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TWI, playable zeds needs to wait

How about NS2 then?

That's a fine example of a game that isn't l4d, and a good representation of asymmetrical pvp fps. It can be done well

Are you saying that KF2 is now a asymmetrical PvP game like NS2 or Nosgoth? You're talking about a great asymmetrical PvP game that is PvP to begin with. Those games are completely balanced around asymmetrical PvP gameplay, no PvE involved, never will. From what I heard, KF2 is still a coop PvE game...
 
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I'm guessing you're talking about the game conductor. I'm not sure it's supposed to work for PvP, they only mentioned it for PvE.

Not game conductor. Let me quote a few lines from Destructoid's web site about the upcoming kf2 content: "As far as balance goes, a new analytical system is being implemented so the team can more easily tweak weapon damages and Zed resistances without making huge patches."

This sounds like balance will be easier to do pvp/pve wise.

Source: http://www.destructoid.com/new-pvp-...rk-are-coming-to-killing-floor-2-337498.phtml

Since the announcement of PvP, the only thing I hear is "look at L4D!". Since when did L4D become the absolute reference? It's really not a good example and certainly not a reference. I always considered KF1 vastly superior to Valve's title, and I definitely don't want KF2 to be inspired by L4D. "valve created a PvP mode" has nothing to do with what TWI should or should not be doing

Completely different games, not sure why everybody tries to compare them. This also happened when kf1 was released.
 
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I'm guessing you're talking about the game conductor. I'm not sure it's supposed to work for PvP, they only mentioned it for PvE.



Since the announcement of PvP, the only thing I hear is "look at L4D!". Since when did L4D become the absolute reference? It's really not a good example and certainly not a reference. I always considered KF1 vastly superior to Valve's title, and I definitely don't want KF2 to be inspired by L4D. "valve created a PvP mode" has nothing to do with what TWI should or should not be doing

L4D Versus was amazing fun. That's probably why.

You may not have enjoyed it but a whole lot of other people did. So no, TWI shouldn't make design decisions just because Valve did something. But I don't think anyone said that. They just said that Versus was a brilliant design concept and it was very well balanced, despite the obvious asymmetrical design.

And, TWI are hardly new to asymmetric PvP, are they?

However, they will need to pull out their very best asymmetrical design stops here, there's no question of that. First, L4D Versus is inherently balanced for PvP because both teams take turns to play survivors. I've not played it for years but I recall that, unless you modified the server, survivors had it much easier in Versus than Infected. In general, Survivors were expected to survive and it just came down to who did it better. That did change with L4D2 (it was much tougher to survive in those maps, at least initially). But my point is, L4D Versus needed tweaking but was still always, at its base, balanced. The tweaking just made it more fun. But it was never asymmetrical, because everyone got to pay survivors and infected.

TWI don't appear to be using the same approach. They're going full on asymmetrical. This will present more issues (one major one being no one will want to pay survivors, particularly to begin with). The other being getting the balance right. The interesting thing is, Valve couldn't do it. L4D Versus wasn't the first design, it was originally going to be Coop but where players controlled the Infected. Valve felt it wasn't fun so they created Versus instead.

TWI managed it with RO:RS. Although some maps were really not balanced (a problem with any team based shooter, mind).

It'll be a bigger challenge here though. But the only thing that matters is if people want it. You apparently don't. And that's fine. But you can't just proclaim the game doesn't need it because you don't like it and then claim the game's development will negatively impact you because of it.

It's happening. People obviously want it. I doubt there will be any impact on weapons in Survival. And whatever impact there is on development time is worth it if it is played by people.

This isn't the first time a developer received negative feedback for daring to introduce something totally new instead of focusing 100% on bugs and expanding what we already have. That's because some people think the game should be designed the way only they want.
 
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Not game conductor. Let me quote a few lines from Destructoid's web site about the upcoming kf2 content: "As far as balance goes, a new analytical system is being implemented so the team can more easily tweak weapon damages and Zed resistances without making huge patches."

This sounds like balance will be easier to do pvp/pve wise.

Source: http://www.destructoid.com/new-pvp-...rk-are-coming-to-killing-floor-2-337498.phtml

Mmmh... That's confusing, it sounds a lot like the game conductor, and I'm pretty sure they're talking about general balance and not only PvP balance. Hence the game conductor.

@Ydiss :

You're talking about how this asymmetrical PvP mode can turn out to be great. But you also admit this will require a lot of effort to make it enjoyable. You're just confirming what I'm saying and what I fear ! Games like NS2 or Nosgoth (only real asymmetrical PvP games I've played so far) get all their development time dedicated to the balancing of this particular asymmetrical experience, to make them fun, balanced and yet, competitive. I think that's hard enough on it's own.

I didn't say PvP is inherently BAD, and I don't think they should NEVER implement PvP. But it feels like this was needed for some reasons. Like if PvP was the almighty road for every game nowadays. I'm still waiting for the fun and balanced successor to KF1 I was promised. I didn't backup KF2 in early access to get PvP before the PvE part is even finished. That makes no sense to me.
 
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Mmmh... That's confusing, it sounds a lot like the game conductor, and I'm pretty sure they're talking about general balance and not only PvP balance. Hence the game conductor.

@Ydiss :

You're talking about how this asymmetrical PvP mode can turn out to be great. But you also admit this will require a lot of effort to make it enjoyable. You're just confirming what I'm saying and what I fear ! Games like NS2 or Nosgoth (only real asymmetrical PvP games I've played so far) get all their development time dedicated to the balancing of this particular asymmetrical experience, to make them fun, balanced and yet, competitive. I think that's hard enough on it's own.

I didn't say PvP is inherently BAD, and I don't think they should NEVER implement PvP. But it feels like this was needed for some reasons. Like if PvP was the almighty road for every game nowadays. I'm still waiting for the fun and balanced successor to KF1 I was promised. I didn't backup KF2 in early access to get PvP before the PvE part is even finished. That makes no sense to me.

I was offering a more balanced view on it, really. But my main points, the bit of my post that is most important in my opinion, are that the effort is worth it if people play it (yet to be determined) and your personal requirements (no pvp mode until they've finished the game) aren't necessarily an indication that versus will negatively impact the development of the game you want developed.

I've seen many developers do this (introduce something new before the game is perceived as "finished") and in none of the negative comments relating to the impact on development time has anyone proved the development is negatively impacted.

The only way you can say this for certain is if the game is developed by one person.

At any rate, I still refer back to my first point. Even if versus requires development time away from survival, if it results in a better game overall (more players) and doesn't significantly fragment the player base (which can happen with too many modes), the disgruntled few who aren't happy the game is developed on their terms is a small price to pay.

The minor point of my post was just saying if anyone can do asymmetrical, it's TWI.
 
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I was offering a more balanced view on it, really. But my main points, the bit of my post that is most important in my opinion, are that the effort is worth it if people play it (yet to be determined) and your personal requirements (no pvp mode until they've finished the game) aren't necessarily an indication that versus will negatively impact the development of the game you want developed.

I've seen many developers do this (introduce something new before the game is perceived as "finished") and in none of the negative comments relating to the impact on development time has anyone proved the development is negatively impacted.

The only way you can say this for certain is if the game is developed by one person.

At any rate, I still refer back to my first point. Even if versus requires development time away from survival, if it results in a better game overall (more players) and doesn't significantly fragment the player base (which can happen with too many modes), the disgruntled few who aren't happy the game is developed on their terms is a small price to pay.

The minor point of my post was just saying if anyone can do asymmetrical, it's TWI.

And maybe you're right ! I didn't say they can't pull it off, but if they want a great PvP game with Zeds vs Humans, they should have made it a standalone game and not cut back on the development of KF2. And by the way, you assume that it won't impact the game development the same way I assume it will. Soooo :p
Of course we can't prove it, but I'm still failing to see how an entire new game mode that needs as much tweaking and balancing as the main PvE mode cannot impact the development of the game at all. It's a silly statement IMO.

And I think that's our our main disagreement is the fact that for me, spending time on PvP instead of PvE during EA is not a priority at all. It's like whatever TWI will produce that is remotely KF-related, it won't be a waste of resources "because more content". The game is not even out with full PvE experience yet and everyone is acting like it already needs some refreshment and new things to get people hooked... That's not a good sign :(
 
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Mmmh... That's confusing, it sounds a lot like the game conductor, and I'm pretty sure they're talking about general balance and not only PvP balance. Hence the game conductor.

@Ydiss :

You're talking about how this asymmetrical PvP mode can turn out to be great. But you also admit this will require a lot of effort to make it enjoyable. You're just confirming what I'm saying and what I fear ! Games like NS2 or Nosgoth (only real asymmetrical PvP games I've played so far) get all their development time dedicated to the balancing of this particular asymmetrical experience, to make them fun, balanced and yet, competitive. I think that's hard enough on it's own.

I didn't say PvP is inherently BAD, and I don't think they should NEVER implement PvP. But it feels like this was needed for some reasons. Like if PvP was the almighty road for every game nowadays. I'm still waiting for the fun and balanced successor to KF1 I was promised. I didn't backup KF2 in early access to get PvP before the PvE part is even finished. That makes no sense to me.

This was taken from the last WWAUT:

"New Map - Prison
Live Update - The ability for us to update balance without shipping a client or server update
Game Conductor - Dynamic difficulty system that will allow the game to tune the fight to the players"

Of course this will take it's time. KF1 (1.0) shipped with only 7 maps, 7 perks, something like 20 weapons in total, no husk, no females characters, lots of bugs and balance problems. It took a really long time to have it balanced (kind of).

KF2 is in beta state and we already have much more content, and still more to come. It's a bigger project than the latter, A LOT BIGGER, so devs will need time and our feedback.

In the end it's a matter of preference, some would like to have all perks first, others (like me) will prefer other types of content (like new game modes, in this case).
 
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just because the content is almost complete (its actually not but okay) it doesnt mean the work is done there.
You forgot the balance, one of the huge problems in this game atm. This takes a lot of time. What you think will Vs mode will be? more balanced than PVE? I dont think so.
Now the devs have to deal with 1 big issue seperated to 2 gamemodes. It will be a pain for us all.

I have to side with the op on this a little. Like FoolishNinja said too... Balance.
I'm not excited to see a new game mode. I think it will be really awesome, but I'm concerned at the time it will take to do this.

Full game was scheduled for release just around the corner, but I don't see that happening. Let's look at the history of big content updates here. Every time they release a new perk it's taken months to balance and rebalance everything. I mean look at how many times everything has changed. They are still rebalancing content. Berserker has been buffed and nerfed so many times along with all other classes. If they add a new game mode then ( I'm just speculating here) but it will probably take months of observing and tweaking everything to get it feeling right. Plus they still have the new perks to implement and then test and balance that out.
This is all good and needed, but the current content is still being reworked and tweaked. So my only concern is how much longer it will take to add all this new stuff. It seems like people are forgetting that they don't just add new content and then it's all golden from there, but it's been a few months since incinerate n detonate came out, and no sharpshooter yet, and they still have 2 more classes to add after that along with all their weapons, animations and balancing. Remember the post that was put up last year about how long of a process it is to add new content?
Like I said, this vs mode sounds very exciting, but I wouldn't mind if they held off until the remaining classes were completed first.
 
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Don't forget TWI have asymmetrical PvP experience, and made good stuff at that. Rising Storm! Possibly RS2 as well, they are not fresh eyed babes to the field.

I personally think it's a good idea, modes like this have always been great fun! Not like it's going to detract from anything.

It'd also create a much more consistent environment for creating this mystical balance everyone wants, which I believe could possibly make it easier to balance stuff for the whole game.
 
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The main focus (completing the perks and balance) is still getting done on time. This is most likely done by devs who have already completed their part, or by devs on their spare time.


It's easy to do sth on time if there is no deadline... Adding a vastly different game mode is definitely going to push the day on which all the perks are polished and the balance is in a desirable shape back.
 
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Another thing worth remembering is that not having a solid release date is definitely a good thing. Self published title, no EA or Activision type character to demand things and times etc? This is what we want! The developers had a radical idea and have the freedom to put it in, they're giving a new cool theory a chance. I for one will definitely not tell them they shouldn't or can't!

I've hated dominating publishers for a while, no way I'm gonna be like one here!
 
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Of course this will take it's time. KF1 (1.0) shipped with only 7 maps, 7 perks, something like 20 weapons in total, no husk, no females characters, lots of bugs and balance problems. It took a really long time to have it balanced (kind of).

Actually, KF1 had 1 gamemode, 5 maps, 4 difficulties, 6 perks, 6 near identical characters, 11 buyable weapons total, and 9 zeds when it first came out.


Early Acces KF2 had 1 gamemode, 3 maps, 4 difficulties, 4 perks, 8 characters, 18 buyable weapons, and 12 zeds when you could first buy it.

From what is seems, this new gamemode has been in the works for a bit now, and you can expect content to come out just as slow as it has been. So, if the perks are coming out at the same rate and the maps will too, along with the buffing and nerfing of everything, all the while working on the new gamemode, tweaking it as the changes come out in PVE, there will be no reason to whine. Why wait until after the game is finished? We are promised another boss, another zed, three more perks released, at least four more gamemodes, not to mention the indeterminate amount of weapons, maps, and characters they said they will keep releasing. The game is a long way from being finished and this is only a small blip in the grand scheme of things. Calm yourselves and play some KF1 while it still has more content than KF2.
 
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At this point it's one of those cases where from the look of it, it's already done whether i wanted it or not.

If it was early on and they said "Hey, would you rather have a vs mode with playable zeds or x, y and z" i would have voted for the latter.

Would have i liked to have the full sharpshooter out instead of a somewhat tacked on mode with only two of the weapons? Yeah. Would have they had sharpshooter out if they didn't work on the other mode? Doubt it since it's different people working on different stuff but at the same time the less manpower didn't help.

Telling them to stop work on it now is a case of too little, too late. I guess ill enjoy it a little and play at least a game or two and hey, maybe i will end up really enjoying it, maybe ill still not like it, maybe it will make me start playing more often but telling them to just trash what they have is for one not going to happen and for two would waste even more time then just finishing it out and releasing it.

It's not what i would have picked to have done but then again it's not my game and im not in charge of the design path.
 
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People say there are different teams working on different things, the devs working on this are not working on perks or whatever, so this isn't detracting from perks or maps or balance. I say this is a small dev team and often its not just one team that "isn't busy" working on this, it requires things from the whole team, programming, balance, design etc. This is nonsense that is slowing development, I do not think this can be disputed. The focus should be on the core game, perks, maps, balance, the friggen linux server FFS.

This game has so many issues without introducing a completely different game mode which will introduce many of its own issues, unless no one plays it thus no one complains and all work ceases on it, in which case it was a waste of time, or new players come in to play this new mode and are disillusioned because it sucks and leave. I guess it will have served its purposed, bring in revenue, but that is some short term small ball TWI.

TWI should be working to make the best KF2 they can so they can have a solid launch, they should make the best core game they can. Add this silly crap later. After people are hooked on an amazing KF2, release this as a free expansion with a bunch of hype to bring new players into a hopefully thriving Killing Floor...2.
 
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People say there are different teams working on different things, the devs working on this are not working on perks or whatever, so this isn't detracting from perks or maps or balance. I say this is a small dev team and often its not just one team that "isn't busy" working on this, it requires things from the whole team, programming, balance, design etc. This is nonsense that is slowing development, I do not think this can be disputed. The focus should be on the core game, perks, maps, balance, the friggen linux server FFS.

This game has so many issues without introducing a completely different game mode which will introduce many of its own issues, unless no one plays it thus no one complains and all work ceases on it, in which case it was a waste of time, or new players come in to play this new mode and are disillusioned because it sucks and leave. I guess it will have served its purposed, bring in revenue, but that is some short term small ball TWI.

TWI should be working to make the best KF2 they can so they can have a solid launch, they should make the best core game they can. Add this silly crap later. After people are hooked on an amazing KF2, release this as a free expansion with a bunch of hype to bring new players into a hopefully thriving Killing Floor...2.

And this falls on deaf ears. Been read too many times. I see that on the steam comments every time.

Lurking in here I gathered a couple of things on what they have been working on in the past few months.

Port for the PS4
Perk construction of Sharpshooter
Bugs
Map building
Weapon rendering
Vs Mode
 
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