This is what I hate about the UT2k4 Engine

[mbrooksay]

Battlefield 2 is actually a terrible example of how to make netcode. If you set the latencycompensation wrong compared to your latency you sometimes have to aim behind the target you see in order to hit the hitbox. There are so many flaws in the Battlefield 2 netcode it's not even funny. I won't even mention all the crap you can do by messing around with the interpolation settings.

That's cool, but none of what you said matters. The ballistics in PRMM are much more responsive and a helluva lot less laggy than RO's.

I really don't know why people are debating this. Go play a game of RO and you'll know what we are all talking about.

There is absolutely no reason why I should have to lead someone with a rifle who is 5 feet or less away, unless there at a full sprint, then maybe a little...

 

[sandorski]

That's cool, but none of what you said matters. The ballistics in PRMM are much more responsive and a helluva lot less laggy than RO's.

I really don't know why people are debating this. Go play a game of RO and you'll know what we are all talking about.

There is absolutely no reason why I should have to lead someone with a rifle who is 5 feet or less away, unless there at a full sprint, then maybe a little...

The reason is Internet Lag.

 

[Dokteur Kill]

That's cool, but none of what you said matters. The ballistics in PRMM are much more responsive and a helluva lot less laggy than RO's.

No. They're not. You're led to believe it by the Battlefield 2 engine's latency compensation. But all that really does is make an uneducated guess at where the serverside hitbox is compared to the client side model based on an arbitrary default latency value. If you're interested, the default value is 100 milliseconds. But you can adjust it ingame if you want to - the console command is "SettingsManager.floatSet GSDefaultLatencyCompensation x.xxx" where "x.xxx" is your desired compensation in seconds. So if you have an average of 50 ms latency, you'll want to set it to 0.05...

The problem with this approach is that it only works if the default latency compensation is set correctly, and even then it can only predict linear movement, so if your opponent is moving erratically (say, pronespamming) it makes it almost impossible to hit him because your view of the opponent will be completely messed up compared to his state on the server.

It also means that with the default value of 100 ms, if you have a decent latency then you'll actually notice that the hitbox is lagging behind the visible object you're shooting at. You don't notice it much with infantry, but with helicopters and jets it is noticeable. You actually have to aim a few meters behind the aircraft to hit it. If you have a stable latency and mess with the default latency compensation then that helps, but it's still not a very good solution.

No, there is no physical real world reason why you have to aim in front of a guy at 5 meters. But in order to get the game to perform the way you want it to, you'll have to use client side hit detection, and that makes the game terribly easy to hack. So what do you prefer: an RO where you have to take latency into account? Or an RO where there are more hacks and aimbots than in Counter Strike and Quake combined?

I really don't know why people are debating this. Go play a game of RO and you'll know what we are all talking about.

I'm debating this because I know a bit about how different netcodes work, and what the advantages and disadvantages of each approach is. And I know that even while it may not feel quite realistic, the unreal netcode is far better technically than most others out there. It is less susceptible to hacking and more stable than most other online shooters in existence.

 

[[TW]Ramm-Jaeger]

You should never have to lead someone to compensate for lag in RO unless your REALLY lagging (> 200 ms ping, etc). The Unreal Engine also does client side player movement prediction, so unless someone is moving highly erratically (and the RO Player physics generally prevent this) the engine predicts on the clients where the the other players will be on the server when your packets get there. Even when someone is very far away (300 meters plus) and sprinting I've never had to lead someone more than 1 foot. All game engines have thier plusses and minuses, but of all the game engines I've seen and worked with, the way the Unreal net code works is by far my favorite.

 

[Tak]

I think what some people are talking about is more a 'time delay', rather than lag though. If you start up in practice mode, wait for all the bots to load and stuff, then look down and shoot, it takes a measurable (albiet tiny) amount of time for the bullet to go 'thump!' into the dirt. It seems like it should be a tad fast, near instant. I think it might be more related to CPU load or something related to other settings being to high, though, mebbie.
​

 

[mbrooksay]

Even when someone is very far away (300 meters plus) and sprinting I've never had to lead someone more than 1 foot.

Well, I'd love to play on your connection Ramm, because it doesn't work that way for me.

I've played your game a lot, and I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. I'll record a video of me playing a normal game of RO sometime just to show how much I need to lead people (for whatever reason). I'll let it be known I normally ping 80 and have zero packetloss--> always.

You even have to lead people with bayonets in this game, lol. I was in a Euro server today as well, pinging 160, and it took about a third to half a second for my bullets to hit the ground, no packetloss, either.

And to the guy who knows a whole lot about netcode, whatever the hell you said is probably right, I'm not doubting that, but it STILL doesn't change the fact that a lot of RO players are leading people a lot more then they should be.

 

[Vader]

You should never have to lead someone to compensate for lag in RO unless your REALLY lagging (> 200 ms ping, etc).

Uh... you playing on a T5 or could you tell me what foreign servers you play? Or I take it you don't play RO much one?

 

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

I get 18 kbps, heavy packet loss, and I don't need to lead people hardly at all when up close.

Maybe |------| much.

 

[Zetsumei]

You should never have to lead someone to compensate for lag in RO unless your REALLY lagging (> 200 ms ping, etc). The Unreal Engine also does client side player movement prediction, so unless someone is moving highly erratically (and the RO Player physics generally prevent this) the engine predicts on the clients where the the other players will be on the server when your packets get there. Even when someone is very far away (300 meters plus) and sprinting I've never had to lead someone more than 1 foot. All game engines have thier plusses and minuses, but of all the game engines I've seen and worked with, the way the Unreal net code works is by far my favorite.

On an american server especially in close range combat i need to aim about a meter ahead of a running person thats 2 meters ahead of me (maybe a bit more or a bit less)...
In longer distance it remains about thesame 1 additional meter ahead of my targets, next to the bullet delay (which is nearly nothing anyway if you use a rifle) Like maybe its an engine thing but at long range when bots you don't have to lead at all (or about 30 centimeters max)(low velocity weapons and tanks are a different thing). But really while up to 200 ping you don't start warping usually (some overloaded servers is a different thing). You do have to compensate for a lag of 0.2 seconds.

So if that shouldn't happen then there must be something wrong somewhere, and i think most players will agree to that part. That there is a better system out somewhere i don't know, i like it as it is. But a high ping and a low ping means day and night to me atleast. There is a reason why americans that are used to play on servers all over the us have less problems with ping when playing on a european server than eurpeans on a usa server. euro guys aren't used to high ping while alot of americans are.

 

[Sgt.Rock]

I get 18 kbps, heavy packet loss, and I don't need to lead people hardly at all when up close.

Maybe |------| much.

You shouldnt even have to lead that much with targets up close.

Anything within 100m would need such a minimal lead that your iron sights would either be still on your target (if you want to hit him in the chest, your aiming a little farther to the side on his chest) or you have the sights just on the outside tip of his body (more or less).

 

[Dokteur Kill]

You even have to lead people with bayonets in this game, lol. I was in a Euro server today as well, pinging 160, and it took about a third to half a second for my bullets to hit the ground, no packetloss, either.

I'm sorry, but if you experience delays of half a second (500 milliseconds) between pulling the trigger and seeing the bullet impact, then there is something seriously wrong with your connection or the servers you play on, not the game. The only time I've had performance like that was some times with my old net provider, and then it was caused by some routing problems at their side giving me a minimum latency of around 400 milliseconds.

 

[Quenaelin]

Yesterday I was playing in one server with huge lag, maybe becouse my rig or server don't know exactly. But I couldn't not even shoot properly at close range, I was about 20-30 meters from enemy and shooted full clip SMG ammo from kneeled aimed position and didn't hit or only scratched enemy, he was right in my sights, though he was moving towards me. Soon after that I disconnected, for some reason there was huge unplayable lag which ruined my game. Maybe I should be leading more becouse lag, or maybe lag caused bullets to miss, he surely wasn't there where I was shooting? Fortunately this happens rarely, ping was quite good but maybe server wasn't good enough for all bullet calculations or I got CPU problems myself with that map. I was obviously lagger in that game.

 

[mbrooksay]

disregard. read below.

 

[mbrooksay]

I'm sorry, but if you experience delays of half a second (500 milliseconds) between pulling the trigger and seeing the bullet impact, then there is something seriously wrong with your connection or the servers you play on, not the game. The only time I've had performance like that was some times with my old net provider, and then it was caused by some routing problems at their side giving me a minimum latency of around 400 milliseconds.

Maybe I exaggerated a little bit, but waiting to see the bullet impact took way too long, that is my ultimate point. My connection is fine, and the server ran well. It's the game.

America's Army does the same thing, but you only notice it in when you're sniping usually. RO and AA use the same engine. You'd think people would catch on after a while about what a lot of people in this thread are trying to state.

In the end, you have to lead people an unrealistic amount. Ask any good rifleman player how much they lead people and they will tell you a couple feet, and that is way too much.

When I play with bots, I barely have to lead them at all and they drop like flies. This may or may not have anything to do with how they normally never sprint, while players online are usually sprinting their asses off if they are out in the open

 

[mbrooksay]

double post

 

[PUTZ]

I disagree, this is an Unreal Engine problem. Not an internet problem. Battlefield 2's PRMM mod has ballistics and they don't lag.

You're kidding right? There's absolutely no way that the internet CANT have a "say" in how the traffic that crosses it is handled...

The thing is, the bullet trajectory properties are client-side HARD CODED in, here, I'll even paste an example in here:

//=============================================================================
// Kar98Bullet
//=============================================================================
// Realistic bullets
//=============================================================================
// Red Orchestra Source
// Copyright (C) 2003-2004 Erik Christensen
//=============================================================================

class Kar98Bullet extends ROBullet;

//=============================================================================
// defaultproperties
//=============================================================================

defaultproperties
{
    BallisticCoefficient=0.390
    Damage=115
    MyDamageType=class'Kar98DamType'
    MyVehicleDamage=class'Kar98VehDamType'
    Speed=37808 // 2363 fps
}

???

This is also coming from someone who also plays PRMM...which, while has a different trajectory system AND engine, is susceptible to "lag" time created by either the server OR the internet.

 

[Zennousha]

I really don't see what a lot of you are talking about. I'm tending to think it's either your connection, or the distance between you and the server you're attempting to connect to. Almost all the servers I frequent, I notice no "bullet delay". If I shoot at the ground, I see it hit just as I hear the shot. If I'm aiming for someone a good distance who happens to be moving, I don't have to go in advance that much. Maybe a few pixels horizontally (not to mention vertically to compensate for the bullet drop). Nothing drastic though.

 

[extremepilot]

I think this has something to do with wireless connectivity... honestly...
And just wait untill I get my Fraps working... then you'll se exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

You shouldnt even have to lead that much with targets up close.

Anything within 100m would need such a minimal lead that your iron sights would either be still on your target (if you want to hit him in the chest, your aiming a little farther to the side on his chest) or you have the sights just on the outside tip of his body (more or less).

Re-read my post. I have to lead that much because my internet connection ****s.

 

[Athena]

Completely Agree with Zets and Brooks.

at a 120-140 ping you have to lead your shot on moving targets WAY too much. Even for bayo fights, you have to anticipate your stab and do it at least one full second earlier you'd do it on a 40-80 ping..