Tanks in ROHOS

[GfrSeifter]

when I see the survey, you have to put tanks in ROHOS
tank battles in stalingrad itself, not so much i guess, but there are some in the near area.
if u do so, pls look at realism. german tanks especially the tiger is too weak in RO (see other threads in RO1 forums)

 

[D3terioNation]

Yeh and they will be even weaker in Stalingrad1!

 

[PETERPANs]

Tiger tank is not for close combat, big disadvantage is not sloped but flat armor. Tiger is also slow, transmission is bad designed, due that tiger have higher profile and weight - more than russian heavy tanks which have transmission in back near engine. Due to that its hard to manufacture them in mass quantities.

In conclusion Tiger tank have very good cannon. Its good weapon for outrange fighting. T - 34 must go closer to Tiger due to accuracy and range. Russian flat steppes are ideal for Tiger. Turret of Tiger is also slow so its not best weapon for urban warfare.

Sturer Emil Tank-Hunter
I am not sure about any Tigers in stalingrad batlle, there was experimental self propelled guns but no Tigers I think. Only one gun of two called Moritz survived stalingrad battle, Max was destroyed. When Moritz was captured he got 22 rings painted on the barrel.

 

[Zetsumei]

There were actually some of the first tiger battalions used around stalingrad. And tbh i hope to see some tigers in the game purely for charismatic reasons. Although i dont think they participated in city fighting.

So a tank only map with tigers could be nice, a bit like bdj maybe :F

 

[eugen reinhard]

I don't see why there should be no tank's.In the area operated several German units that would have had tank's (24 Panzer Division,16 Panzer Division,244 and 245 Sturmgesch

 

[VariousNames]

I know very little about the order of events in WWII but I was watching a history channel doc on WWII and they spoke about Manstein and Hitler delaying the German counteroffensive into the battle of Kursk to wait on the arrival of the first Tiger tanks from the production line.....this to me would indicate that Tiger tanks were not available during Stalingrad, as counteroffensive implies that they got their asses handed to them already...

and the majority of conflicts, as I understand it, were closed by the end of 1942, whereas the Tiger I entered the scene in very late '42 in extremely small quantities as a kind of experimental design.

At any rate you're certainly not going to be able to rely on the Tiger. My concern is that HoS will have the same problem as Ost Front insofar as the T-34 is going to replace the IS-2. Note that being a German tanker in WWII in the eastern front would have SUCKED *** with the sole exception of 1943 when you had Tigers and the Russians had lulzwutnothing.

You're going to be faced with those horrible short-barreled Panzer IVs no one uses in Ost Front and those ridiculous Panzer IIIs....except because this is early war, you can't expect to use APCR ammunition.

And oh, yeah, I almost forgot, since this is early war the Russians have very few T-34s and the Germans have far more Panzer IIs than anything else, which means you'll be riding into battle in your slick outdated underarmored undergunned design against vastly superior T-34s. Rock on.

The other alternative is forcing Russian tankers to confront Tiger Is, which were known for having a nearly 6-1 kill ratio throughout the entire war, which obviously was more favorable prior to the introduction of any legitimate counter by the Allies, meaning you'd need a swarm of roughly 5 T-34s to take one on.

Oh yeah, don't forget no Panzerfausts, only using Pak-36s (door knocker), and crappy AT rifles that are barely capable of penetrating light tanks.

I feel like game balance is going to be very difficult to achieve in Stalingrad. Call me nuts.

 

[the_TeuTon]

when I see the survey, you have to put tanks in ROHOS
tank battles in stalingrad itself, not so much i guess, but there are some in the near area.
if u do so, pls look at realism. german tanks especially the tiger is too weak in RO (see other threads in RO1 forums)

There may have been some Tigers at Stalingrad but I think the vast majority were Panzer IIs, IIIs and some Panzer IVs. They were frequently used in the city. The Russians often defended buildings to the very last, camping out in cellars and rubble, so the Germans used the 4th Panzer Army's tanks to bulldoze the buildings and bury the remaining defenders. Some tank on tank action occurred but tanks were not very effective in urban environments. As those who frequently play the Leningrad map in RO: Ost, a good anti-tank soldier can easily keep the Panzers at bay. I believe the 4th Panzer Army was stationed in the city and the northern flanks of the Kessel (the southern flank was held by Hungarian and Romanian troops mostly, using captured French vehicles that were outdated). Once the air bridge was started, most of the supplies being carried in were fuel for the tanks.

The Russians even had a tank factory running in the city for some time. They built the T-34s and sent them straight into the fight, often without any gunsights (the gunners looked down the barrel to aim!).

In short, tanks played a major role in the street fighting and should certainly be incorporated into the game. I wouldn't spend time on the tiger though. Save it for a mod.

 

[Zetsumei]

In short, tanks played a major role in the street fighting and should certainly be incorporated into the game. I wouldn't spend time on the tiger though. Save it for a mod.

In a russian interview magazine, twi did mention some of the fighting outside the city as well. And thats where the tigers were used and where they could feel right. So not for combined arms those should be within the city. But for fighting outside of the streets in the pure tank vs tank combat, i think tigers could fit a nice place.

For me i want tiger tanks and an mp43 ingame not really for the main game but for allowing mappers to break away a little in making some more later war maps as well. I love the idea of the game focussing on stalingrad for the detail it can bring, but i would love to see some later war maps in the main game without having to start up a seperate mod.

 

[[TW]Wilsonam]

I know very little about the order of events in WWII but I was watching a history channel doc on WWII and they spoke about Manstein and Hitler delaying the German counteroffensive into the battle of Kursk to wait on the arrival of the first Tiger tanks from the production line.....this to me would indicate that Tiger tanks were not available during Stalingrad, as counteroffensive implies that they got their asses handed to them already...

They were delayed waiting for the first Panthers, not Tigers. Tiger first saw action near Leningrad late 1942...

 

[TT33]

sYou're going to be faced with those horrible short-barreled Panzer IVs no one uses in Ost Front and those ridiculous Panzer IIIs....except because this is early war, you can't expect to use APCR ammunition.

Er no..... first the short barreled (75mm L/24) Panzer IV's and Stugs had HEAT ammunition. It was reportedly a good counter measure vs the T-34 tank in 1941-42. Second the Panzer III was a great tank granted in RO1 its not very useful due to inaccurate armor values in the game code and low end "health" values rather than actual design flaws. In combat the early Panzer III's (armed with 50mm L/42's) were superior to the bulk of Soviet armor which would have been obsolete light vehicles such as the Bt-5, Bt-7, T-28, T-26, T-40, T-60, T-70, later lend-lease stuff like the M3 Stuarts, ect. Later however in 1942 the Panzer III received an armor upgrade (Ausf J,J/1) and a longer high velocity gun (50mm L\60) which had good results against the T-34's armor, most notably the turret, and with some skill could even take out a KV tank (as was what happened the previous year with the Pak 38) By Stalingrad the Germans realized the potential of the Pak 40's penetration ability (it could penetrate a T-34 up to ranges of 1,600 meters well past the T-34's ability to reciprocate) and quickly started mounting as many 75mm L/43 -L/48's on vehicles. When no guns were available they used captured Soviet weapons with 75mm banded German ammunition which vastly improved the weapon's effectiveness. So if there are tanks in RO it should be like this for realism:

The early 50mm L/42 Panzer III's (G-J) should outclass the light vehicles however at the same time be under gunned vs newer & heavier designs. The later Panzer III's (J/1 mounting lang 50mm L\60) should hold their own vs the T-34 (especially with shots to the turret) and with skill be able to take out a Kv-1 at extremely close range. However, a good T-34 crew could just as easily take the Pz III out. Any German 75mm L/43's-L/48 equipped vehicle (Pz IV's G's, Stug III F-G, Marders,ect.) should dominate the battlefield and have no counter although at the same time the Soviets would hold the monopoly on heavy tanks such as the Kv-1 c which would if employed right could counter these 75 mm vehicles.

So interesting time period...

only using Pak-36s (door knocker), and crappy AT rifles that are barely capable of penetrating light tanks.

The PaK-36's 37mm is very useful with its standard AP rounds vs any Soviet light tank and even some mediums such as the T-28. The Pak-36 built its ugly reputation in France, in Russia only a few tanks caused this AT gun Grief The problem was that these tanks became more common later thus by 1942 the Pak-36 was equipped with HEAT rounds which could penetrate over 180 mm of armor.
As for the "crappy At rifles" the Panzerbusche 39 ATR penetrates as much as the Soviet PTRD 35 mm @ 0 at 100 meters which was more than enough for the thousands of older tanks employed similar to PTRD which was effective only against earlier model tanks.

Wilsonam]They were delayed waiting for the first Panthers, not Tigers. Tiger first saw action near Leningrad late 1942..

Operation Winter Storm may have had a few Tigers in it.

They delayed Kursk for the following vehicles:
- Arrival//deployment of large amounts Tiger I's ( they wanted to have a large force in the area ~ 100 or so were deployed in the area making it the largest amount of Tiger ever deployed in a single area)
- Production//arrival of the Panther D's as stated (~200 were deployed)
- Production and arrival of the Panzer IV H tanks ( don't have number deployed but it was a good amount)
- Production and arrival of the Ferdinand (~90 were deployed) tanks.
- I believe I read somewhere the need for more Stug III G as well

 

[VariousNames]

They were delayed waiting for the first Panthers, not Tigers. Tiger first saw action near Leningrad late 1942...

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but say they were waiting for an adequate quantity?

 

[VariousNames]

I expected there to be somebody knowledgeable lurking around these boards, and holy crap you just revealed quite the motherlode of information. I was curious....not as to the details, but some more generally important facts regarding some topics you brought up.

Later however in 1942 the Panzer III received an armor upgrade (Ausf J,J/1) and a longer high velocity gun (50mm L\60)

The early 50mm L/42 Panzer III's (G-J) should outclass the light vehicles however at the same time be under gunned vs newer & heavier designs. The later Panzer III's (J/1 mounting lang 50mm L\60) should hold their own vs the T-34 (especially with shots to the turret) and with skill be able to take out a Kv-1 at extremely close range. However, a good T-34 crew could just as easily take the Pz III out. Any German 75mm L/43's-L/48 equipped vehicle (Pz IV's G's, Stug III F-G, Marders,ect.) should dominate the battlefield and have no counter although at the same time the Soviets would hold the monopoly on heavy tanks such as the Kv-1 c which would if employed right could counter these 75 mm vehicles.

I'm curious as to the introduction date of the APCR ammunition in 50mm caliber and its prevalence in actual Pz.IIIs. With APCR I have no doubt a Pz.III would be enabled to reliably penetrate T-34s at good combat ranges.

I'm also curious as to when the HEAT ammunition in Pz.IVs was introduced and whether it was intended to mitigate the inadequacy of F1 and back's main gun performance with kinetic energy projectiles. The Tiger I also had HEAT ammunition in WWII but as we know it was not included in Ost Front...

So interesting time period...

The PaK-36's 37mm is very useful with its standard AP rounds vs any Soviet light tank and even some mediums such as the T-28. The Pak-36 built its ugly reputation in France, in Russia only a few tanks caused this AT gun Grief The problem was that these tanks became more common later thus by 1942 the Pak-36 was equipped with HEAT rounds which could penetrate over 180 mm of armor.

But if you look at the APCR performance of an 88mm KwK36 it's fantastic and capable of penetrating any Allied tank's armor reliably at any distance....problem being Ost Front only outfitted every German tank with the exception of late era Panzer IIIs with Pzgr. 39 ammunition.

The performance figures for a given weapon may be fantastic and shed a new light on the potential performance of the gun.....however, what is more important is the date of introduction, the date in which the weapon became widespread, and the extent to which it penetrated the reserve guns and newly manufactured ones.

How many PaK 36s, really, were equipped with HEAT ammunition? Could we expect to have significant numbers of them by Stalingrad to encounter heavy tanks? By the way, I've looked at the armor penetration tables for the 37mm and they are pathetic. They only thing this gun was sufficient for on the eastern front was on obsolete tanks....this suggests to me for parity I'm going to be driving around in a Panzer II. Both sides used obsolete weaponry, it just so happens the obsolete PaK36 had obsolete tank targets to contend with.

In other words....all these German weapons are great, but how likely is it that we can expect to see them on the battlefield during Stalingrad....more importantly, how reasonable is it to implement them in Heroes of Stalingrad, keeping in mind the game's interest in maintaining historical authenticity and realism?

 

[TT33]

One thing...when I say "Pak 36" I am talking of the 37 mm L/45 AT gun just to be clear to everyone.

I'm curious as to the introduction date of the APCR ammunition in 50mm caliber and its prevalence in actual Pz.IIIs. With APCR I have no doubt a Pz.III would be enabled to reliably penetrate T-34s at good combat ranges.

Idk the exact date for APCR being issued however APCR (Pzgr 40) was first issued with 50mm PaK 38 in 1941 and it was the main user. I believe that the Panzer III's were also big users of it for use vs KV tanks predominately. Anyway the standard APCBC for the 50mm L/60 could defeat the T-34 especially with hits to the turret.

I'm also curious as to when the HEAT ammunition in Pz.IVs was introduced and whether it was intended to mitigate the inadequacy of F1 and back's main gun performance with kinetic energy projectiles. The Tiger I also had HEAT ammunition in WWII but as we know it was not included in Ost Front...

I believe the version used in 1941 was issued in 1940.... or earlier that year it was meant for defensive purposes due to the bulk of Soviet armor being obsolete light vehicles the which 75mm L/24 had no issue with... however tank crews were reportedly surprised at its ability to penetrate the T-34 and were not shy about using them when encountering T-34's (the Soviets complained that the HEAT round violated the Geneva convention) .... from that point the HEAT was used more like a counter-measure to supplement the 75mm L/24 vs the T-34 (until the L/24 was replaced by the L/43-48 that is) and became not only more produced but refined with higher penetrating round versions as well as issued for older weapons to keep them useful. As for the Tiger having HEAT yeah most vehicles had a HEAT// APCR mix (I believe ~10% of their rounds were devoted to this) although for the Tiger it was not very useful as the round ( ~90mm of penetration) had inferior abilities vs the standard APCBC round on the plus side it was good vs infantry as well.

How many PaK 36s, really, were equipped with HEAT ammunition? Could we expect to have significant numbers of them by Stalingrad to encounter heavy tanks?

It was issued in 1942 from what I have read, because the Germans had 37mm PaK 36 anti-tank gun was in wide spread use even though there were much better AT guns in production (such as the PaK 38) it would take far too long to totally replace the Pak-36 leaving the infantry without any kind of AT weapon & it was far easier to upgrade ammunition than the field piece. Thus most remaining 37mm in front-line use received this HEAT round. Over 636,000+ of the Stielgrenade 41 HEAT rounds for 37-mm guns were made.

There is a 1943 video of it in use I think its "Manner gegen Panzer": You can see the solder pulling up the round at 1:43. It destroys a T-34 at 7:00. Later on in the film it shoots a normal AP round at another T-34 at 7:48 which deflects...
YouTube - Männer gegen Panzer Part 1 of 2

it just so happens the obsolete PaK36 had obsolete tank targets to contend with.

Well, yes if you are in a light vehicle such as a Bt-7, T60, or T-26 you would not think of the Pak 36's 37mm round as weak.

all these German weapons are great, but how likely is it that we can expect to see them on the battlefield during Stalingrad....more importantly, how reasonable is it to implement them in Heroes of Stalingrad,

Well lets see:
I mentioned
-HEAT rounds for the 37mm Pak 36 these were pretty widespread over about 636,000 HEAT rounds for 37-mm guns in 1942-43
-HEAT rounds for the short barreled 75mm L/24 every vehicle would receive at least a few of these.
- The Long 50mm L/60 Panzer III's such as the Ausf J/1 which would have been not only the most produced Panzer III but would have been in the Stalingrad battles
- long 75mm L/43-L/48 these would have been a tad rare however their numbers were growing and they did have a good number of these long 75mm guns in Stalingrad for example the Stug III ausf F-F/8 as well as a few Panzer IV G's and SPG's.
-KV-1c ( on previous post) a heavy Soviet tank and among the most common versions which would have been in the Stalingrad battles.
-Bt-7, T26,etc.... light tanks which served from the beginning and would have still been relatively common in Stalingrad.

As for its implementation it is possible to implement HEAT rounds even on RO1's engine (AB mod did to some effect although it was very weakly portrayed) the question is not if it could rather will it be assuming there even are any tanks in RO2.

 

[VariousNames]

TT I gotta thank you, your response is awesome.

 

[GfrSeifter]

say what u want: tanks in RO, DH and MN are quite ****ty.
and german tanks. i dont wanna talk of.
this is just not realistic. tiger were beasts, they shot so ****ing many shermans for instance.
but fight in MN for example...
i know how to drive tanks, dont worry. this is crap.

 

[Zetsumei]

Tanks need an overhaul in the damage compartment. Bullets bounce off tanks too easily with sloped armor and when angled when the armor of the tank itself is thin.

And damage counts up once you had a penetrating shot, there is no spalling killing the crew and shots that becasically go cleanly in and out still destroy a tank in 3 shots.

And for destroying the tracks you must hit a specific part of the tracks, the road wheels and the upper parts of the tracks seem to be harmless to the tank.

Still the current system is an improvement from the mod, and a lot better than most shooters. But the biggest improvements for ROHOS need to be in the tanking system in the game (for example the ability to change gears so you can maximise your speed to climb a hill or if manual shifting is not an option using a continuous torque machine).

But all in all, your response makes no sense as it got nothing to do with what we're discussing...

 

[TT33]

Bullets bounce off tanks too easily with sloped armor and when angled when the armor of the tank itself is thin.

OVERMATCH is needed vs small rounds such as the 37mm that were over matched by the T-34's armor the T-34 should deflect them like throwing a tennis ball against the wall (although the wall would not suffer damage at its seams or occasionally allow a penetration due to the terrain// reverse angle <--- sloped armor is very dependent on level terrain) however vs larger calibers such as the 75mm L/43 the T-34 lost its protection in part due to the round overmatching the armor thus the Germans by 1942 could destroy the T-34 up at large distances at any angle thus the t-34''s frontal armor should not ever deflect a 75mm L/43 and up AT rounds at most ranges.

 

[VariousNames]

OVERMATCH is needed vs small rounds such as the 37mm that were over matched by the T-34's armor the T-34 should deflect them like throwing a tennis ball against the wall (although the wall would not suffer damage at its seams or occasionally allow a penetration due to the terrain// reverse angle <--- sloped armor is very dependent on level terrain) however vs larger calibers such as the 75mm L/43 the T-34 lost its protection in part due to the round overmatching the armor thus the Germans by 1942 could destroy the T-34 up at large distances at any angle thus the t-34''s frontal armor should not ever deflect a 75mm L/43 and up AT rounds at most ranges.

But how does that affect rounds on the edge.....i.e. a 88mm KwK36 versus 90mm sloped IS-2 side armor....or, say, the same caliber against the 120mm sloped frontal armor? Also, what about the 75mm KwK 42, how would an IS-2 frontal plate sustain a shot from that? I was under the impression the KwK 42 had fantastic penetration despite it being a small caliber. Would it be more subject to outright deflection than, say, an 88mm caliber?

Is deflection rate inversely proportionate to diameter of projectile?

 

[PETERPANs]

I am sure that tripwire will not create all tanks like IS-2, only tanks related to battle of Stalingrad era. So try to discuss penetration vs early T-34 tanks, BT-7, T-60 or else. Dont discuss penetration against tanks which dont existed yet, RO HOS is about late 1942 and some first days of 1943.

 

[Zetsumei]

afaik overmatch can be simulated close enough when knowing thickness of the armor plate hit and diameter of the bullet. Atleast that is what people said in the past. Although maybe you need velocity and mass as well.