KF What is it?

[PrometheusTitan]

I would just like to officially know what engine Killing Floor Runs on?

It seems so limited considering what it is supposed to be.

On Wikipedia, in the list of Unreal Engine games it is marked as UE2.5 Build 3323.

In the sub page for Killing Floor it is marked as Heavily modified Unreal Engine 2.

These are two things. UE2.5 is obviously an enhanced version of UE2, but it is not UE2, it's in a class of its own according to Epic who developed Unreal.

I ask this question because you look at the other games that run UE2.5 and they're leaps and bounds above KF in terms of abilities and limitations.

If I'm not mistaken, KF cannot support video cut scenes, animated movers, certain texture and model settings, so on and so fourth.

What exactly is Killing floor running on?

It confuses me because take Bioshock, main page states UE2 Build 2226

Its sub page states Modified Unreal Engine 2.5.

Bioshock has cutscenes, animated movers, smoother graphics...

Bioshock released 2007, Killing Floor 2009.

How can a +2 year gap in enhancements still make Killing Floor so limited when compared to Bioshocks abilities.

Interested in the answers. I like to develop on the Unreal Engine and I just wonder how deep can you develop in Killing Floor?

 

[Yoshiro]

We use a build of UE 2.5 that is modified for our uses. Most of our modifications are net code related (with a few graphical upgrades).

Bioshock 1 uses a hybrid of a HEAVILY modified UE 2.5 (Vengeance engine upgrade, used in Tribes: Vengeance and SWAT 4) with Unreal Engine 3's rendering system if I recall correctly.

Some other UE 2.5 titles have had the engine also heavily modified and upgraded (such as the Splinter Cell series). At that point it is pretty pointless to call the engine "Unreal Engine 2.5" due to how many changes to the base systems have been made.

Those triple A studios that have updated the engines have entire engine teams dedicated to making advancments. We did not have (our still only) dedicated engine programmer til we started working Red Orchestra 2 (which is built on top of Unreal Engine 3).

 

[Dub]

So, heh. Yoshiro. Speaking about updated engines... c;

 

[zYnthetic]

Bioshock as a UE2 class game is an outlier and considering its rendering libraries for all purposes visual is actually UE3. I think you'll find most games that use UE2 for everything generally have the same visual capabilities. How they make use of those tend to be driven by hardware limitations of its time and the platforms it may be on.

 

[Captain Howel]

We use a build of UE 2.5 that is modified for our uses. Most of our modifications are net code related (with a few graphical upgrades).

Bioshock 1 uses a hybrid of a HEAVILY modified UE 2.5 (Vengeance engine upgrade, used in Tribes: Vengeance and SWAT 4) with Unreal Engine 3's rendering system if I recall correctly.

Some other UE 2.5 titles have had the engine also heavily modified and upgraded (such as the Splinter Cell series). At that point it is pretty pointless to call the engine "Unreal Engine 2.5" due to how many changes to the base systems have been made.

Those triple A studios that have updated the engines have entire engine teams dedicated to making advancments. We did not have (our still only) dedicated engine programmer til we started working Red Orchestra 2 (which is built on top of Unreal Engine 3).

Did you guys build KF just using the UE2.5 version of UDK?
I'd like to work with the UE3 version of UDK for a project of my own and I was using KF as a point of reference for figuring out scope. I want to know if what I want to make (which is somewhat smaller than KF in terms of how much I would need to develop) is doable using just UDK, or if I'd need to use a UE3 license.

 

[zYnthetic]

Did you guys build KF just using the UE2.5 version of UDK?
I'd like to work with the UE3 version of UDK for a project of my own and I was using KF as a point of reference for figuring out scope. I want to know if what I want to make (which is somewhat smaller than KF in terms of how much I would need to develop) is doable using just UDK, or if I'd need to use a UE3 license.

There was never a 2.5 UDK. Unless you plan on modifying the engine you don't need engine source; UDK will do.

 

[DrunkeN WolfeR]

Bioshock released 2007, Killing Floor 2009.

How can a +2 year gap in enhancements still make Killing Floor so limited when compared to Bioshocks abilities.

The first version of the Vengeance engine (Unreal Engine 2) was made it in the 2004, so that gap is a bit bigger.

The visuals weren't that outstanding like in Bioshock, but included some cool visual features that KF doesn't have. But like Yoshiro said, those are triple A studios.

Some wikipedia copy/paste in the spoiler...

Spoiler!

The Vengeance Engine, also known as the Tribes: Vengeance engine had several new features:

*Unreal Engine 2 Core System base

*Integration into the Havok physics 2 engine

*Support for DirectX 9 rendering capabilities (such as supporting the Shader model 2.0)

*Normal mapping with per pixel lighting, as well as normal-mapped and bump-mapped animated models, objects and scenery.

*High dynamic range rendering (HDR) using post-processing effects
Pixel shaded water effects

*Improved terrain texturing and light-mapping

*Highly optimized terrain detail mesh renderer (Allowing terrain artifacts like thick grass)

In addition, it was shipped with new and improved tools:

*Mojo (a cutscene toolset) for the Unreal Engine

*An enhanced version of UnrealEd with new features

 

[PotentiaLeaena]

Did you guys build KF just using the UE2.5 version of UDK?
I'd like to work with the UE3 version of UDK for a project of my own and I was using KF as a point of reference for figuring out scope. I want to know if what I want to make (which is somewhat smaller than KF in terms of how much I would need to develop) is doable using just UDK, or if I'd need to use a UE3 license.

It really depends on what you want to do. If you need to modify the engine, then you'd need a license from Unreal anyway (they don't provide engine source without a full license).

Most use cases won't need to modify the engine though, and the UDK (w/royalties starting at 50k sales for commercial projects) will work just fine.

 

[PrometheusTitan]

We use a build of UE 2.5 that is modified for our uses. Most of our modifications are net code related (with a few graphical upgrades).

...

That is an awesome reply, thank you very much.

So how technical you can get with the engine KF utilises?

For example, could it support any type of cutscene video format? Or would it be a cutscene within the game, AKA using the actual level as the stage and having animated objects interact with it.

With the addition of the new story mode, I just wonder how deep and techincal it could possibly get.

I recall a few mission maps from years back utilising a cutscene feature, The first was the Resident Evil mansion, which used it at its most basic. Then the second was a Christmas Mission map made by Fel. That used the same feature in the intro, just more tweaked.

The only draw back from these maps is that when the cutscene kicks in, all you can see center screen is your characters arms.

But then on the other hand, there is a cutscene in every game if you survive to the end. When Patriarch spawns a cutscene kicks in, a cutscene without the charactets arms centre screen.

So in theory, its obvious that the ability is there, it's just a case of how techincal can we get with the KF engine to make those cutscenes smooth and look more convincing? Can we utilise what cutscene the Patriarch uses and impliment it as a cutscene in a story map?


PS. I know that the new storymode doesn't have any cutscenes, I would just like to know if it would be possible and how difficult it would be to do
Thanks again.

 

[poosh]

From that point of view, Source is a heavily modified version of Quake 1 engine...

 

[Yoshiro]

From that point of view, Source is a heavily modified version of Quake 1 engine...

Not entirely true.

GoldSource (Half Life 1 engine) was as hybrid build of IdTech 1 and 2 (renamed from Quake). The current Source engine was built on top of that over the years (much like Unreal 2 is built on top of parts of Unreal 1, and Unreal 3 on top of parts of Unreal 2). When engines move to a new "version" they are often built on some of the core tech of the previous engine, while other parts are overhauled or completely replaced.

 

[Yoshiro]

That is an awesome reply, thank you very much.

So how technical you can get with the engine KF utilises?

For example, could it support any type of cutscene video format? Or would it be a cutscene within the game, AKA using the actual level as the stage and having animated objects interact with it.

With the addition of the new story mode, I just wonder how deep and techincal it could possibly get.

I recall a few mission maps from years back utilising a cutscene feature, The first was the Resident Evil mansion, which used it at its most basic. Then the second was a Christmas Mission map made by Fel. That used the same feature in the intro, just more tweaked.

The only draw back from these maps is that when the cutscene kicks in, all you can see center screen is your characters arms.

But then on the other hand, there is a cutscene in every game if you survive to the end. When Patriarch spawns a cutscene kicks in, a cutscene without the charactets arms centre screen.

So in theory, its obvious that the ability is there, it's just a case of how techincal can we get with the KF engine to make those cutscenes smooth and look more convincing? Can we utilise what cutscene the Patriarch uses and impliment it as a cutscene in a story map?


PS. I know that the new storymode doesn't have any cutscenes, I would just like to know if it would be possible and how difficult it would be to do
Thanks again.

We have a full engine license, and can do whatever we want (and have the manpower) to do. At this time we have no plans to do major overhauls of our build of the engine for Killing Floor (beyond the work we are currently doing to improve the OpenGL rendering system).

Out of the box UE 2/.5 does not contain alot of functionality for scripted events/cut scenes that work in a multiplayer environment (they do work in a single player environment however). We've done some work to get some of those systems working online (that we use in our maps).

 

[Yoshiro]

Did you guys build KF just using the UE2.5 version of UDK?
I'd like to work with the UE3 version of UDK for a project of my own and I was using KF as a point of reference for figuring out scope. I want to know if what I want to make (which is somewhat smaller than KF in terms of how much I would need to develop) is doable using just UDK, or if I'd need to use a UE3 license.

Full engine license (UDK did not exist for that engine). We also have a full engine license for Red Orchestra 2/Rising Storm.

Depending on what you want to do, there are some cheaper engines out there that will get you access to the source code, or I believe there is a version of the CryTek engine distributed similarly to the UDK that will get you access to the source (or at least parts of it).

 

[Arblarg]

We have a full engine license, and can do whatever we want (and have the manpower) to do. At this time we have no plans to do major overhauls of our build of the engine for Killing Floor

Bummer.

Well since you're on a roll, mind confirming or denying the existence of plans for a Killing Floor 2?

 

[Tefaan]

Bummer.

Well since you're on a roll, mind confirming or denying the existence of plans for a Killing Floor 2?

I'm sure there will be a sequel. Look at this stuff:

https://twitter.com/TripwireYoshiro/status/349260455757365248

And:

That was changed to:

Technical Director

Tripwire Interactive LLC


Privately Held; 11-50 employees; Computer Games industry
February 2013 – June 2013 (5 months) Roswell, GA
Technical management and leading, hands on work on Red Orchestra Rising Storm and upcoming projects.

 

[PrometheusTitan]

We have a full engine license, and can do whatever we want (and have the manpower) to do. At this time we have no plans to do major overhauls of our build of the engine for Killing Floor (beyond the work we are currently doing to improve the OpenGL rendering system).

Out of the box UE 2/.5 does not contain alot of functionality for scripted events/cut scenes that work in a multiplayer environment (they do work in a single player environment however). We've done some work to get some of those systems working online (that we use in our maps).

Thanks for the reply again. I don't think I explained my intentions quite right before.

What i meant was, can you do it as in can I do it, not can you as in can TWI do it.

I was just wondering the limitations of just how much I can personally tweak the engine, or the code structure should I use it as a base start point for my own project.

What I know now is that it can be done if the correct scripting is in place.

Which speaking of scripting, i'm just going to roll off in a direction for a minute:

Mutators sit on top of KFs base code to allow for custom features, for example:

Gun 1 shoots 3 bullets in the vanilla code.
Gun 1 shoots 20 bullets in the mutator code.

The mutator code when activated super seeds the vanilla code.

Now here's my question:

Is it possible to edit the vanilla code directly and do away with mutators?

The direction I'm heading here is a stand alone modification like DA2.

We've gone away from mutators and Killing Floor now, we are talking an entirely stand alone build based on Killing Floors foundations that doesn't require mutators to customise the code.

I'm looking to cut out that middle man. The middle man being the mutator.

That was difficult to explain, i really do hope someone understood it.

Thank you, maybe this thread should have gone to the modding section, or support section, I don't know, its turned hybrid now.

 

[Zombie Overlord]

I'm sure there will be a sequel. Look at this stuff:

[url]https://twitter.com/TripwireYoshiro/status/349260455757365248[/URL]

And:

That was changed to:

Technical Director

Tripwire Interactive LLC


Privately Held; 11-50 employees; Computer Games industry
February 2013

 

[Yoshiro]

Thanks for the reply again. I don't think I explained my intentions quite right before.

What i meant was, can you do it as in can I do it, not can you as in can TWI do it.

I was just wondering the limitations of just how much I can personally tweak the engine, or the code structure should I use it as a base start point for my own project.

What I know now is that it can be done if the correct scripting is in place.

Which speaking of scripting, i'm just going to roll off in a direction for a minute:

Mutators sit on top of KFs base code to allow for custom features, for example:

Gun 1 shoots 3 bullets in the vanilla code.
Gun 1 shoots 20 bullets in the mutator code.

The mutator code when activated super seeds the vanilla code.

Now here's my question:

Is it possible to edit the vanilla code directly and do away with mutators?

The direction I'm heading here is a stand alone modification like DA2.

We've gone away from mutators and Killing Floor now, we are talking an entirely stand alone build based on Killing Floors foundations that doesn't require mutators to customise the code.

I'm looking to cut out that middle man. The middle man being the mutator.

That was difficult to explain, i really do hope someone understood it.

Thank you, maybe this thread should have gone to the modding section, or support section, I don't know, its turned hybrid now.

Can you make engine changes? No, not without a full license to the engine so you can build native code. Also using any of Epic's, our or the DA mods code without permission will get you a cease and desist letter (followed by a lawsuit from the parties wronged).


You can build uscript (not as a mod/mutator) with any version of the engine, but the one you can get your hands on for free is the UDK.

If you think you have something awesome, but need to use our code, approach us with something awesome (already built) and we can talk (that is how Killing Floor happened (sorta, it was a mod we were porting to RO 1 and decided to make into a full stand alone game).

 

[PrometheusTitan]

Can you make engine changes? No, not without a full license to the engine so you can build native code. Also using any of Epic's, our or the DA mods code without permission will get you a cease and desist letter (followed by a lawsuit from the parties wronged).

Once again thank you for personally answering my questions. My idea was never to steal anyone's work, more to learn from it and possibly to temporarily use it to base a prototype from.

I have a picture in my head of what I would like to achieve, I'd be lying if I said the structure of Killing Floor wouldn't temporarily be a near perfect platform to build a prototype off of.

Would I be right in thinking that because my project has no intention of a public release that I could work from Killing Floor to build a prototype for personal use? After all no one would have access to it or even see it but me.

I really do appreciate the responses Yoshiro, it is nice to be on the same level and get some concrete answers from the people you're aspiring to be. And it is great to hear that you're open to be approached with prototype material, that really gives something to aim for.

Thanks again.

 

[Yoshiro]

It is sort of a legal grey area I believe (I am not a lawyer so do not take my word as final here). But I do not believe there is anything outright illegal about that.