Wondering the use of machineguns
- Thread starter Dee0342
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I've pretty much always been a Bolter but the last couple of games I've been trying the DP-28. I'm kinda liking it...and I think I am going to work on mastering (or at least becoming somewhat competent) with the LMG class.
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i believe the right intention was there, the suppression effects in RO1 were a total joke and here it looks like they put real effort into them,...
where it falls short, is that they scaled back the effects of it to the point where someone with a rifle can still pop up after a second or two of being "suppressed" and fire off a super accurate shot to kill the MG.... basically turning the effects into a fancy graphical element, and not a tactical gameplay element.
or more bluntly.....
another example of making the game friendly to new players, and an example of the cascading of effects design decisions have on gameplay, for example the complete lack of sway... so in this example the riflemen that can easily sprint half way across the whole map, after being suppressed, can stand up as if he had just taken a nap, and fire unsupported across the map with extreme accuracy
by themselves many of these gameplay changes would have been fine... if they did not have massive and culminating ripple effects on the way the entire game works as a cohesive, fun, and still mostly historically accurate whole.
They made too many design decisions that together have effects that are many times worse then each measured by themselves (herein lies the problem to all the topic's where things like "sway" or "running speed" are considered by themselves).
where it falls short, is that they scaled back the effects of it to the point where someone with a rifle can still pop up after a second or two of being "suppressed" and fire off a super accurate shot to kill the MG.... basically turning the effects into a fancy graphical element, and not a tactical gameplay element.
or more bluntly.....
another example of making the game friendly to new players, and an example of the cascading of effects design decisions have on gameplay, for example the complete lack of sway... so in this example the riflemen that can easily sprint half way across the whole map, after being suppressed, can stand up as if he had just taken a nap, and fire unsupported across the map with extreme accuracy
by themselves many of these gameplay changes would have been fine... if they did not have massive and culminating ripple effects on the way the entire game works as a cohesive, fun, and still mostly historically accurate whole.
They made too many design decisions that together have effects that are many times worse then each measured by themselves (herein lies the problem to all the topic's where things like "sway" or "running speed" are considered by themselves).
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Hoss, he -can't- stand up and shoot accurately after running for 100m because I've put a bullet in him by then. He never even got a chance to spot me, if I'm playing right.
The problem right now is players. We have a lot of folks using RO2 as a time kill until Battlefield 3. Once the arcade crowd is gone, this game will really come into it's own. Trust me, the tactical elements are there, and I can dominate the battlefield by using them properly. Just because my opponents are idiots doesn't mean that I have to resort to their tactics.
I don't get sniped by the pop up riflemen because they're predictable. All I need to do is hover my crosshairs over where they last were and wait. They always pop up in the same spots, and I always out-shoot them because I was ready for them (not to mention hard to spot, prone in some bushes or behind some cover or a dip in the terrain) and they had to try and search for me.
Nothing dumbed down or arcadey about it.
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I agree with you. MGs are kinda obsolete. You get picked off way to easily. There needs to be a feature where you can shoot and cover at the same time AND shoot fairly accurately. Bottom line is MGs need a change to make it more effective.
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What's the difference? If I'm shooting to kill, they have to get their heads down or I take them off. Congrats, they're suppressed.
That's fine and all but that's just the same as RO1 in the end while this game has this option to supress, while its pretty useless in its current state.
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Hi all,
the biggest real problems we have with MGs, IMHO, are lack of support fire by HMGs and excessive recoil of LMGs that makes them less useful than a semi-auto rifle.
- HMG positions
in real war, HMGs were placed far away (some hundreds metres) from the front line, where they could give support fire to advancing troops. Of course, there is not enough room in these Stalingrad maps to place the HMGs 500 or 600 metres away. But in our maps, HMG positions are not well protected or well camouflaged either, so that HMG are almost useless: HMG operators are easily sniped as soon as they open fire. At least, we should have better protected HMG positions, with a narrow loophole and sandbags all around.
We should have some of these positions at a slightly elevated area in the rear and in the flank of the maps (at least some maps like Spartanovka where support fire from some distance can be useful). We could also have a Heavu Machine Gunner class, so that those who choose this class already spawn near their weapon, instead of being compelled to grievous races across the battlefield to find and reach their positions (it is supposed that HMG gunners always stay at their post, or very close to it)
- Less barrel upwards sway due to recoil for bipod-mounted LMGs.
I think that it is very strange that recoil of LMGs throws the barrel upwards when the weapon is rested on the bipod... that would mean that the barrel is jumping up and the bipod is not touching the ground anymore. So only the first one bullet goes where intended, all others are high. MG34 is affected by this problem very much, DP 28 is still affected but to a lesser extent. Some team-mates are just using MG.34 for single shots, that surely is not what these weapons were intended for.
I see in these videos (MG.34 and MG.42)
MG-42 Video - YouTube
MG34 - YouTube
that there is recoil, that surely causes bullet dispersion, but the barrel is not thrown upwards.
Bye
Maraz
the biggest real problems we have with MGs, IMHO, are lack of support fire by HMGs and excessive recoil of LMGs that makes them less useful than a semi-auto rifle.
- HMG positions
in real war, HMGs were placed far away (some hundreds metres) from the front line, where they could give support fire to advancing troops. Of course, there is not enough room in these Stalingrad maps to place the HMGs 500 or 600 metres away. But in our maps, HMG positions are not well protected or well camouflaged either, so that HMG are almost useless: HMG operators are easily sniped as soon as they open fire. At least, we should have better protected HMG positions, with a narrow loophole and sandbags all around.
We should have some of these positions at a slightly elevated area in the rear and in the flank of the maps (at least some maps like Spartanovka where support fire from some distance can be useful). We could also have a Heavu Machine Gunner class, so that those who choose this class already spawn near their weapon, instead of being compelled to grievous races across the battlefield to find and reach their positions (it is supposed that HMG gunners always stay at their post, or very close to it)
- Less barrel upwards sway due to recoil for bipod-mounted LMGs.
I think that it is very strange that recoil of LMGs throws the barrel upwards when the weapon is rested on the bipod... that would mean that the barrel is jumping up and the bipod is not touching the ground anymore. So only the first one bullet goes where intended, all others are high. MG34 is affected by this problem very much, DP 28 is still affected but to a lesser extent. Some team-mates are just using MG.34 for single shots, that surely is not what these weapons were intended for.
I see in these videos (MG.34 and MG.42)
MG-42 Video - YouTube
MG34 - YouTube
that there is recoil, that surely causes bullet dispersion, but the barrel is not thrown upwards.
Bye
Maraz
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I use the DP-28/MG34 and my tactics with the MGs:
1. Find enemy. This step is one of the most important; nothing is more humiliating that shooting your comrades.
2. Aim your gun at him. That's also very important, because otherwise you're just being silly.
3. Pull the trigger in short bursts. IIRC this is how machine-gunners were trained to shoot; as least that's how they said they were in the video where some British Army blokes cut down a tree with either an M1919 or a Vickers.
Burst fire allows you to quickly assess the accuracy of your fire, and get back on target quicker. It also uses your ammo efficiently.
4. Relocate often. On RR servers they know from where you killed them, and can kill you accordingly.
5. Reload when you believe it is safe, when you're low on ammo in the magazine, or when the gun is empty. You shouldn't shoot your gun when it's empty.
1. Find enemy. This step is one of the most important; nothing is more humiliating that shooting your comrades.
2. Aim your gun at him. That's also very important, because otherwise you're just being silly.
3. Pull the trigger in short bursts. IIRC this is how machine-gunners were trained to shoot; as least that's how they said they were in the video where some British Army blokes cut down a tree with either an M1919 or a Vickers.
Burst fire allows you to quickly assess the accuracy of your fire, and get back on target quicker. It also uses your ammo efficiently.
4. Relocate often. On RR servers they know from where you killed them, and can kill you accordingly.
5. Reload when you believe it is safe, when you're low on ammo in the magazine, or when the gun is empty. You shouldn't shoot your gun when it's empty.
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As many have said, the key to using an MG properly is finding a good spot. Playing as an Axis MGer on Commisars House is just pure heaven. Rush into the first capzone and set up on the second floor. You'll have a perfect view of russians running out in the open, just waiting for you.
The MG is far from obsolete, if you know how to use it right.
The MG is far from obsolete, if you know how to use it right.
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I really like the MG and do pretty good with it. Just the suppression could be greater.
I had it more than once that i KNEW where the enemy is hiding, shot some bursts at his sandbag and right as i ended one burst he pops up and kills me instantly.
While this is not as common as it was in RO1 it still is a nuisance.
I had it more than once that i KNEW where the enemy is hiding, shot some bursts at his sandbag and right as i ended one burst he pops up and kills me instantly.
While this is not as common as it was in RO1 it still is a nuisance.
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The best tip I can give you is to favour 100m+ engagements. What you want to do is be shooting at people that can't run very far away from your aim point because you can't track the gun very far. I know that sounds counter-intuitive, but the closer he can get, the safer the enemy is. He has more ways to avoid getting hit.
Your gun is accurate enough to hit targets like that very easily with a three round burst or even single shot, especially if you use shift-zoom to get an accurate sight picture. Don't be afraid to change the gun's zero from 100m to 200m for running around. You're slower than everyone else, anyway, so you'll be behind them a fair distance. Aim to stay within 50m or so behind or in front of them, but always offset so that you can cover their entire frontage barring obstructions.
For long range hunting, the next setting on the sight is 400m. This shows you the difference between the rifle and the gun. The rifleman is meant to stay close to the enemy, but the gunner is meant to range around covering wide swathes of territory via positioning and movement. You're following your squad's movements, but you're usually moving more. You may have to run out further to cover approaches or whatever.
When you aim, don't aim for centre mass. Once again, this is different from what you do with other weapons. If you aim at the centre, your first bullet will hit. But the second may miss high, and the third definitely will. Get used to what the grouping is, and aim to walk the rounds onto the target, rather than off. Aim at his hips or knees or even feet. At 100m or so, I'm mostly aiming at the knees of a running target.
Think of painting vertical stripes. Track the gun, fire a stripe, track the gun, fire a stripe. This puts a wall of bullets about 2m high everywhere you pull the trigger. If multiple targets are bunched up, do not spray. Keep painting vertical stripes. You will kill them faster because the gun never gets out of control and every bullet has an equal chance to hit something vital.
When the gun goes bang, everyone looks. Always. This is the real suppression effect of a machine gun. When you fire, you announce yourself to the world like the Jaws theme. Don't warn them. You want them to go "holy crap, an mg over there just killed three guys in a second, I won't go there". Then you move to where he does go. Now you have suppressed the enemy from going to one place, directing him to where you want him, and then you can surprise him again.
Let me set the mood for you: The machine gun is the scariest mother on the battlefield because it kills people. In fact it kills the most people of all weapons on the battlefield. When the assault troops run into the objective, you want them to find dead bodies. If they have to kill anyone, then you have failed. Never do anything that hinders your ability to kill people. Don't get seen. If the enemy knows where you are, move. Every round counts. People died to bring them to you. That's how to think like a gunner.
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I just thought a way you can test yourself on the gun. Do the training mission and do the MG part. They use three closely bunched targets for each location. This is your "no more than three bursts from one location" simulator. When you shoot at a different set of targets, it's like you displaced around a single target.
So when you try to do it, first try spraying the targets. See what happens. Then try doing three round bursts, but walking them horizontally across the targets trying to get one round on each, as most people do. Then try painting a single vertical 3 round stripe on each target, starting at the knees and letting it rise straight up without fighting it at all.
I am betting you will find that you will hit every target with at least two rounds within a second or two.
Once you are satisfied that this way suits you, then practice a few times on that range, setting the sights properly and so on, for different ranges. Try to get a feel for how rapidly you can fire bursts at different ranges. In close you can almost fire constantly, at 400m you might have to wait a second between each burst for the gun to settle and to adjust your aim. You should be able to engage 5 target groups, killing each target, before reloading. That's 15 kills. You can't get any more suppressed than that.
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As the guys just above covered, there are ways of being incredibly effective with an MG. With their advice/tutorials in mind, I'm glad I often find MG slots open as I wouldn't want a fool to be occupying a slot they don't really understand how to use.
As for suppression, I don't focus on suppressing people via the mechanic of the game. I use the fact there are still tracers chewing up the cover you are behind as a method of suppression- do you really want to spend another 5-25 seconds staring at the respawn counter because you didn't care about an MG firing at you?
I know when an MG is firing at me I ignore the suppression graphic. This doesn't mean I poke my head out and try to take on the MG with a bolt action or semi auto rifle, it means I duck away and find a safer route regardless the time I spend taking it. I assume other people do the same as well, so when I tote an MG around, I focus on this ideal and figure if I don't kill the guy I'm firing at, I will keep his head down or force him to find a better way around.
My only disappointment with MG's in the game is the lack of a periscope on the tripod mounted MG-34s. The rest of the complaints I feel are overcome by knowing how to use the role properly.
As for suppression, I don't focus on suppressing people via the mechanic of the game. I use the fact there are still tracers chewing up the cover you are behind as a method of suppression- do you really want to spend another 5-25 seconds staring at the respawn counter because you didn't care about an MG firing at you?
I know when an MG is firing at me I ignore the suppression graphic. This doesn't mean I poke my head out and try to take on the MG with a bolt action or semi auto rifle, it means I duck away and find a safer route regardless the time I spend taking it. I assume other people do the same as well, so when I tote an MG around, I focus on this ideal and figure if I don't kill the guy I'm firing at, I will keep his head down or force him to find a better way around.
My only disappointment with MG's in the game is the lack of a periscope on the tripod mounted MG-34s. The rest of the complaints I feel are overcome by knowing how to use the role properly.
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The mgs accuracy needs to be improved, that's all. Right now it's nothing more than a semi-automatic rifle like G41 or SVT with the bonus of a very large magazine and the drawback of having zero mobility. You can't even fire in bursts of 5 because only the first shot is on target while the other 4 fly off in a 20 meter radius. The one thing a machine gun should be good at is hitting moving targets and for that you need to be able to fire in tight bursts. Ingame the Sturmgewehr prototype is better controllable than the MG34 witch total nonsense because the light machine gun is twice as heavy as the assault rifle.
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I love it that people think the machine guns suck. Means those slots are left open for people who actually know how to use the class.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone complained the suppression "wasn't what they thought it would be." What, you thought it would be an I Win button that makes enemy characters drop their guns and surrender?
The one thing I want for the MGs is player deployable or movable MG tripods.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone complained the suppression "wasn't what they thought it would be." What, you thought it would be an I Win button that makes enemy characters drop their guns and surrender?
The one thing I want for the MGs is player deployable or movable MG tripods.
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Not at all. If he's finding another way around, or even better squatting in his hole like a big meaty frog he's not shooting my comrades. I don't need a visual effect to make him stop and think about trying to get past me or popping out to try and shoot my mates.
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I decided to come and give you a bit more support again, Karma.
Gamers are just that: gamers. But despite not knowing what actual suppression is, that does not imply they won't react to it any less than someone who has actually been shot at. They would probably be even worse off. I find the game-y suppression in RO2 to be less realistic and less intense than the self-inflicted psychological suppression that soldiers impress upon themselves. Sure, aids in the game need to be there; but they are loud bullet cracks, loud grenade explosions, and more pronounced projectile impact effects (dust, dust, dust). They are not wobbly screen, shaking arms and grey-scale, as those (while visually impressive) aren't as half as effective as hearing something that you know will do serious damage to your character, or at least sounds threatening enough. Further, you're exactly right when you say the best suppression in existence is seeing your mate get shot right next to you. Because from there you start thinking, quite realistically, "I'm next". And there's nothing worse than that sense of dread when you've worked your *** off for ten minutes to get yourself into the position that, you realise, is going to be the last patch of soil you see until you respawn.
I had a buddy that almost took a 7.62 richochet during an MG shoot in the butts. After that, no one made a single smart-*** remark, everybody replaced their hearing pro-, each bloke that had them put his sunnies on, and most of us spent the rest of the session looking squarely at the ground.
Post scriptum
I was going to PM you about getting a machinegun section going in some pub play, but apparently you don't accept those messages.
Woe.
Wally
Gamers are just that: gamers. But despite not knowing what actual suppression is, that does not imply they won't react to it any less than someone who has actually been shot at. They would probably be even worse off. I find the game-y suppression in RO2 to be less realistic and less intense than the self-inflicted psychological suppression that soldiers impress upon themselves. Sure, aids in the game need to be there; but they are loud bullet cracks, loud grenade explosions, and more pronounced projectile impact effects (dust, dust, dust). They are not wobbly screen, shaking arms and grey-scale, as those (while visually impressive) aren't as half as effective as hearing something that you know will do serious damage to your character, or at least sounds threatening enough. Further, you're exactly right when you say the best suppression in existence is seeing your mate get shot right next to you. Because from there you start thinking, quite realistically, "I'm next". And there's nothing worse than that sense of dread when you've worked your *** off for ten minutes to get yourself into the position that, you realise, is going to be the last patch of soil you see until you respawn.
I had a buddy that almost took a 7.62 richochet during an MG shoot in the butts. After that, no one made a single smart-*** remark, everybody replaced their hearing pro-, each bloke that had them put his sunnies on, and most of us spent the rest of the session looking squarely at the ground.
Post scriptum
I was going to PM you about getting a machinegun section going in some pub play, but apparently you don't accept those messages.
Woe.
Wally
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Simply put, suppression must affect aiming severly before you can play an MG as a proper MG should. Until that time (which will most likely never come) You're basically a sniper with 40 round magazine and rapid fire. I'm not debating wether the MG class is viable or not, because it is, as I play it a lot. But realistically we're not doing what we're supposed to.
Even if the player behind the screen doesn't feel the fear of death, the character he is playing would. The screen going black and white is not enough. It's merely an annoyance at most.
Even if the player behind the screen doesn't feel the fear of death, the character he is playing would. The screen going black and white is not enough. It's merely an annoyance at most.
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Please please please read the thread before posting. This has been hashed and rehashed dozens of times already. Please read the daggum thread.
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