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Unfortunately, you need to base the game on a conflict that would sell and have enough mass appeal. If you don't, you had better make the game so perfect that you draw in new players that would not otherwise be interested in that particular war.

Despite some issues with...( ) I think that TWI does WW2 rather well. I would be interested in a WW2 RO3 if TWI decides to do one. Even then I do not plan on pre-purchasing their next game, I was a HUGE fan of ROOST as many others were and like them I pre-purchased RO2 but was disappointed in the many "mainstream" changes that TWI made with it. I only kept playing it because it was still decent despite those changes AND there really wasn't anything else out there halfway good and WW2 at the same time. I still say that if TWI skipped all those frilly additions (leveling etc) and concentrated those resources instead on perfecting the release with a bit more content/optimization, they would not have lost so many ROOST fans and would have more players/fans today. Now, some of you might not like what I just said, but its honest feedback.

Now, WW2 is a major conflict that many people still like playing in games, and for a smaller publisher its a safer bet than some of the small conflicts. You'd most likely loose a lot of the fanbase moving on to something else so that is something they will be thinking about.

I couldnt disagree more. Look at COD and BF4, both stupid story lines of fictitious wars that would never happen, BF3 was more beleivable and much more entertaining but BF4? And dont get me started on BF2, yes fictitious but at the time not to unrealistic situation, best game of the series. Ohh yet the new ones draw the most players.....

Its called marketing. TW is an indie company and I doubt they have the gazzilions act and EA have for their marketeing. Or rumor of mouth of 12 year old n00bs getting into PC fps gaming. You think they are gonna go "ohh u gotta play RO2 its so realistic Im an idiot and get killed in 5 sec running around like im Rambo, what a great game" Remember they dont think..... and in this game you have to t hink its not a twich shooter. TW has to rely on steam and the interweb.

Agreed. Now, I wouldn't be opposed to them doing something different for an expansion pack. May be really neat. I personally would love to see something about Dien Bien Phu. Maybe the Winter War or Korean War.

Hey I think I was playing on server with your earlier. Look at my avatar you will know what my nick was :D
 
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I couldnt disagree more. Look at COD and BF4, both stupid story lines of fictitious wars that would never happen, BF3 was more beleivable and much more entertaining but BF4? And dont get me started on BF2, yes fictitious but at the time not to unrealistic situation, best game of the series. Ohh yet the new ones draw the most players.....

Its called marketing. TW is an indie company and I doubt they have the gazzilions act and EA have for their marketeing. Or rumor of mouth of 12 year old n00bs getting into PC fps gaming. You think they are gonna go "ohh u gotta play RO2 its so realistic Im an idiot and get killed in 5 sec running around like im Rambo, what a great game" Remember they dont think..... and in this game you have to t hink its not a twich shooter. TW has to rely on steam and the interweb.

Hey I think I was playing on server with your earlier. Look at my avatar you will know what my nick was :D

You are talking big companies with huge well established titles and legions of lemmings, I mean fans. They are able to pull off something like that. No matter your thoughts on TWI, they are not in the same league, do not have the same budget to advertise, and rely more on word of mouth or occasional magazine articles.

Quite honestly, it actually sounds like you are agreeing with me with what you wrote :p
 
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You are talking big companies with huge well established titles and legions of lemmings, I mean fans. They are able to pull off something like that. No matter your thoughts on TWI, they are not in the same league, do not have the same budget to advertise, and rely more on word of mouth or occasional magazine articles.

Quite honestly, it actually sounds like you are agreeing with me with what you wrote :p

Yeah I know that,lol read my post again.

But I dont think TWI needs marketing to make somethiing like RO3 big, use unreal 4 engine, even makeit free like CS mod was15 years ago. THen someone will pay big bucks for it.
 
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It was 30 months between the launch of the RO2 forum and the release of RO2. By that (admittedly flawed) logic, if an RO3 forum were launched today - it would be released in July 2017.


I know people are excited by new RO2 content -- but it absolutely not "too early" to be discussing RO3. In fact, now is the perfect time to discuss. We are the ones with emphatic opinions on the matter and we know that TWI reads and listens to us. It is also the time when the devs are brain storming ideas and the contemplating the fundamental principles that will be the foundation of the game in it's final state.


I made a thread about this in September (<a href="http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?p=1330926#post1330926" target="_blank"><a href="http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?p=1330926#post1330926" target="_blank">http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?p=1330926#post1330926), and was met with a lot of flak about how it's too early.... I almost felt as though people thought I was spewing blasphemy.... but again - I disagree with that notion and think that now is an excellent time to discuss RO3.


I believe :


- RO3 has the potential to be the greatest WW2 FPS ever... if not the greatest FPS ever.


- RO3 can sell well and generate excellent profits for TWI while simultaneously appeasing RO1 AND RO2 fans as well as attracting new followers by straddling the grey area between RO1 and RO2. The open world MMOish immersive feeling of RO1 (I'm looking at you Berezina (and we all know that feeling immersed in a digital world is a HUGELY popular feeling (look at Skyrim and WoW))) and the tight and awesome shootingness of RO2 could create a game that feels skilled and badass for average-FPS-Joe but also feels immersive and engaging for action-adventure guys.




Seriously -- Take the awesome new stuff and tight mechanics from RO2.... make it open and strategic like RO1 .... and poof... awesome game for the niche and for the public. I think a big problem with RO2 was that maps were designed for RO1.... Danzig worked for RO1 because of the slow pace, but Apartments feels like CoD. This is why Bridges is the most popular map -- it's made with RO2 pacing in mind.


I'm also going to shamelessly quote my other thread. I'm sorry to be annoying - but I feel as though my voice on this needs to be heard. TWI is the only hope for an RO3 -- no one else is going to make a game anything like it. I feel like this game could make history... like the Beatles in the 60s or Nintendo in the 80s.... the stars of technology, word of mouth/internet/steam/Rock Paper Shotgun marketing, collective societal opinion can align for Ro3.


1) Gameplay mechanics and features -- I LOVED everything that was introduced in Ro2. Cover system? Genius. Blindfire? Genius and amazingly executed. Switch to iron sights from scope on sniper by using alt fire? Genius, even loved Ramm's story about how he thought of it. Hold reload to guesstimate magazine? Genius. There are some things though, like voice commands, that could harken a little bit back to the Ro1 tradition. I was totally able to communicate with non-English speakers through the old UT style V based communication system. The wheel in Ro2 didn't have nearly as many applications.

2) Tactical View - Literally genius. I'd like it to be more customizable though. Through some .ini alterations I found on the forums here I had it so that I could hit T and have all the info I needed at my fingertips, but I was in total immersion mode when I let go of the button.

3) Setting -- I'd like a return to the whole Eastern Front. Stalingrad was awesome, but I loved being able to go from Kursk to Berlin to Odessa on the same server.

4) Shooting mechanics -- Red Orchestra does this better than anyone, bar none. I think something between realism and classic would be appropriate. Sway, stamina effects, recoil, snap-to-iron-sights, pivot-while-iron-sighting, etc... I trust TWI can do a great job. I just think a halfway point between the Ro2 fast pace and the Ro1 slow pace would really hit the nail on the head. Zoom more towards the level of Darkest Hour, which felt a little bit more like "focused eyesight" imo.

5) Running mechanics -- Same as shooting, I think meeting halfway between Ro1 and Ro2 would be the sweet spot... it could really appeal to multiple spectrums of the FPS market, satisfying both the WW2 buffs and the newly established lost generation of "I love online FPS but am open to something outside the CoD paradigm."

6) Tanks -- I'm sure TWI will be able to figure this one out. I just hope that they can be integrated back into the game like combined arms maps and Darkest Hour... They're crucial and game changing, but not game breaking. Crawling in the hedges and sticking to the buildings allows one to contribute to the battlefield and dominate the crevices as infantry, but tanks are king in the open field.

7) Squad System -- If the squad system is included, it should be be displayed in a prominent fashion (but also tied into the idea that it won't be intrusive and will fade out once Tactical View is disengaged). Soldiers should be aware of their squad, as much as they are their team. Maybe players would be limited to 3D voip amongst their team -- but able to communicate across the whole battlefield with their squad? Personally, I wasn't a fan of spawn on SL as a fixture. However, I totally respect it's intended contribution to teamwork. I think if it were included, but had a cooldown of every 2 or 3 or 4 minutes or every 3 lives... (We could strike the happy medium between Ro1's suicidal smoke throwing attack leader and Ro2's advance-and-hide spawn point).

7) Suppression -- Very happy it was included in Ro2, but I often found it a little overbearing. I liked that is accumulated in heavy moments in Ro2 so that you felt truly helpless and caught in the firestorm. However, it often led to obnoxious residual and superfluous moments. Like 20 seconds after the firefight, I'm in a room all alone still black and white.... like a posion status effect in final fantasy. I think it should be like Darkest Hour where it snaps your aim off point momentarily, but it also includes an RO2-like status that fades after a couple of seconds. The status should be time based, not meter accumulation based. People would still be suppressed in heavy fire fights, but wouldn't have to cower against sand bags cuz a few shots went off 20 seconds beforehand.

8) Map Design/objectives -- I have a strong perference towards open maps with delineated objectives. The most brilliant moments in RO have always been in a) the open territory one happens to find oneself in contact with an opponent, through coincidence or circumstantial flanking interests or b) the intensity of the defined objective zone... Bridges turned out to be a massively popular Ro2 map, and I think it provided these kinds of moments. There were a lot of Ro1 maps and (especially) DH maps that got this right. The distance ability to advance on foot vs. distance of ability to kill with rifles (and MGs, tanks, etc.) means that a front is naturally established (a concept quintessential to 20th century warfare). Tight maps can be intense and fun... open maps can be tactical and immersive... but it's ideal to smush the the "tight map" concept into objective zones and allow the "open map" concept to flourish in between those particular points of interest.

9) Progression System -- I think the pragmatic route to take is to include a progression system but have it be purely cosmetic... stripes on the sleeve type of thing.

10) Audio -- Ro2 had some amazing sounds, but the mix wasn't balanced overall. Gun shots were recorded in a desert and sounded amazing... but it sounded quiet in comparison to the overall mix. Ro1 had worse actual audio, but it was mixed in a way that made me crap myself when artillery shells were nearby. Source material should be mixed/mastered in a way that causes one to feel immersed in the frontline.

11) 3D voip -- Gotta have it. It would be so so so incredible.


also
12) Expanded support roles. I'd like to see just a little bit more stuff to do other than kill and capture. Return to Castle Wolfenstein : Enemy Territory had some predetermined spots where bridges and machine gun nests could be erected and they could also be satchel charged and destroyed. I think some pontoon bridges, duck walks, etc. could be really cool in Ro3. Alslo cutting barbed wire... placing barbed wire... destroying tank traps..I think Ro2 hit a uniquely bad ratio of riflemen to non-rifleman.... I know I know, everyone loves to have a sweet gun, but it sucks being stuck with a Kar when 70% of the opponents you run into have vastly superior weaponry (and no, I'm not bad at rifleman) ... the whole "lots of riflemen" thing only works if you get some cool rifle vs. rifle firefights. I think it would be really cool to have some support roles so that guys carrying rifles and guys who are defending peripheral sectors that may be a little quieter have a little something to do... mortar observers, engineers, radio guy, maybe an ammo specialist, maybe a medic (RTCW:Enemy Territory style could probably work in RO3). Also, I think a little mini-game (lock picking in skyrim, hacking in bioshock, one finger death punch miniboss, mortal kombat up up down left right left right timey thing) would be nice for cutting barbed wire or erecting a pontoon bridge instead of just holding E to interact (payday 2, im looking at you)


Synopsis - Straddle the line between RO1 and RO2 + take the best of both games = RO3 = best game ever
 
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I created an account here just to find a thread on this topic.

I'm a 3d artist teaching myself Unreal Engine 4 right now. I have also picked up playing RO2 in the past week. I am a big WWII & FPS fan. Have 1000+ hrs on Day of Defeat Source. Was a huge Call of Duty 1 fan. I've been playing Insurgency for the past 6 months and think it is one of the best realism shooters out right now.

In the past week I've installed and have been playing RO2 and have really been enjoying myself, the gameplay is great but one things was clear as day to me.

This game is dated visually.

My very next thought, naturally, RO3 on UE4 needs to happen ASAP.
Now I don't have a deep commitment to RO2 and am not too concerned about the longevity of the current release, I just imagine the great gameplay and mechanics of this game wrapped in the beauty that UE4 can provide and I begin to salivate.

I am considering creating props and environment art just to make myself a candidate for a artist on the team for when they do announce it.

tldr; RO3 on UE4 would be epic and should be a no-brainer!
 
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I created an account here just to find a thread on this topic.

I'm a 3d artist teaching myself Unreal Engine 4 right now. I have also picked up playing RO2 in the past week. I am a big WWII & FPS fan. Have 1000+ hrs on Day of Defeat Source. Was a huge Call of Duty 1 fan. I've been playing Insurgency for the past 6 months and think it is one of the best realism shooters out right now.

In the past week I've installed and have been playing RO2 and have really been enjoying myself, the gameplay is great but one things was clear as day to me.

This game is dated visually.

My very next thought, naturally, RO3 on UE4 needs to happen ASAP.
Now I don't have a deep commitment to RO2 and am not too concerned about the longevity of the current release, I just imagine the great gameplay and mechanics of this game wrapped in the beauty that UE4 can provide and I begin to salivate.

I am considering creating props and environment art just to make myself a candidate for a artist on the team for when they do announce it.

tldr; RO3 on UE4 would be epic and should be a no-brainer!

Heh when I went to college my major was game design and programming, if I had only finished id be having a ball with Unreal 4 SDK right now ;)

But yeah even though RO2 looks a bit outdated TW still did a good job at pushing Unreal 3 engine to its limits. It doesnt look that bad, of course by todays standards other engines are better but I think the gameplay of RO2 makes up for everything. What bothers me the most is the hardware usage, considering the engine the game should run much better, I dont see it using more then 3 threads. I guess thats Unreal 3s limit.

So we should upgrade just due to visuals? UE3 doesn't look that bad. Sure it's no BF4, but still.
No it wouldnt be just visuals, go read about unreal 4 engine, its more then just visuals. BF4 and frostbite engine is a bit over hyped. Just compare it to Unreal 4, unreal 4 is even more photo realistic then ARMA3s engine which is so far best Ive seen till Unreal. Difference being ARMA runs like crap even on high end rigs, and im 100% Unreal 4 will run great on even mid range rigs. You have to understand how engines work in relation with hardware to see what I mean. Plus I think its not using MS DX bs. OpenGL all the way which is known to perform like a ferrari. Less draw calls to CPU. similar to AMD mantle only OpenGL has existed much longer. But of course its got the word Open which means its open source and thx to mr Bill Gates he gives a nice handjob to devs that use his DX bs.
 
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I agree with GRIZZLY that Tripwire could make an awesome RO3, although my personal hope would be that they would focus on 3 main things:

1) Increasing the number of soldiers so that in the combined arms combat there are still enough footsoldiers and in the non tank maps there are enough riflemen.

2) Giving some new options for movement and positioning yourself. For instance one of the things I like most is how diving from a sprint can be used. But RO2 could use some improvement in how you interact with your environment. At the moment everything you can climb up on or use as cover must be specified in the editor, and you have a limited range of heights to position yourself in. It would be nice if they integrated some form of more continuous height control, an automatic cover system that worked on any static mesh or terrain, and a climbing system since a lot of fighting takes place in irregularly shaped ruins on things that really need to have some non-scripted form of interaction. But RO2 itself was a major improvement over RO1 in this regard.

3) Revise the spawn system to keep the best of both systems. Have the ability to spawn places be a function of where your entire team is, not just the squad leader, so that nobody has to sit around being a mobile spawn point. So basically have the mapmaker specify places that are safe to spawn, you could even program it so that this is a layer that can be painted onto terrain to make it faster, but during battle the average position of friendly troops is calculated all the time and you spawn a certain distance back from this in any of the designated spawn areas but closer and closer or farther and farther from each cap.
 
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I agree with GRIZZLY that Tripwire could make an awesome RO3, although my personal hope would be that they would focus on 3 main things:

1) Increasing the number of soldiers so that in the combined arms combat there are still enough footsoldiers and in the non tank maps there are enough riflemen.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind if the player limit was reduced to ~40. This would leave some room for other game improvements (like network heavy facial/regular animations, improved headroom for fancy gfx effects, etc.)

Also, as much as I love tanks present on the battlefield (not a huge fan of controlling them, just destroying them!), I would be fine with the next iteration initially releasing without tanks, a la Rising Storm. The infantry combat is just much more fun in Rising Storm (again entirely my opinion), and I feel like a lot of that comes down to the infantry only focus.

Making tanks right + tank related maps/content is a huge drain on a team's resources and I would much prefer to see more infantry features/maps/weapons if Tripwire stepped away from the tank route.
 
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Honestly, I wouldn't mind if the player limit was reduced to ~40. This would leave some room for other game improvements (like network heavy facial/regular animations, improved headroom for fancy gfx effects, etc.)

Also, as much as I love tanks present on the battlefield (not a huge fan of controlling them, just destroying them!), I would be fine with the next iteration initially releasing without tanks, a la Rising Storm. The infantry combat is just much more fun in Rising Storm (again entirely my opinion), and I feel like a lot of that comes down to the infantry only focus.

Making tanks right + tank related maps/content is a huge drain on a team's resources and I would much prefer to see more infantry features/maps/weapons if Tripwire stepped away from the tank route.

I would say that while vehicles seemed to be a large drain on resources for RO2, if RO3 were made it would probably be on a newer engine like udk4, which having looked into a little seems to be vastly easier to work with when it comes to implementing vehicles as they are now.

And certainly things like facial animations and more weapons are always welcome, but I think that those are the sorts of things that megastudios specialize in, and tripwire probably couldn't compete with them if that is all they had to go off of. Instead I think that larger numbers of players would help to even out a lot of the gameplay, since my personal feeling is that when you play with only ~40 players, the enemy can flank you on any size map and the game boils down to who happens to see who first. Larger numbers means you establish something of a frontline, and the combat is less and less a reflection of artificial things like respawn waves, and more of immersive things like people coordinating as a group to attack somewhere. I think Red Orchestra shines the most when your actions alone feel insignificant, that you are only significant as part of a much larger team effort. The lack of facial animations even kind of ironically adds to this for me.

While I agree to an extent that improving the game by focusing on improving the combat in a more limited scope would be good, I don't think that this would set RO3 apart enough from other games to draw more people. Games built completely with graphics in mind on the CryEngine or whatever are able to field ~40 people with facial animations and crazy particle effects and such, but what they lack is any compelling sort of tactical experience, or feeling of player coordination.

A perfect example of this dichotomy is in the current development of two civil war games both based off of former Mount and Blade modding teams. The one, War of Rights, has chosen CryEngine and in general for better graphics, effects, what have you. The other, Battle Cry of Freedom, is striving on some engine I don't know for 500 player battles and for fluid command structures and game types. In the end, the combat will no doubt be about the same for both, but I think that only the second one will really be a success if either are ever released because they have chosen to focus on what smaller studios do best, core game design. Sure 500 player battles are a tall order, but if they make it a main design objective this isn't outlandish to expect.
 
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After 6yrs of non-stop RO I was finally talked into trying Insurgency a little over a month ago. I was blown away how many Custom maps there are and how it feels like RO1. If they do make RO3 I hope to God they make it easier to make custom maps, vehicles and skinzzz. I don't know if RO3 would ever be like Red Orchestra... the community in RO2 doesn't even play custom maps that often.. its just sad. The Glory days of RO1 are gone because of TWI and a diff community.
 
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In what way does Insurgency feel like Ost Front? The weapon handling, movement, pace of the matches, for the most part it relates to RO2 in a modern warfare setting I can't think of many things that relate to RO1, and you can bunny hop and the maps feel like counter strike. I enjoy Insurgency, but when I play it I can't help but think what it would be like with an RO makeover, larger maps that aren't so symmetrical and some vehicles for support, proper objectives.

In terms of map making, for RO2 you're making them for 64 players since 16p and 32p are not used this adds its own challenges, to cater to that many players you have larger landscapes which requires detail. If RO2 was 24 players you'd see more maps because they wouldn't need to be as big and take as long to make. For search & destroy for instance I made a map specifically for it that took just over a week and it would be the kind of objective you could make for 24p, so it's a good bet that in 4 weeks you could make a detailed 24 player territory map in RO2 (depending on your skills and how fast you work).

Currently an RO2 territory map takes like 3 months or more. So it comes down to standards that people come to expect, player count, and of course gameplay, Insurgency uses an old engine and you can get away with your map looking empty and not doing much with the terrain, you do that in RO2 and people will comment that it looks dated because they have maps for the same game and wonder why they aren't on par with each other, in RO2 objectives are a bit more impressive to assault rather than just a room. It happens with any game, I make maps for Mount & Blade and it takes me a fraction of the time that an RO2 map takes me, not because there's something the developers have done to hinder the process, it's just an older game and standards are lower and the gameplay is different.

So I hope for 32 players maximum for RO3, unless there's actually a need for more and not just because people demand a sequel have 'moar!'. I'm sure the reception of Apartments and Pavlov's would've been different at release if 32p was the maximum. I actually find most of the maps more enjoyable with less players and if anything Insurgency shows there is a market for an RO-style 32 player modern warfare game.
 
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I remember there was a server that hosted 64 player on huge maps only back in the closing days of the mod. Maps such as Perekop, Red God of War, Arad. That was a lot of fun because the maps were actually capable of taking this amount of players.
A map like Danzig/Apartments fails if you go for 64 players on it. Some really huge maps, imagine Arad as an infantry map, might even accept 128 players. Yet there is the server's capacity and ability to go with some many people. A lot of RO2/RS servers let you feel that they are not cut out for 64 players as the pings rise up and the whole experience goes down the drain in lagging.
If servers were capable of supporting 128 players and the maps were really huge - I mean HUGE, HADAYYUUMN! - it could be beastly fun to 40+ tank battles. But mapping a detailed map this big is indeed a heavy burden.

Thinking about my "little" changes to StalingradKessel, they took me several weeks already and it's just a few more rooms, a little more ambient lights - nothing special and still time flies in the SDK. :rolleyes:
 
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After Insurgency for a month the run speed in RO2 is way to fast. Vanilla IOM is wayy to slow... It doesnt really matter tho... the community of RO2 doesn't have the appetite for custom stuff. They like it for a wk or 2 then back to vanilla stuff. I am just glad for my 1st FPS I was blessed to be able to be a part of the Red Orchestra scene for a bit. RO3 won't come out for a looooooonnnnnngggg time. If IOM and In Country take off then I will be extremely happy. We will see.
 
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There's nothing faster about the movement speed in RO2 compared to Insurgency, I used to think there was a difference as well, but I put it down to everyone armed with automatics and spraying bullets so you take cover more and move a bit slower as the maps are quite cramped. But you can sprint just as fast as RO2, not in classic mode though.
 
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