahahahahah. So wrong it hurts!
Why now? Because a 16 pound hunk of metal shaped like a perfect gun isn't enough of a good example!? YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING ME!
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Running around a corner face-to-face with someone, it's all a throw of the dice, anyway. Even a bolt-action rifle has roughly even odds at that range, especially if you know to not automatically bolt after the first shot and go for a follow-up bayonet stab. Running around blind corners where you can run into an enemy at point-blank range is pretty suicidal.
Probably, yes. But again, people are saying the MG is out-drawing the SMG, and that's simply not true.
Well, there is the fact that 16 pounds happens to be about half the weight of a real, loaded M240 (Around 30lbs).
Besides, it's pretty silly to use airsoft videos where we have videos of the real thing:
Firing the M240B standing - YouTube
shoulder firing the 240B - YouTube
Oh, wait. Both of those are shoulder-firing, even. Here, have some hip-firing.
Shooting M240 7.62mm machine gun from the hip - YouTube
There are all sorts of ways to solve the "hip firing problem." The most realistic would be to make the loss of the MG itself more significant, by both giving us longer combat ranges (Remove the atmospheric effects that make people past 200m disappear, possibly more zoom, and slightly reduced MG recoil when deployed), and making it less desirable to risk losing the MG (Longer respawn periods and/or run-back distances, combined with the MG's power making giving the enemy an extra MG more of a bad thing). Those are most important, as they make it less desirable to use the MGs that way. Then there are performance tweaks, like making the MGs have even worse recoil when fired on the move (Bad if fired while walking, absolutely horrible if fired while jogging).
As for requiring an alternate stance to fire on the move, it's pretty silly when it's unlike any other weapon in the game. If it were applied to all weapons, then it would make sense, but we'd need an actual reason to switch--either all weapons make you slower when ready for hip-firing (Simpler, but less realistic), or because it makes your arms tired and impacts your shooting (More realistic, but requires more work; they'd have to make a meaningful arm-fatigue system, unlike the rather poor and easily-exploited method they had in RO:O).
Upvote
0
I believe it might have been a small misunderstanding between running with MG on the hip - which of course is fine in general, and hipfiring while running (or anything faster than average walking pace) which was most likely due choice of wording.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
As i said before....unless your a big guy that can take the weight of a full LMG belt fed weapon and even then hip firing it,there should be at least more recoil....the 8mm packs a punch,so does the 762R.hip firing is possible, it can be done...i think they should just limit it to oh crap situations....the 240 is probably lighter than an actual loaded mg34 or maybe the same...with say 2 150 round belts...that's what probably approaching 40-50 pounds.Thats alot of weight....hell i have an ak and when bump fired(from the hip) it can be uncontrollable somewhat...and i am a pretty big guy...if you want to experience the actual weight and recoil of an LMG like the 240b/g(golf weighs less,no heat guards) try the arma 2 ACE mod....may change your opinion....and the 8mm round has a little bit more muzzle flip than the .308/7.62 NATO round.
Upvote
0
There! The argument for reintroducing the right click to go to shooting stance holds no water!
You've seen it all here in a few posts folks.
Back from where we stopped: Making the MG take slightly more to raise when coming out from a sprint, as to represent it's significant extra weight should fix the ''outdrawing''. As in, now both SMG or rifle will have an advantage on that regard against the LMGers, instead of all having the same capacity.
About the 150 Belt VS 50 Drum Belt, I think my option would be the strongest: Make each bullet add a mobility penalty dynamically to the MG gunner, so that if he has 150 rounds in his belt, he is a fatty, and when he has used most of those round and now has 50, he is equally mobile to the other guy who went with the drum.
Turning your character, with any weapon in RO2, has no speed limits. Could see some improvement there.
You've seen it all here in a few posts folks.
Back from where we stopped: Making the MG take slightly more to raise when coming out from a sprint, as to represent it's significant extra weight should fix the ''outdrawing''. As in, now both SMG or rifle will have an advantage on that regard against the LMGers, instead of all having the same capacity.
About the 150 Belt VS 50 Drum Belt, I think my option would be the strongest: Make each bullet add a mobility penalty dynamically to the MG gunner, so that if he has 150 rounds in his belt, he is a fatty, and when he has used most of those round and now has 50, he is equally mobile to the other guy who went with the drum.
Turning your character, with any weapon in RO2, has no speed limits. Could see some improvement there.
Upvote
0
Re: Sarkis,
No, the MG-34 sling is NOT adjustable like a seatbelt. Please do some research next time. It's at a fixed length, and also a rather SHORT length since it's designed to keep the MG-34 comfortably on your back on the march. It's NOT designed for standing hipfire--it is too short, propaganda photo notwithstanding.
No, I'm afraid making the LMG more valuable/costly in no way affects the willingness of a machine-gunner to hipfire/not hipfire in a given close-quarters situation. Sure, a machine gunner might not rush blindly ahead into battle, pursuing hipfire as a default strategy, if you implemented, say, limited respawns for him. However, even if you only give a machine gunner a single life, if he gets caught with his pants down around his ankles, he's going to spray and pray from the hip until the fat lady sings.
These sorts of encounter firefights are exactly what we're trying to address. When the machine gunner's life is at stake, they will do anything they can to stay alive, and they will hipfire, hipfire, hipfire PRECISELY because they wish to stay alive and hold on to a valuable weapon. Making the machine gun a one-per-round weapon does nothing to stop a surprised machine gunner from letting go of the sprint button, whipping up an MG-34, and mowing down any threat. The hipfire problem is in no way solved.
The Bren, the BAR, the M249, the M60, the M240B, the RPK... YES, you can hipfire these weapons comfortably. Why? They all have handguards and carry handles, meaning that you don't have to grip them by the bipod to avoid scalding a hand on the barrel. Their weight is far more economically balanced. And even then, in every video that has been posted so far, the soldiers are STATIONARY and VISIBLY RESISTING the recoil... as they fire in BURSTS from a CONTROLLED STANCE. The Bren, BAR, and RPK use detachable magazines, which negate the greatest risk of stoppages, and they also weigh significantly less than true light machine guns.
Okay, so why should we treat the light machine guns differently?
Because they're in a totally different class of their own. In terms of weapons handling, there's the AT rifle on one side, there's the LMGs, and then the next heaviest weapon in-game is the MKB-42 at a little more than ten pounds--less than half the weight of an LMG.
If we're treating the PTRS differently in terms of weapon handling by prohibiting hipfire altogether, then it makes sense that hipfiring should be in some way restricted on the LMGs.
Again, let me re-iterate. The reason why LMGs should be required to hit a key to enter hipfiring stance is because in combat, hipfiring is exactly that--an ALTERNATE, UNCONVENTIONAL stance. It's to reflect the fact that you have to PREPARE to hipfire. With a rifle, you just point and fire. With an LMG, you have to whip it off your shoulder, grab an arm of the bipod or collapse the bipod... It is NOT the usual way in which a machine gunner carries his weapon, and that is why it should be different.
EDIT: I just realized this, but... chances were, when the MG-34 was being moved between positions in Stalingrad, it wouldn't even be loaded. You'd slap a belt in only once you reached the firing position. Even if you did load a belt into the weapon, you'd often drape the belt around the reciever when carrying the weapon--hardly conducive to proper feeding if you wanted to hipfire it on the spur of the moment. Photos and newsreel footage show this quite clearly.
No, the MG-34 sling is NOT adjustable like a seatbelt. Please do some research next time. It's at a fixed length, and also a rather SHORT length since it's designed to keep the MG-34 comfortably on your back on the march. It's NOT designed for standing hipfire--it is too short, propaganda photo notwithstanding.
No, I'm afraid making the LMG more valuable/costly in no way affects the willingness of a machine-gunner to hipfire/not hipfire in a given close-quarters situation. Sure, a machine gunner might not rush blindly ahead into battle, pursuing hipfire as a default strategy, if you implemented, say, limited respawns for him. However, even if you only give a machine gunner a single life, if he gets caught with his pants down around his ankles, he's going to spray and pray from the hip until the fat lady sings.
These sorts of encounter firefights are exactly what we're trying to address. When the machine gunner's life is at stake, they will do anything they can to stay alive, and they will hipfire, hipfire, hipfire PRECISELY because they wish to stay alive and hold on to a valuable weapon. Making the machine gun a one-per-round weapon does nothing to stop a surprised machine gunner from letting go of the sprint button, whipping up an MG-34, and mowing down any threat. The hipfire problem is in no way solved.
The Bren, the BAR, the M249, the M60, the M240B, the RPK... YES, you can hipfire these weapons comfortably. Why? They all have handguards and carry handles, meaning that you don't have to grip them by the bipod to avoid scalding a hand on the barrel. Their weight is far more economically balanced. And even then, in every video that has been posted so far, the soldiers are STATIONARY and VISIBLY RESISTING the recoil... as they fire in BURSTS from a CONTROLLED STANCE. The Bren, BAR, and RPK use detachable magazines, which negate the greatest risk of stoppages, and they also weigh significantly less than true light machine guns.
Okay, so why should we treat the light machine guns differently?
Because they're in a totally different class of their own. In terms of weapons handling, there's the AT rifle on one side, there's the LMGs, and then the next heaviest weapon in-game is the MKB-42 at a little more than ten pounds--less than half the weight of an LMG.
If we're treating the PTRS differently in terms of weapon handling by prohibiting hipfire altogether, then it makes sense that hipfiring should be in some way restricted on the LMGs.
Again, let me re-iterate. The reason why LMGs should be required to hit a key to enter hipfiring stance is because in combat, hipfiring is exactly that--an ALTERNATE, UNCONVENTIONAL stance. It's to reflect the fact that you have to PREPARE to hipfire. With a rifle, you just point and fire. With an LMG, you have to whip it off your shoulder, grab an arm of the bipod or collapse the bipod... It is NOT the usual way in which a machine gunner carries his weapon, and that is why it should be different.
EDIT: I just realized this, but... chances were, when the MG-34 was being moved between positions in Stalingrad, it wouldn't even be loaded. You'd slap a belt in only once you reached the firing position. Even if you did load a belt into the weapon, you'd often drape the belt around the reciever when carrying the weapon--hardly conducive to proper feeding if you wanted to hipfire it on the spur of the moment. Photos and newsreel footage show this quite clearly.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
If there is a god, he must make sure Nikita has a good life. This guy makes sense and is very reasonable.
LOL, still in xmas mood. haha
Upvote
0
And if you'd go back and read my post, you'd see that it's not supposed to. What it's supposed to do is make it less desirable to rush into close-combat with a LMG, which forms the largest complaint about MG hipfiring.
The usefulness of it was addressed by the performance tweaks I mentioned. So long as you're carrying the weapon by the grip, which appears to be common, there shouldn't be anything actually stopping you from firing. It shouldn't be discouraged because it's not possible (It is), but because it's a bad idea (It is!). In the limited scope of weapon handling we have now, that means stuff like excessive recoil. If we had a more complex system, we could introduce more things, such as potentially losing footing (Or even jams; the potential to misfire due to bad weapon handling, something the player has control over, is certainly one of the cases where weapon malfunctions would actually be good).
The argument that they're not normally carried already set and readied to hip-fire all the time breaks down when the same is true of all weapons (Especially for the Germans, who don't even hold their rifles by their standard firing grip!). Realistically they'd have different speeds going from moving to firing, something that RO2 could use, but the behavior isn't terribly different. Running with a rifle or SMG held ready-to-fire at the hip isn't going to be notably harder or slower than running with a MG-34 at your hip, held by the bipod. The difference doesn't come into being until you fire them. Then, the SMG fires fairly easy, the rifle is likely inaccurate and kicks wildly, and the MG is likely to go all over the place, possibly even landing you on the ground.
Just as a note, the first video I posted has hardly any pause between long bursts, and the second video shows him firing almost an entire belt without pause.
The PTRS has ~8 times the muzzle energy of the MG-34, or about twice the muzzle energy of a .50 BMG rifle. That said, when you can find people emptying 10 rounds from a .50 BMG rifle from standing shoulder-fire in 2 seconds, hip-firing a PTRS is probably not that unreasonable (Although you might not be standing afterward if your stance isn't stable). Kind of a waste, too, since you'd almost never hit anything.
This is as true for LMGs as it is for all weapons.
That's the point of the 50-round assault drum that we start with in the game, to hold the belt ready for firing while on the move.
Upvote
0
Re: Sarkis,
No, the MG-34 sling is NOT adjustable like a seatbelt. Please do some research next time. It's at a fixed length, and also a rather SHORT length since it's designed to keep the MG-34 comfortably on your back on the march. It's NOT designed for standing hipfire--it is too short, propaganda photo notwithstanding.
True, the sling is not adjustable.. Disregarding the photo where the soldier uses the sling is a little lame thought. In any case, there is no need to reintroduce RO1's mechanic.
http://www.bergflak.com/images/mg34advance.jpg
Call it propaganda, call whatever you want. The guy is doing it.
Well, if you had gloves you could very well, and heroes in RO2 have, but let's say you don't. And you have to hold by the bipod like on this video:
MG-42 technical difficulties using assault fire. - YouTube
Oh wait! That guy is using a sling in an unconventional way, helping him hold his weapon ever ready to hipfire!
AGAIN... If we were to introduce RO1's method because it is an unconventional way to hold it, emergency only, when practically all we do in game is a constant emergency. We'd still able to hold the weapon ready to hipfire at all times, which obviously means this is NOT about being able to do that or not, but rather, making the character move even slower while doing so, when not firing. Which I don't agree with, and would be unrealistic. TWI increased the incumbrance level for the machinegunners and engineers IIRC, so that their extra gear would not make them slower. They could bring that back.
Which means that using RO1's method doesn't solve your gripe at all. It would simply be a means of hindering machinegunners more, not on the basis of the possibility of it being done, which it can be, with the sling or not.
And we can accomplish that, by introducing other realistic hindrances, such as encumbrance related to remaining ammo in the belt, difficulty to turn on a dime, making turning more sluggish, and making the weapon raise coming from a sprint take longer for the MGs.
And here shoudering
MG3 live fire exercise - YouTube
And here he is enjoying himself
MG-34 Madness Standing Fire - YouTube
And here a huge belt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-1tHSWgT41c
Upvote
0
Huh? I get that you dislike that option for some reason, but you have done no such thing. You have provided us with videos of people standing still and firing airsoft guns, but that does not an argument make.
Upvote
0
The reason I dislike the option is because it makes no sense!
At one moment the guy can't keep his weapon pointed forward indefinitely, next you right click and all of the sudden he can!?
''Videos of people firing airsoft guns'' What are you people smoking!?
Well, my evidence is that I can hold a weapon close to the weight of a machinegun by my hip, pointing forward for more time than the average lifetime of a player in RO2. With no sling or anything, which should compensate for the fact that I am no soldier, no machine gunner, and that an MG34 weights a lot more, especially counting the ammo.
Which leads to the conclusions, again, no cherry picking, but the conclusion that this idea of bringing back RO1's system has nothing to do with being humanly possible to hold your weapon aimed by the hip indefinitely while idle. And if we were to suddenly introduce this into the game, we'd have to do it with all weapons, not only LMGs. Because even though lighter, other weapons are not devoid of mass, and hence weight.
Upvote
0
You haven't provided any evidence for this claim at all. And your proposal is also quite ridiculous, as that is not how any soldier in WWII would ever run around carrying his MG, even if he had had the strength to do so for 5 minutes (which he wouldn't, and of course this wasn't even the subject of this thread to begin with).
And this is a game, not a democracy where equal rights for all guns is mandatory, there is such a phenomenon as gameplay, and if instant MG hipshooting is a gameplay problem then it requires extraordinary measures to fix, and then the (excellently working) RO1 solution would be an obviois choice for implementation.
Upvote
0