Upgrading the PPSh-41
- Thread starter Grobut
- Start date
I dont understand why youre not able to use full-auto or semi-auto when the selector switch is RIGHT ON THE GUN.
Imo just have 2-3 drum mags for level one, and for level 2 allow 1 drum mag and 6-8 box magazines
Imo just have 2-3 drum mags for level one, and for level 2 allow 1 drum mag and 6-8 box magazines
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Wait.. then why didn't you make a thread about it!?
*Le sigh*, i just know John, Alan or one of the other guys are going to come and be all grumpy at me again, why do i allways have to be the bad guy?
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I agree with this, ppsh box magazines REALLY aren't needed in the game. I just hope that it doesn't take long for you to get a drum mag so you don't see everyone running around with box mags.
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Well so far you have made good points in a respectful manner, with supporting evidence for your statements, and you have even suggested possible solutions.Wait.. then why didn't you make a thread about it!?
*Le sigh*, i just know John, Alan or one of the other guys are going to come and be all grumpy at me again, why do i allways have to be the bad guy?
On top of that, you have alot of supporters, including me.
So if a dev does go after you, it's not like it was because you were trying to start a flame war, or that it's only targeted at you.
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Thought about it, but really happy I didn't since you did such an excellent job.
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Completely agree with the OP here, I like it when people speak out about their grievances because sometimes Its exactly what I want to say.
Sturm.
Sturm.
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I guess I'm the only one who understands why they would want to withhold use of a weapon's features until you're more "experienced" with that weapon.
New recruits might not be totally comfortable with a weapon's features or find uses for them like a veteran would. New recruits should have to learn their weapon and how to manage ammo early on.
Does that mean everyone should have to do this at first? No, probably not. But this is a decent way to offer some sort of upgrade reward for ranking up while also trying to use realism to justify it.
Make the PPSH 41 the earlier model and include fire selection from the start? Sure, that's fine. Just remember though that there was a thread a while back full of people wanting exactly the magazine upgrade system they implemented. Start with box mags, move up to drums.
New recruits might not be totally comfortable with a weapon's features or find uses for them like a veteran would. New recruits should have to learn their weapon and how to manage ammo early on.
Does that mean everyone should have to do this at first? No, probably not. But this is a decent way to offer some sort of upgrade reward for ranking up while also trying to use realism to justify it.
Make the PPSH 41 the earlier model and include fire selection from the start? Sure, that's fine. Just remember though that there was a thread a while back full of people wanting exactly the magazine upgrade system they implemented. Start with box mags, move up to drums.
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... or how about one drum and a few box mags? Or a choice of either box or drums. Model the difference between the two - mags = quicker reloading, drums = longer reloads but less frequent reloading. At least it would be realistic and different from the same old "upgrade to higher capacity mags" that CoD and many other games have been doing for years.
And as I understand it, you can't use box mags with the PPSH-41 that has the semi auto mode. That is pretty lame. The most disappointing part of this is the fact that you can't use mags and drums at the sametime.
And yes, it has been done before. There was a mod called Infiltration - it did this with the M249. It animated the different reload animations for both the magazine and the belt. In addition to that, they modeled the rate of fire increase when the M249 had the magazine rather than the belt, and there was no disintegrating belt parts flying out of the gun. I don't see why RO2, a 2011 game with goals of being unique from the other FPS games, can't feature drums and mags usable in one gun at the sametime.
*If you can use drums and mags at the sametime in RO2, ignore that part of my post.
Might as well lock the sniper/MG class until players have killed X amount of players, or played X amount of time. The whole "inexperienced players should get crappy weapons" is a very odd concept. It makes it even harder for them to get up to speed.
As I see it, unlocks are just a gimmick for game developers to get you to buy the game day 1 so you are not lagging behind and disadvantaged with inferior weapons. Thankfully, the differences in RO2 don't seem that huge.
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You're jumping the gun here (no pun intended) just like most of the replies in this thread.
What should they do? Just give you the gun with all the bells and whistles?
Alright, so what happens to rank progression?
Don't get me wrong I never wanted stuff like this either but if this is the way they're doing it, you have to see the reasoning behind it. Nobody has said you can't use either magazine at the same time yet, and it stands to reason that someone would come across both types if they're available to pick up from the ground.
Who would use stick mags when drums are available to them? What happened to the loads of people who wanted stick mags in the first place? I wish I could find the thread because it was quite comprehensive.
What should they do? Just give you the gun with all the bells and whistles?
Alright, so what happens to rank progression?
Don't get me wrong I never wanted stuff like this either but if this is the way they're doing it, you have to see the reasoning behind it. Nobody has said you can't use either magazine at the same time yet, and it stands to reason that someone would come across both types if they're available to pick up from the ground.
Who would use stick mags when drums are available to them? What happened to the loads of people who wanted stick mags in the first place? I wish I could find the thread because it was quite comprehensive.
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The OP already posted everything we can say about it, so I will not add very much.
Maybe you can remember BC2 with the rewards for certain guns which granted 'balance' and 'stability'. I don't play it anymore, but when I stopped nobody still knew if they actually worked. I think TWI have to do slight accuracy benefits and recoil dampening effects like this (Of course no CoD benefits so you shoot lasers). See my BC2 example, even the placebo effect is enough (ppl used them but they didn't knew if it benefitted them).
Keeps every1 happy also us knowing the PPsH41 had a fire selector anyways.
Personally I think a ranking system won't need upgrades at all (I won't get better shoes if my soccer team is at rank 3
), but if you implement rewards then make them very slight and keep the realism for the ones who don't care about the ranking.
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+1 for the OP. good thread, exellent research!!!
The question for me is: why do we need balanced smgs anyway???
In RO1 the "unbalanced" weapons worked well, too!
And on the realism mode HOS should really have the PPSh with drum mag!
realism mode should be realistic, right?
The question for me is: why do we need balanced smgs anyway???
In RO1 the "unbalanced" weapons worked well, too!
And on the realism mode HOS should really have the PPSh with drum mag!
realism mode should be realistic, right?
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How does forcing new players to learn things under difficult circumstances, by withholding tools they should have had, jive with HoS's goals of beeing more accessible? Wasen't that a pretty big deal about HoS? To preserve the realism and grit, but to overcome the learning curve of the first game that was so problematic?
And what about the issues i raised about Team-balance, and what will happen on servers that disable ranking? how do you make it work with that so it both pleases the competitive, realism and the casual minded players?
And what about the questions i raised about the percived value of thease unlocks, really, why is "earning" semi-auto supposed to be a goal for us after we've allready unlocked drums to make it unimportant? Isen't it just an unlock for an unlock's sake at that point?
I made 2 suggestions in the first post for how it could be changed, so it still has 3 levels to unlock, but which still preserves Team-balance and realism, and adds even more percived value to the class at Lvl-3 within realistic constraints.
Did you not read the whole post? I actually made a valient effort to give it all some meaning..
This was covered in the first post..
We don't want Sticks taken away, we just want the correct loadout for the gun, which consisted of 1 (one) Drum, and about 6 (six) sticks.
We would also like to keep that option, even after you unlock the abillity to chose only drums, it would be cool if you could still use the origional loadout if you so desire, instead of beeing forced to upgrade.
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That you did.
All I'm doing is trying to bring to light some justification for the system in place.
If that rubs some people the wrong way then I can't help that. I just think it's wrong to so viciously attack something we still really know very little about, especially without considering the reasoning behind it first.
Someone has to ask these questions so we're sure of what we're against.
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One of the reasons I like this thread is that it isn't speculative -- it is addressed at concerns over a feature's implementation that we know is in the game.
Grobut's post sums up my thoughts exactly and I really hope the devs listen. This isn't about rivet counting at all -- it's a more fundamental concern regarding the implementation of features that conflict in a big way with RO's concern with historical accuracy.
The other beautiful thing about this problem is that it could be easily solved, just by switching around the ways in which the PPSH's (or any other weapon) upgrades are implemented. Why not give us the round drum mag first (since that is HOW IT WAS) and later give us the option of stick mags, which might offer a faster reload or simply a different tactical option for players? Either way, it's a reward, AND it's most historically accurate.
I have said this before and I will say it again: These kinds of ranking systems offer opportunities for the game to reward players by giving them more gameplay VARIETY. It's not about X gun is better than Y gun, and so you'll get X gun when you reach a certain level, or that X magazine is better than Y magazine, so you'll get X when you reach a certain level. Rather, it's more like X magazine is different than Y magazine, and offers different gameplay possibilities, so we're going to give you the added OPTION to use X magazine to broaden your capabilities as a soldier.
When features are added with this mindset, it doesn't really make a difference in what order they are given to the player, because they are simply treated like more tools that the player has in his tool chest. This allows you to add in the features in a way that both adds to gameplay AND keeps the integrity of historical accuracy.
Does this make any sense?
Grobut's post sums up my thoughts exactly and I really hope the devs listen. This isn't about rivet counting at all -- it's a more fundamental concern regarding the implementation of features that conflict in a big way with RO's concern with historical accuracy.
The other beautiful thing about this problem is that it could be easily solved, just by switching around the ways in which the PPSH's (or any other weapon) upgrades are implemented. Why not give us the round drum mag first (since that is HOW IT WAS) and later give us the option of stick mags, which might offer a faster reload or simply a different tactical option for players? Either way, it's a reward, AND it's most historically accurate.
I have said this before and I will say it again: These kinds of ranking systems offer opportunities for the game to reward players by giving them more gameplay VARIETY. It's not about X gun is better than Y gun, and so you'll get X gun when you reach a certain level, or that X magazine is better than Y magazine, so you'll get X when you reach a certain level. Rather, it's more like X magazine is different than Y magazine, and offers different gameplay possibilities, so we're going to give you the added OPTION to use X magazine to broaden your capabilities as a soldier.
When features are added with this mindset, it doesn't really make a difference in what order they are given to the player, because they are simply treated like more tools that the player has in his tool chest. This allows you to add in the features in a way that both adds to gameplay AND keeps the integrity of historical accuracy.
Does this make any sense?
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Grobut wasn't "viciously attacking" the feature. He provided a well thought out and researched post/thread as well as suggestions that would fit into the current system. Is questioning the features in RO2 considered bad now?
Historical accurac, sometimes has to be ignored for gameplay sake in a game like RO2. But when there seem to be logical and more accurate alternative (Grobut's OP) it is ignored. Very awkward indeed.
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Grobut wasn't "viciously attacking" the feature. He provided a well thought out and researched post/thread as well as suggestions that would fit into the current system. Is questioning the features in RO2 considered bad now?
I say that because of the wave of unquestioning agreements following the post as well.
I'm not saying I disagree with Grobut. I'm just saying there's probably a reason things are they way they are, and we should consider that before blowing up and making massive posts about things the devs might have already thought about.
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