I agree. I think they should actually take a few of these guns out to the shooting range and get realistic data, and use it.
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Various suggestions from {Core}Metalhead
- Thread starter Metalhead
- Start date
I agree. I think they should actually take a few of these guns out to the shooting range and get realistic data, and use it.
If you are going to increase the deploying time, MGs HAVE to be able to duck down without dropping the gun, and they HAVE to be able to leave the MG and run quickly if a nade comes through the window for example.
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Close combat turned useless when TW changed it in one patch after the game's launch. It was much better in mod and a little while in RO retail imo. I think the range needs to be increased again to prevent these comical brawls where both are dying behind their monitors of laughter. I never really understood why it was changed 
.
I agree with this. Also there has been numerous accident teamkills when your weapon is shot out of your hands and then it switches to grenade right away.
.-[SiN]-bswearer said:
I agree with this. Also there has been numerous accident teamkills when your weapon is shot out of your hands and then it switches to grenade right away.
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Hip shooting is out of control, once you get good at it, it's seriously beyond stupid.
I now hip shoot all the time because simply there is a great chance of hitting even from long range. Why not take a shot while running for cover, it works and this is not right. Obviously when I'm not in danger I use iron sights where possible but even without marking your screen, it's amazing. It's like the old awp from Counter Strike Source, out of control, at least they fixed it.
The DH suppression system is amazing, TW would be absolutely crazy not to use it in some form.
The key point a few of you still don't recognise is that while RO is a realism mod, you can't make it completely realistic because that would make the game boring. Having all powerful and plentiful nades while realistic takes away significantly from the fun of the game. If DH grenades are less powerful which does make sense now that you mention it, it's a great move. The other great thing DH has done is reduce the amount of grenades as well, constantly getting killed by grenades that are thrown simply in hope that someone will be there again is NOT FUN.
You have to find the right balance between realism. DH has almost hit the nail on the head in so many ways, it's an amazing game.
I now hip shoot all the time because simply there is a great chance of hitting even from long range. Why not take a shot while running for cover, it works and this is not right. Obviously when I'm not in danger I use iron sights where possible but even without marking your screen, it's amazing. It's like the old awp from Counter Strike Source, out of control, at least they fixed it.
The DH suppression system is amazing, TW would be absolutely crazy not to use it in some form.
The key point a few of you still don't recognise is that while RO is a realism mod, you can't make it completely realistic because that would make the game boring. Having all powerful and plentiful nades while realistic takes away significantly from the fun of the game. If DH grenades are less powerful which does make sense now that you mention it, it's a great move. The other great thing DH has done is reduce the amount of grenades as well, constantly getting killed by grenades that are thrown simply in hope that someone will be there again is NOT FUN.
You have to find the right balance between realism. DH has almost hit the nail on the head in so many ways, it's an amazing game.
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It's definately 100% irrefutable that you can practice hipfiring with a bolt to the point at which you can get accurate shots at as much as 30 ft or more.
I've hipshot someone, while i was moving, who was hiding in the MG nest overlooking Church Park. The shot was from the middle of the park, about 50ft. (map: the one with Krasnaya Apartments)
Edit: I think the SMG recoil is fine, but the SMG _DAMAGE_ is underwhelming! Same with pistols really. I don't mind that an SMG and a pistol require multiple hits at range; they're shortbarrel weapons with small bullets, that's understandable. But what annoys me is that two bullets in the chest from a pistol or SMG usually aren't lethal even when you're up close.
I realise the small caliber makes one/two shots survivable, but it's consistantly survived in RO. Dare I say it, the pistol damage in RO... is similar to COD!
Hopefully the complex skeleton and organ system in ROHOS will sort this.
I've hipshot someone, while i was moving, who was hiding in the MG nest overlooking Church Park. The shot was from the middle of the park, about 50ft. (map: the one with Krasnaya Apartments
)Edit: I think the SMG recoil is fine, but the SMG _DAMAGE_ is underwhelming! Same with pistols really. I don't mind that an SMG and a pistol require multiple hits at range; they're shortbarrel weapons with small bullets, that's understandable. But what annoys me is that two bullets in the chest from a pistol or SMG usually aren't lethal even when you're up close.
I realise the small caliber makes one/two shots survivable, but it's consistantly survived in RO. Dare I say it, the pistol damage in RO... is similar to COD!
Hopefully the complex skeleton and organ system in ROHOS will sort this.
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MG ROLE
First of all and like many players suggested on these forums, I'd like to see in RO:HOS a very good suppression fire system like the one in darkest hour for example. IMO it really is a good addition it reinforces the role of the mg at covering partners and putting on the ground ennemies and blocking them which is obsolete at RO cause the standard motion blur effects can't prevent pixel sniping from riflemen and snipers. I believe this addition would be liked by the players and is easy to do
As an MG player I always thought that the deploying time was way too fast, IMO it should be longer and with the suppresion fire system it should make the mg class look like one
SMG's vs RIFLES
What always annoyed me in RO is that the smg class is absolutely underrated at a point where on the highest competitive matches some skilled riflemen can easily match the ennemy assault troopers on close range fights while they absolutely destroy them on long range combat.
This feeling is also highly reinforced by the pop-up bug... I think that the measures that could even those two classes is too
-Make hipshoting with the rifle more difficult (it's very easy to hipshot at the moment, some players can hit like 60% of the time when they hipshot which is ridiculous)
-Add the suppression fire system ( again this is very important point )
-Less recoil for smgers (especially when knees put on the ground)
-no pop-up bug for RO:HOS (but I guess there won't be such a bug )
I would like to summarize this entire post.
Mr. Metalhead does not like bolt action rifles. He thinks they're too powerful.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Okay, now that that's out of the way....
Pixel sniping is not easy, it's a nightmare. The bolt rifle is more accurate as a result of being a single shot mechanism. You don't have to worry about recoil and you don't have to worry about machining tolerances or mechanisms jostling the object in the middle of firing.
It's job is to displace machine gunners. If you disagree that this is the role of snipers, you should probably read a book on infantry tactics.
The suppression mechanic in DH is overstated and carries serious liabilities, in addition to being unrealistic. Merely firing near someone, including allies, causes them to flinch uncontrollably and cannot stop. Because this is of course exactly what happens when bullets pass nearby.
Hipshooting is not difficult because it is not difficult in real life. You merely line the barrel up with your target and the bullet shoots out of the barrel and hits your enemy. There is no way to make this "more difficult" without making it less realistic, in part requiring changes to the whole ballistics modeling system or perhaps adding an arbitrary flinching mechanism causing you to flinch uncontrollably whenever a submachine gunner is nearby (because they don't have enough advantages in CQC).
If you can't deal with a hipshooter I suggest you learn how to zigzag like they were taught to do in real life, close the distance, and stand 5 feet away where it doesn't matter how much recoil you have or how much of an inept noob you are, you cannot miss.
The popup bug is a bug. Voila, problem solved. What do you know, bugs were not intentional, that's why they call them bugs.
As far as recoil for submachine guns.....it should equate with reality. No more, no less. Anything else is just begging for handouts for the sake of some arbitrary, preconceived notion of "balance" that includes assault troopers spontaneously being able to kill everyone in close quarters because that's what they do.
I think that part of the problem is that you're not compensating for the recoil. You can compensate for the recoil with your mouse which simulates the weight of your body and any additional force you apply to relax the recoil. I think you'll find that when properly supported and when compensating for recoil the recoil is more in line with how an SMG really operates. I hesitate to think that submachine guns can be fired from the hip with virtually no recoil at 900 RPM without even trying to compensate for recoil or having a steady grip while zigzagging around after sprinting for 30 seconds straight (normal combat situation in Danzig).
If all else fails you can always corner camp and chew through riflemen.
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It's definately 100% irrefutable that you can practice hipfiring with a bolt to the point at which you can get accurate shots at as much as 30 ft or more.
I've hipshot someone, while i was moving, who was hiding in the MG nest overlooking Church Park. The shot was from the middle of the park, about 50ft. (map: the one with Krasnaya Apartments
Edit: I think the SMG recoil is fine, but the SMG _DAMAGE_ is underwhelming! Same with pistols really. I don't mind that an SMG and a pistol require multiple hits at range; they're shortbarrel weapons with small bullets, that's understandable. But what annoys me is that two bullets in the chest from a pistol or SMG usually aren't lethal even when you're up close.
I realise the small caliber makes one/two shots survivable, but it's consistantly survived in RO. Dare I say it, the pistol damage in RO... is similar to COD!
Hopefully the complex skeleton and organ system in ROHOS will sort this.
Guess what, people survive pistol shots. People survive multiple pistol shots. 9mm is largely regarded as a caliber incapable of bringing down large men without several well placed shots. 7.62x25mm Tokarev has even less kinetic energy and thus is less powerful, so you should expect less of it.
What the realistic internal damage modeling in HOS will do is not make the process of killing someone with a pistol round easier, it will merely make the killing power of the round contingent on whether or not you hit a vital organ, which is how it is in real life. 9mm rounds cause a very small wound channel as a result of their poor terminal ballistics. Keep in mind we're talking about full metal jacket rounds, here. You essentially have to place your rounds close enough to a vital organ to perforate it with a bullet to instantly kill someone. A 9mm has virtually no "stopping power" to speak of, you have no reasonable expectation of killing a man hopped up on adrenaline and in a fight for survival when your round perforates his some empty space in his chest.
Keep in mind there are plenty of reports on the MUCH more powerful and devastating (with better terminal ballistics) 5.56x45mm ammunition failing to kill or stop targets after several shots.
How do you propose they "fix" it?
Every "fix" would be arbitrary.
In real life I don't give a **** if you're using an AWP from the hip, hip shooting is as simple as lining up the barrel with your target and firing.
My issue is with stupid games that use crosshairs and bullet deviation instead of free aim to approximate a round's trajectory. This is something that I think makes Red Orchestra better, the level of consistency. Your problem is with the fact that hipshooting can be accurate and devastating even with a slow firing weapon. I'm sorry that's the case and that's all the concession I can offer you.
For your other suggestions, to reduce the level of realism offered in Red Orchestra, I can merely ask that you go play DH, wait for a mod, make your own, or find some other piece of pseudo-realism like COD to go and play.
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As someone who FREQUENTLY hipshoots I can confirm that your rifle sways in hip mode. Go test it. Go play a game, choose any rifle, hold it at the hip and watch it sway in small circles.
Evidently you're not familiar with WWII semi automatics? They really did have significant deviation, much more so than your average bolt action rifle.
Also, a semi automatic is subject to tolerances. Semi automatic rifles' accuracy is contingent on the tightness of the machining tolerances, the looser they are, the less accurate they are. WWII manufacturing, I'm sure, produced some fabulously terrible rifles. In addition, a rifle with tight tolerances, like the G41, while very accurate, is highly subject to dirt and debri from battle field conditions which can cause the rifle to malfunction in dangerous fashion.
I think the semis accuracy in Ost is spot on, although a confirmation from a great survey of War 2 rifles is needed to get it more in line with reality, keeping in mind modern collector's rifles are generally of collector grade and thus are cleaned very well, and that they are all often subject to some serious abuse being manufactured at a time when ammunition quality was poor and they endured, certainly, a great deal of stress and wear.
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I personally do feel that MG's should get a better supression system, and that SMGs should be more capable at range (not so much in accuracy, but primarily recoil especially when rested).
And mind you i'm primarily a rifle user. The hipshooting issue is due to a reset bug that nullifies the free aim system. So i think if that bug is not there in ostfront then that issue is gone.
I don't think that bolt weaponry is too powerful, but I do think that at times its relatively too powerful.
And mind you i'm primarily a rifle user. The hipshooting issue is due to a reset bug that nullifies the free aim system. So i think if that bug is not there in ostfront then that issue is gone.
I don't think that bolt weaponry is too powerful, but I do think that at times its relatively too powerful.
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I do think that the reset bug needs to go. The reset bug both happens in ironsight mode, when frankly it's not that useful for hipshooting (might as well stay in sight mode), and when out of sprint (when it is very useful).
The spring bug I'm worried about being carried over to HoS because it will be a similar mechanic, but I think the free aim in sights will nullify the reset from sights.
I think SMGs should be only as controllable as they are in real life, but I have heard that the PPSH-41's recoil is overstated in Ost. As long as the developers take into consideration the fact that you can compensate for recoil with the mouse, I think a reduction in recoil is not out of line.
As far as suppression, bullet snap (DH or Insurgency style) and possibly blur (more intense than Ost) definitely should be implemented, I disagree with a DH-style spaz-flinch system.
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Supression should be controllable, which is what I dislike about the DH system, but it should have a bigger impact on players than currently in ROOST imo.
As especially when fighting against mg's even when blurred, I can clearly see the trajectory and origin of tracers, and with that kill the mg while he's firing directly at me.
Regarding weaponry, what I want as well is that weapons behave as much as possible like their realistic counterparts. As the armies issued both rifles and smgs, they should be able to naturally complement each other and be balanced.
As especially when fighting against mg's even when blurred, I can clearly see the trajectory and origin of tracers, and with that kill the mg while he's firing directly at me.
Regarding weaponry, what I want as well is that weapons behave as much as possible like their realistic counterparts. As the armies issued both rifles and smgs, they should be able to naturally complement each other and be balanced.
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Seems realistic to me.
Was reading an article a while back in which a USMC desginated marksmen was able to return fire, even if the open while enemy bullets were nearly hitting him.
He killed 17 or so enemies.
Suppression works in RO just fine.
In DH, suppression is a "realism" gimmick.
SMG recoil needs to be tamed down, at least for the PPSH-41.
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Napoleon always finds the best vids!
Does RO has a suppression system? Cant remeber, been a while since I played the game.
I dont know DH, is it similar to the supression like in INSURGENCY (HL2 mod)?
As I dont know DH, I cant argue with you, but some kind of realism effect (you call it a gimmick) is needed,
to simulate the "fear of death" a real soldier would have. In real life you cant respawn after you are killed...
Does RO has a suppression system? Cant remeber, been a while since I played the game.
I dont know DH, is it similar to the supression like in INSURGENCY (HL2 mod)?
As I dont know DH, I cant argue with you, but some kind of realism effect (you call it a gimmick) is needed,
to simulate the "fear of death" a real soldier would have. In real life you cant respawn after you are killed...
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Instead of an insult, why don't you tell me which part was wrong and why?
I'd be more inclined to believe you when you say this.
BTW, since you asked so nicely, no, I'm not new.
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197972265328/games
I have nearly 600 hours logged into Ost Front alone.
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As I dont know DH, I cant argue with you, but some kind of realism effect (you call it a gimmick) is needed,
to simulate the "fear of death" a real soldier would have. In real life you cant respawn after you are killed...
We already have a good suppression system in Ost. Don't fix what isn't broken, IMO.
INS mod's suppression was good in the beginning. Then they changed it to where you look up at the sky if a pistol round goes by you, or if you shoot a shot into the ground.
And they kept changing it. I have not played it for a long time, so I am not sure how it is now...
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The reason why I personally want a better/stronger suppression system, is because I've never felt suppressed in the game when being shot at. When I'm shot at by an mg the first thing I do is fire back at the source of the tracers, rather than hit the dirt.
And that is my main issue all that happens when getting shot is that the image blurs, meaning that if you remembered the position of the mg you can put a bullet in his head. And even when the scenery is heavily blurred you can still clearly see where the tracers of an mg are coming from and put a bullet into someone's head.
Artillery blurs are a lot heavier than bullet blurs generally making it that I completely can't hit **** when arty is falling on me, although I can still hit MG's that are firing at that moment due to their tracers.
So for me what I think would be a better solution, than just blurring is moving around the screen a little more like sway. Not jerking your screen all around, but similar to basically aiming your weapon while standing for a few seconds when the sway kicks in so you can control it although it simply gets harder to hit. (Although rather than moving the gun pretty much move your sight around the free aim zone). And next to that during day light perhaps making tracers less prominent.
There are no perfect systems out there for suppression, and I don't want a system where when being shot at you cannot do anything any more. But the effect of suppression was the basis of the core of many tactics back in the military during WW2 and probably still is today.
Take a look at the clanning scene of red orchestra for example, in clanning clans try to find what methods work the best while playing as a team to win a map (whether its realistic or not). I've never seen clans base any tactics upon the effect of suppression in the past 5.5 years I've been active in the RO clanning community, which shows to me that suppression simply isn't an effective tactic to use in game.
And that difference in effectiveness between what tactics work in real life and what tactics work in games, is something I would prefer to see made smaller in ROHOS. And suppression plays a major role in that.
If the same things work badly in game that work badly in real-life, and if the same things that work well in real-life work well in the game. Then all players trying to become good will automatically end up playing similar to how people would react in real-life.
And that is my main issue all that happens when getting shot is that the image blurs, meaning that if you remembered the position of the mg you can put a bullet in his head. And even when the scenery is heavily blurred you can still clearly see where the tracers of an mg are coming from and put a bullet into someone's head.
Artillery blurs are a lot heavier than bullet blurs generally making it that I completely can't hit **** when arty is falling on me, although I can still hit MG's that are firing at that moment due to their tracers.
So for me what I think would be a better solution, than just blurring is moving around the screen a little more like sway. Not jerking your screen all around, but similar to basically aiming your weapon while standing for a few seconds when the sway kicks in so you can control it although it simply gets harder to hit. (Although rather than moving the gun pretty much move your sight around the free aim zone). And next to that during day light perhaps making tracers less prominent.
There are no perfect systems out there for suppression, and I don't want a system where when being shot at you cannot do anything any more. But the effect of suppression was the basis of the core of many tactics back in the military during WW2 and probably still is today.
Take a look at the clanning scene of red orchestra for example, in clanning clans try to find what methods work the best while playing as a team to win a map (whether its realistic or not). I've never seen clans base any tactics upon the effect of suppression in the past 5.5 years I've been active in the RO clanning community, which shows to me that suppression simply isn't an effective tactic to use in game.
And that difference in effectiveness between what tactics work in real life and what tactics work in games, is something I would prefer to see made smaller in ROHOS. And suppression plays a major role in that.
If the same things work badly in game that work badly in real-life, and if the same things that work well in real-life work well in the game. Then all players trying to become good will automatically end up playing similar to how people would react in real-life.
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