Spec speed and damage

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[UIT] Akame

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 5, 2009
1,280
129
0
My own personal hell
I would like to suggest a revamp of the specimens. As the game currently stands the largest portion of wipes occur because of a mob of specimens are not dealt with, gorefasts and crawlers being the worst offenders.

Between scrake perma-stun and FP decaps, most specs are not an issue to deal with. With proper deployment of players and management of specs the only issue that arises is the absurd amount of damage a single spec can do on hard or suicidal.

Removing the perma-stun of the scrake, but also removing the rage (but increaing his normal speed) while giving the FP a modified version of the Hard Head spesification that would allow decaps only if, say, 50% of his health is gone. This would make the toughest enemies in the game relavent again.

Spec speed and damage should be reduced as well, with a significant increase in HP to offset the ridiculous amount of damage high level perks can output.
 
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Ihmhi

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 7, 2009
403
6
0
35
www.asseater.org
I'm against this on the FP thing. FP has the second hardest to hit critical headshot hitbox - it's on the top of his friggin' head!

Even if you know what you're doing, it doesn't guarantee a hit for a decap, and if things go bad they go bad fast.

As for the Scrake, it's fairly balanced IMO. The Berserker is really, really, really vulnerable when he's taking a Scrake out - he needs a teammate to cover him. I was undone by a Crawler because I was busy with stunlocking two Scrakes and I couldn't turn around to kill it. No one to back me up = death. It encourages teamwork, so this should stay too IMO.
 

[UIT] Akame

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 5, 2009
1,280
129
0
My own personal hell
Ah, but I can easily decap FPs with a bullpup and still stun scrakes with the katana as a level 4 commando while having the ability to deal with almost every other spec.
 

Bio666

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 10, 2009
788
2
0
Ah, but I can easily decap FPs with a bullpup and still stun scrakes with the katana as a level 4 commando while having the ability to deal with almost every other spec.

... if you have enough space

I found comando to be extremely ineffiective when in close-quarter space, while support and fire bug is the most effective.
 

omarfw

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 13, 2009
2,504
85
0
Here Be Dragons
www.last.fm
I would like to suggest a revamp of the specimens. As the game currently stands the largest portion of wipes occur because of a mob of specimens are not dealt with, gorefasts and crawlers being the worst offenders.

Between scrake perma-stun and FP decaps, most specs are not an issue to deal with. With proper deployment of players and management of specs the only issue that arises is the absurd amount of damage a single spec can do on hard or suicidal.

Removing the perma-stun of the scrake, but also removing the rage (but increaing his normal speed) while giving the FP a modified version of the Hard Head spesification that would allow decaps only if, say, 50% of his health is gone. This would make the toughest enemies in the game relavent again.

Spec speed and damage should be reduced as well, with a significant increase in HP to offset the ridiculous amount of damage high level perks can output.

you sound like someone who doesn't play on suicidal but should.
 

SMIFF

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 19, 2009
1,828
804
0
try and play without using the scrake stun or fp decap...

much harder imo
and more honourable lol
 

[UIT] Akame

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 5, 2009
1,280
129
0
My own personal hell
you sound like someone who doesn't play on suicidal but should.

I don't play suicidal much but scrakes can still get stun-locked and FPs still decap (although they still deal a boatload of damage without rage, but are easier to deal with). The only reason suicidal is difficult is because the specs deal an rediculous amount of damage. A single gorefast can wipe the team is seconds if not dealt with so scrakes are still marginalized and FPs might as well spawn without a head.

My point is they could make all of the specs deal almost no damage and decrease speed and they make a new difficult named THIS MODE IS REALLY SUICIDAL and give all the specs a 200,000,000% health increase. The mode would be difficult but not fun. This is how I feel about hard mode and suicidal currently. Hard would be fun if scrakes and FPs weren't such pushovers.

@SMIFF
I have. But others do not and on harder difficulties it is near impossible to deal with them otherwise, and it still happens when you don't intent it (FP decaps anyway).
 

jesters puppet

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 13, 2009
165
5
0
Engalnd
yh im always puzzled by people talking about FP decap and scrake stun as ive never pulled one of or seen one done. so i dont see what the deal is...althought the scrake should be as hard as he was in the mod...damn! you got face to face with a scrake.....and you WERE going to die XD
 

SMIFF

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 19, 2009
1,828
804
0
@SMIFF
I have. But others do not and on harder difficulties it is near impossible to deal with them otherwise, and it still happens when you don't intent it (FP decaps anyway).


iv lucked an fp decap a few times with dual handcannon's...but from about short to medium range, he wasnt bowing down so i dnt know what happens, maybe one of his walk animations exposes the top of his head a little

but they can still be dealt with quite easily on harder difficulty's, depends on how many players are in the game, if there is like 20 players lol......then there nearly immortal from what iv seen, but 6 or less, then nade spam, shoot as much as you can till it gets near you, then ahnialate with hunting shotgun. but you probably dont play as support so must think of another way lol
 

_COMRADe

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 22, 2009
98
5
0
you sound like someone who doesn't play on suicidal but should.

What Omar said.

Seriously, though? Cry more. The whole idea is to use a combination of team-mates, strategy, and weapon combinations to kill each individual type of specimen. If you are winning "too easily" you are clearly not playing Hard or Suicidal. A scrake can completely ruin your sh*t on Hard if not dealt with properly. Fleshpounds are just the same. If you can get that headshot, good, you're safe for the next half a second until some other spec decides it wants to mess you up, which is often. I don't speak for TWI, but I am of the opinion that they made the harder difficulties FOR A REASON.
 

[UIT] Akame

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 5, 2009
1,280
129
0
My own personal hell
@SMIFF
Support is the first perk I level to 5 for. But anyway, the issue if you have to have a whole team turn into DPS mode on a singe spec to kill it when you could just unload 5-10 shots from a bullpup any easily decap it makes a big difference. Any, yes you could just not do it, but in the same vein, why fix glitches? Because there are people who use them, even if you don't

@_COMRADe
The issue is not that any difficulty is too easy or hard, but rather regardless of the difficulty both scrakes and FP are rather easy to deal with for that difficulty. Back in the mod the two of them were rage juggernauts of hate. Now they are pushovers compared to other specs.

If they nerfed every spec so that they die in one shot to the head regardless of the difficulty (though they still deal their normal damage) except the clot and crawler but make a difficulty that increased the hp of all specs by an absurd amount. Someone might say, well this game is easy, they should make specs tougher, to which someone replies "you obviously don't play suicidal or suicidal_v2 or suicidal_v2_final_competition_version".

The issue is spec balance not difficulty of the game.
 

SMIFF

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 19, 2009
1,828
804
0
If they nerfed every spec so that they die in one shot to the head regardless of the difficulty (though they still deal their normal damage) except the clot and crawler but make a difficulty that increased the hp of all specs by an absurd amount. Someone might say, well this game is easy, they should make specs tougher, to which someone replies "you obviously don't play suicidal or suicidal_v2 or suicidal_v2_final_competition_version".

The issue is spec balance not difficulty of the game.

i may of misread this, but are you actually pitching that every specimen gets killed with one shot to the head....or did i miss something?
 

Nanostrike

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 19, 2009
2,027
250
0
Back in the mod the two of them were rage juggernauts of hate. Now they are pushovers compared to other specs.

The issue is spec balance not difficulty of the game.

You're contradicting your own point here. In the mod, Scrakes and Fleshpounds were IMBALANCED. As in, in the wrong situation, there would be NO WAY you could win against one, period. This felt incredibly lame. And, to be honest, 1v1, you SHOULD be able to dominate any specimen in the game if you have the skill to do so! Otherwise solo or small-team play is near impossible.

A Scrake that spawned behind you in the mod and got his chainsaw sank into you "grabbed" you like a clot and wouldn't let you go until he was killed...and of course YOU would almost always die faster than he would, even with teammates helping.

There was also no way to stun him at all, so any melee players attacking him that got hit even ONCE (And, mind you, we didn't have the fancy "Kill in 5 seconds" Katana either!) were grabbed and unable to get away... It was absolute cheese. The Scrake stunning, as it is, lacks a good animation and so looks a bit weird, but is a good way to balance the specimen. Especially since you're vulnerable while doing so and if you don't "Finish" him, he tends to rage and charge you when he un-stuns!

Likewise, there was no way to stop a charging Fleshpound at all. Now, you can decap them in a pinch. Without the decapping, some classes (Melee and Commando in particular. Tripwire even said it was to give melee and weak-weapon classes a chance!) simply can't deal damage to the Fleshpound fast enough to down it before it kills them. If you had a team of anything but Supports or Crossbow Sharpshooters, a single Fleshpound would most likely steamroll someone dead before they could stop it. The decap manages to fix this while STILL REQUIRING SKILL.

It sounds like you're complaining about the game being too easy due to you having skill and a decent team. That tends to make any game easier. Especially if you aren't playing on Suicidal...
 

[UIT] Akame

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 5, 2009
1,280
129
0
My own personal hell
@Smiff
no I'm trying to make a point.

@Nanostrike
Not every perk needs to be able to deal with every spec. You have support and SS to deal lots of damage and commandos and berserker to deal with smaller enemies. Scrakes were difficult but not impossible, but FPs were indeed broken. They are still difficult in mod but they have easily been marginalized with the stun and decap. A harder difficulty does not make the specs balance only make them overall more difficult.
 

Slappy Cromwell

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 16, 2009
441
180
0
And, to be honest, 1v1, you SHOULD be able to dominate any specimen in the game if you have the skill to do so! Otherwise solo or small-team play is near impossible.
There's a difference between "1v1" and Solo. The former assumes you're in a server filled with other players. The latter is simply the mode you can choose from the main menu. The former has you battling against specimens with multiplied health, speed, and damage values based on the number of your teammates. The latter is dumbed down to the point where you can behead Scrakes with a pistol. Do not confuse the two. Solo mode would not be broken by fixing Scrake freezing and Fleshpound insta-decaps.

As for playing with "small-team play" (Which I would consider 2-3 players), that will always be hard regardless of what you do. However, very few people actively seek out such small games (I find that servers tend to fill up to the max quite quickly). Most of Killing Floor's player population spends their time in servers easily filled with 4-6 players at any moment. The vast majority should not have to suffer due to a barely utilized minority choice. Nonetheless, you're exaggerating the supposed difficulty that befalls small-team play. They get plenty of favorable breaks just like Solo mode. Difficulty only really begins to scale up at about 4 players.

And, mind you, we didn't have the fancy "Kill in 5 seconds" Katana either!
But we do now, and that's the point. We're not discussing the mod, so I have no idea why you've even bothered to bring it up. This is retail KF and it's why we're here. Unless the Katana receives its much needed nerf, it's here to stay and you can't expect everyone to not exploit its massive overpowered-ness to the absolute fullest extent.

and if you don't "Finish" him, he tends to rage and charge you when he un-stuns!
At which point you can just whip out your melee weapon again and repeat the exact same process. Raged or not, the Scrake will never manage to touch you.

The decap manages to fix this while STILL REQUIRING SKILL.
There is no skill involved in whipping out your pistol and decapitating a charging Fleshpound in a single shot. That's simply a matter of timing, a practice made unbelievable easy due to the massive window of opportunity the Fleshpound grants when he bobs his head for a horridly long duration (And before he even hits the person too!).
 

Nanostrike

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 19, 2009
2,027
250
0
-INSERT LONG QUOTED POST HERE-

Since you make good points, I'll reply to your post rationally, in Krotz-style.

*Ahem* We're on a slippery slope and all you keep doing is throwing out red herrings and cherry picking through my post! Your post is non-sequitor, so stop strawmanning me with your functional illiteracy!

@Nanostrike
Not every perk needs to be able to deal with every spec. You have support and SS to deal lots of damage and commandos and berserker to deal with smaller enemies.

If you end up without said perk in your game or if said perk's player sucks, then you're stuck with unwinnable situations. For example, if Scrakes were un-stun-able, then a Berserker would have no real way to take them down, as going blow-for-blow with a Scrake on Hard or Suicidal is a good way to die fast. Likewise, without the decap, melee simply can't have a prayer against Fleshpounds

I realize what you're saying, but I think they're actively trying to get rid of the "You must have X perk to take out the Y type of enemy!" stuff in favor of a more balanced "If you do things right, you have a chance against ANY enemy, no matter your perk." And to be honest, I like it more like that.
 

omarfw

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 13, 2009
2,504
85
0
Here Be Dragons
www.last.fm
The problem is that many people here just want to be able to take on any specimen by themselves with their favorite perk when the fact is is that this will never be made possible and you're going to have to face facts that this is a teamwork game and your rambo'ing will never be made easier for you.

Even if you don't rambo, making sure you stick with your team so you don't get caught alone with the FP is one of basics of being a good KF player.
Skill is in how well you can rely on your teammates and help your teammates, not in how much your perk works as a crutch to replace your lack of skill.

Yes the katana is too powerful. It will probably be nerfed rather soon. Sure it was good while it lasted but guess what zerkers KF is not supposed to be an easy game. If you want it to be easy then go play on beginner. The few of us that actually use teamwork will still be able to own on suicidal without our god-mode katanas.

ALL PERKS HAVE WEAKNESSES. DEAL WITH IT.
 
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_COMRADe

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 22, 2009
98
5
0
Yes the katana is too powerful. It will probably be nerfed rather soon. Sure it was good while it lasted but guess what zerkers KF is not supposed to be an easy game. If you want it to be easy then go play on beginner. The few of us that actually use teamwork will still be able to own on suicidal without our god-mode katanas.

ALL PERKS HAVE WEAKNESSES. DEAL WITH IT.

WHAT OMARFW SAID.
Basically end of discussion...
 

jb_

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 17, 2009
59
13
0
I disagree with this thread.

You might as well ask for a crosshair in the game(which I'm strongly against)

And I suggest you get better, find tactics, hone your headshot skills etc.

Theres also 4 modes of gameplay ranging from beginner - suicidal. Just drop a level if you cant handle it.

Kiling Floor is the best game for the FPS freak. It wouldnt be fun and challenging factor goes down. Bad for hardcore Suicidal players who play custom servers that spawn 100 zombies at once with no max zombie at once limit.

Couldnt want more except improvements(which TPI does deliver). Just no toning down please...
 

[UIT] Akame

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 5, 2009
1,280
129
0
My own personal hell
@Nanostrike
If you give every perk the ability to take on any enemy then you have no reason to use anything other than the absolute best perk, other than some coolness factor or something. Katana is by far the worst offender at the current time but even removing the stun doesn't fix things because it is still possible to do the something with an axe (although the axe is heavier and doesn't fit as well). And giving the ability to deal with every enemy to every perk mean intentionally marginalizing tougher enemies so low DPS perks can deal with them.
Slappy Cromwell said:
There is no skill involved in whipping out your pistol and decapitating a charging Fleshpound in a single shot. That's simply a matter of timing, a practice made unbelievable easy due to the massive window of opportunity the Fleshpound grants when he bobs his head for a horridly long duration (And before he even hits the person too!).
This is exactly the issue. But as I mentioned earlier it isn't necessarily bad to have them be able to be decapped, but when any person and easily turn around into an FP, pull out their pistol and neuter the FP there is something wrong. I propose some damage threshold to be passed before they decap, so both skill and DPS matter.