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Zoom ?
- Thread starter Narego
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I can't understand why anyone would want to screw up their eye sight by pixel hunting or even find it enjoyable to do so. For one thing, it's not FUN at all. It's probably the reason I got a bad case of buyer's remorse after buying RO back in 2005. And it's probably one thing that casual, sim, realism gamers can pretty much all agree on that needs to be standard on any FPS title.
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Replace pixel by blob and you'll experience this in real life. 
And I much prefer pixel hunting than ArmA 2 style zooming in/out with variable levels of zoom. It just feels clunky, unnatural, and makes aiming take a longer time. There are also technical issues. Sometimes when playing ArmA 2 (or replace with a game of your choice) I am being shot at by someone I can't see. They are completely invisible... until I zoom in. Very annoying when sometimes other players can see you but you can't because you are not zoomed in enough.
But zoom will be in game anyways. The thread should be locked since I doubt TWI is going to change it. No use discussing again/further.
And I much prefer pixel hunting than ArmA 2 style zooming in/out with variable levels of zoom. It just feels clunky, unnatural, and makes aiming take a longer time. There are also technical issues. Sometimes when playing ArmA 2 (or replace with a game of your choice) I am being shot at by someone I can't see. They are completely invisible... until I zoom in. Very annoying when sometimes other players can see you but you can't because you are not zoomed in enough.
But zoom will be in game anyways. The thread should be locked since I doubt TWI is going to change it. No use discussing again/further.
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i beilve this is a realistic feuture i don't know why you would think this unrealistic. your eyes can and do zoom in. often times because its automatic and you don't notice it when it happens. however since games can't simulate your eyes this will have to do.
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This is my primary issue with fov zoom in Arma. Because using zoom you can look much further, automatically meaning that you can't look as far in your regular vision. Rendering your "regular" wide fov vision useless for spotting long range targets.
Because of this I need to continuously and instantaneously zoom in, if I want to have any chance of survival against long range targets.
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I'm usually just lurking, not posting, but this is something that I have to answer. The game is for PC, most of the key bindings for any game on PC are COMPLETELY changable, so whether you have a mouse with 1 button, 2 buttons, 3, or even 9, you can have them bound to anything, hell you can even bind your mouse1 button to walking forwards.
This is not an issue of any sort.
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I love zoom, but I have always felt that Arma went a little too far with the implementation of what I view as bionic eyes. The way they implemented that feature actually hurts game play. Why? Most people that play Arma use it as a form binoculars. They (including me) run around basically holding the zoom function so they can spot the enemy.
The moral of the story is that pixel hunting sucks b@lls and Arma2's use of zoom is just as bad as the former and absurdly unrealistic.
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I'm not sure I like the ARMA style zoom or understand why TWI thinks its realistic. I sure don't have a dial on the side of my head that lets me get a 4x zoom out of my eyes ...
I'd actually like to hear a dev explain why they included this.
I'd actually like to hear a dev explain why they included this.
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There is zoom in the game.
The most popular monitor size on steam is 20-22 inch these days with a 1680x1050 resolution. http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey
So say 22 inch is the size of said monitor. This is the diagonal width of a monitor with a 1680x1050 resolution or a 16:10 aspect ratio. Which is equal to a 18.6 inch width.
18.6 inch is equal to 0.47 meter. A user on average sits about half a meter or so from his screen.
Filling in the above formula gives you that Alpha is around 25 degrees, meaning that your computer screen takes about 50 degrees of your vision.
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In order to make characters appear at the right size as they would be in real life you would then need to run the game at a 50 degree fov. Since such a fov gives you serious tunnel vision and lacks the near 180 degree fov you have in real live, most games use for instance a fov of 90 (everything appears about 2 times as small as in reality but you can see a bit wider).
TWI decided to by default use a fov of 85, with some additional fov indicator at the side of the screen to simulate the 180 degree fov. And optionally by pressing the breathing key they give you a fov of around 50 so you can see a person as big as they are in reality on your screen. Allowing people to kill at realistic ranges.
So the fundamental basis for choosing it is not unrealistic
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However there are negative aspects as well to using this.
Due to having one real life size (zoomed) version of sight, and a wider peripheral version of sight. You often need to switch between both modes to get a full picture. This means you get a lot of transitioning between a zoomed and unzoomed which can for some people kill their immersion.
And as everything appears about twice as small in your peripheral vision it ends up that you can not spot distant enemies with your peripheral view, which in my opinion makes your peripheral vision pretty useless unless you are in close quarters combat (my experience from arma). As enemies are double as big in zoomed mode they use 4 times as many pixels making them generally 4 times easier to spot, so to spot enemies it forces you to use your "focussed" vision.
Next to that the system seems to use a set fov for the zoom factor (according to the bash and slash irc questions) , so if you sit twice as far from your monitor as an average person, everything will appear twice as small as it would in real life. And of course not everybody uses a 22 inch monitor either as people have monitors from 14 inch laptop screens to 50 inch tv screens or multi monitor setups.
Which is why I personally hope that within bounds set by twi, players can slightly adjust the fov for the peripheral view, normal ironsight view and the zoomed in view. So users can make the 1:1 zoom work on their home setups.
Something else that could work next to that is rather than basing the bounds of modifying the zoom factors based on an average size of a monitor, basing it on an average dpi resolution of monitors. And then using the actual in game resolution to create an estimation of the monitor size. I made a post about that here. http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=35969&highlight=arctan
This should have more than enough answered the question. Great explanation.
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You know the zoom gives you 1x zoom (well 1:1) when "zoomed in" and 0.5x zoom when zoomed out. I sure don't walk around with a 0.5x wide angle lens permanently attached to my eyes, whilst having tunnel vision inducing blinders to make sure I only get a 90 degree field of vision.
Either way is a compromise, have unrealistic zooming or have unrealistic FoV and/or target size.
The "zoom" should really help with long range rifle fire fights.
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It would be worse if you could not zoom when running around. Then you would need to go to a stand still every few meters, go into the ironsight to look around. As in arma especially if you are not in zoomed view you will simply not spot any enemy on time (in my experience). Spotting enemies while your character is moving around is already much more difficult, doing it without zoom would become impossible.
Overall I'm not a big fan of zoom, while I understand the reasoning for zoom, it somewhat simply forces you to play with a low fov at ranges over 100 meters. Making the wider fov only useful for close quarters combat.
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Just quoted these for truth (in my bionic set of eyes).
I really hate being unable to aim when some1 is standing 100 meters away. RO is the only game where I lean toward 10cm of my screen just to make out a pixel. While irl I would just aim and see his eyes staring at me (if you have good eyes irl of course).
The only solution is buying a 180 degrees screen and that doesn't work. so as some1 says above; It is always a compromise.
edit: somewhere in the first released videos, Ramm talks about distances being greater in RO2 (think he is talking about fallenheroes map) because the distances were too short in RO1.
So the distances get even greater, so next is 5cm from my screen to make out a pixel. bye bye eyes; you served me well..
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I like the zoom as well. Latest DH patch added a bit of zoom to the weapons, and damn, it's so much better now. You can actually shoot people, instead of pixels.
P.S. For those saying it's not realistic, and that they don't have a magical dial in their head, yeah, you also don't use a mouse when you aim a rifle in RL, and you can't respawn, and so on... This is still a video game, compromises should be made when there's a lack in technology.
P.S. For those saying it's not realistic, and that they don't have a magical dial in their head, yeah, you also don't use a mouse when you aim a rifle in RL, and you can't respawn, and so on... This is still a video game, compromises should be made when there's a lack in technology.
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You will always be shooting pixels, its just that targets that were 1 pixel before are now 4 pixels. But now you have other targets of only 1 pixel large that you couldn't see at all beforehand.
Pixelshooting never stops the only thing that changes is the range where it happens. And my issue is that having zoom, for the enemy, means that to spot a zoomed enemy you need to zoom yourself.
Pixelshooting never stops the only thing that changes is the range where it happens. And my issue is that having zoom, for the enemy, means that to spot a zoomed enemy you need to zoom yourself.
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But the range will change to the real range of the actual battle.
For example, if they could shoot at each other from one corner of the square to the other, why shouldn't it be that way in the game too?
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There is nothing against being able to kill targets at a realistic range. But the entire issue is you can only kill and see targets at a realistic range at the moment when you are zoomed in.
Meaning that in order to see people that you could see at a realistic range, you need to zoom in. If you are not zoomed in you can only see people at half the realistic range like in RO1, and won't see any threats that are looking at you from a zoomed state.
So if an enemy is firing at you from a realistic range while zoomed, the only way how you can ever spot him is by zooming yourself. In the end is that in arma to be effective at long range I pretty much only play in the low 50 degree fov setting as then you make a chance of spotting an enemy, while with the wide fov the enemy will always spot you first.
In your normal life you can see everything at a realistic range and while having that obtain a 180 degree fov. By having zoom in the low fov setting, means making the high fov setting completely useless for longer range.
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The high FOV setting is necessary for navigation purposes.
I'd also like to fast forward time to the AMOLED 180
I'd also like to fast forward time to the AMOLED 180
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I suppose a fix for that could be subtle indicator for targets you should be able to see at 1:1 scale, but can't see at 90 FOV. Sort of like the "glint" in the old Wing Commander series. Now imagine the hoopla over "unrealistic" reticles appearing in the HUD.
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I can see that there are three types of players who are against zooming.
1. Those, for whom zoom is an immersion breaker.
2. Those, for whom zoom is a realism breaker.
3. Those, for whom zoom is a balance breaker
I'll put down my thoughts on all three aspects:
1. I'll never turn off all the HUD elements because they "ruin the immersion", because I never forget that it's just a game. I might turn the HUD off, only because it might be more visually pleasant to not have any indicators on the screen. I think some people confuse these things, or never actually think about the differences. In the end - if it is just for a more visually pleasant picture, than I don't think that zooming will ruin anything.
2. I believe that for those players, the main problem with zooming is that there's a CHANGE in the FOV. If there would only be the zoomed-in state, it would be fine, except that you'll need a couple more monitors to be able to see anything around you. So, for the moment, think about zoom as a compromise. When everybody would be able to afford 3 monitor set-ups, the game will be more "realistic", but the time hasn't come yet.
3. I agree with Zets on this issue, but in the end, think about it as glancing over the horizon VS scanning the horizon for enemy. I just think that zoom adds to the game more than it takes away.
1. Those, for whom zoom is an immersion breaker.
2. Those, for whom zoom is a realism breaker.
3. Those, for whom zoom is a balance breaker
I'll put down my thoughts on all three aspects:
1. I'll never turn off all the HUD elements because they "ruin the immersion", because I never forget that it's just a game. I might turn the HUD off, only because it might be more visually pleasant to not have any indicators on the screen. I think some people confuse these things, or never actually think about the differences. In the end - if it is just for a more visually pleasant picture, than I don't think that zooming will ruin anything.
2. I believe that for those players, the main problem with zooming is that there's a CHANGE in the FOV. If there would only be the zoomed-in state, it would be fine, except that you'll need a couple more monitors to be able to see anything around you. So, for the moment, think about zoom as a compromise. When everybody would be able to afford 3 monitor set-ups, the game will be more "realistic", but the time hasn't come yet.
3. I agree with Zets on this issue, but in the end, think about it as glancing over the horizon VS scanning the horizon for enemy. I just think that zoom adds to the game more than it takes away.
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