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RELEASE: Realistic Armor Mutator - Armored Beasts

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ok, just one question to Sichartshofen
how did u decide which penetrating hit (that does not hit ammo or engine) is a one shot kill?

it is not realistic that a 88mm shell kills the t34 allways in one shot, while the t3485 needs 3 or 4 penetrating hits. there is not such a big difference between a penetrating 88mm shell and penetrating 85mm shell.
 
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I hate to say it, but i dont see this mutie working out untill SU-XX(X) and/or ISU-XX(X) tanks are added to the game, nomatter what you do, its going to be very unfair and boring/frustrating for players untill then.

I hope we see thouse added to the game soon, that will really do us all some big favours!


But allow me to answer some questions: Alot of people ask why its not working with other mutators, the answer is simple: to mutate a vehical, you have to remove it and replace it with one of your own, however, two mutators both trying to do this to the same object.. well, obviously theres going to be trouble! they cant BOTH replace it with their own version at the same time.

For this reason, you should never use two mutators that both try to effect the same things, it wont work! they will clash with unexpected results, and perhabs even crash the game if an infinate loop or buffer overflow happens (as both mutators fight over replacing an object).

You cant really do anything about it, not code wise, what you COULD do is merge mutators (with authors permission ofcourse), build them togeather into one mutator.
 
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I hate to say it, but i dont see this mutie working out untill SU-XX(X) and/or ISU-XX(X) tanks are added to the game, nomatter what you do, its going to be very unfair and boring/frustrating for players untill then.

I hope we see thouse added to the game soon, that will really do us all some big favours!


But allow me to answer some questions: Alot of people ask why its not working with other mutators, the answer is simple: to mutate a vehical, you have to remove it and replace it with one of your own, however, two mutators both trying to do this to the same object.. well, obviously theres going to be trouble! they cant BOTH replace it with their own version at the same time.

For this reason, you should never use two mutators that both try to effect the same things, it wont work! they will clash with unexpected results, and perhabs even crash the game if an infinate loop or buffer overflow happens (as both mutators fight over replacing an object).

You cant really do anything about it, not code wise, what you COULD do is merge mutators (with authors permission ofcourse), build them togeather into one mutator.


You are correct in that this ArmorBeasts mut appears to be "top heavy". Truthfully however, its not and its practical use is not dependent upon whether there is additional heavy Russian Armor implemented or not. The apparent bias written into the game now seems to favor the T-34/85, SU-76 and the Is-2.

The real and genuine problem it faces is its incompatibility with nearly ALL the other mutators and a number of maps out there. Including, but not only;
  • MutROHudPackage
  • MutROMapVariables
  • MutROTeamKill
  • WeaponSound716ID
The weapon sound mutator is totally shutdown by armorbeasts.. but I've been told its because they use the same routines. I disagree with that contention since the WeaponSound716ID mutator works with everything without so much as a hiccup.

The OTHER above mentioned mutators obviously do not use the same routines since they ALL work flawlessly with the WeaponSound716ID Mutator and are also adversely effected by the ArmorBeasts mutator in one way or another. Something else wrong is going on with this ArmorBeasts mutator. It is not well behaved.

Also, there are certain maps that ArmorBeasts screws up. Last but not least, in some maps if you leave the tank for whatever reason, when you get back in the tank the turret is inoperable. The re-loading is frozen in time. The tanks run, the machine gun(s) work, the turret turns but the main gun is dead.

ArmorBeasts needs to be thoroughly tested for compatibility with maps and other mutators. Else, its usefulness is going to be quite short.

I like the ArmorBeasts mutator myself but in its present state of "completion", it is impossible to use.
 
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I cant get this MUT to work help please!

I cant get this MUT to work help please!

Hello everyone, well i cant seem to get this mut to work, iv put the files into my system directory, and iv put the barashka file in the maps folder and its still not showing as available under the practice mod mutator selector.
Was the download pack suppose to come with any INI files or anything, all i got with it was 2 system files and a map file, the map file showed up in practice mod but the MUT did not, so there is something wrong, every other MUT iv tried worked after wards. So If anyone can help me get this thing working it would be muchly appreciated.
 
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With this mutator on is it possible for the IS2 to get 1 shot kills on the Tiger? I was playing on a server over the weekend, I asked but not sure if they were running this or not. When playing Konigsplatz once the Tiger got backed into the corner it could never get out every time you turned the corner I got turned into tomato sauce. Destroyed the game play. I have never seen this happen before so I am assuming they were trying this mut. Which I am all for this in open play like Arad. but combined arms maps it is a little iffy especially when it is the only tank that you have.
Again not sure if this mut was even being used but I had never seen that before.
 
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it is not realistic that a 88mm shell kills the t34 allways in one shot, while the t3485 needs 3 or 4 penetrating hits. there is not such a big difference between a penetrating 88mm shell and penetrating 85mm shell.

Theres a major difference in penentrating power hense more damage.

IS2 to get 1 shot kills on the Tiger?
This should be true except on an angled Tiger as many tank crews have reported the Is-2 should only be penetrated at 500m and if angled against 88mm rounds should deflect. I think the Tiger should get its APCR ammuntion for later maps.
 
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I just played this on MUDDY TIGERS*armoredbeastsmutator* server

pretty sweet!!!

Good job to the maker hope to see more hopefully APCR for Tiger I or T-34:) .

a suggest to look into
-Turret speed on tiger I- alot of places say its a bit quicker


Ummm, ArmoredBeasts does NOT work with Muddy Tigers. That map has its own built-in Mutator.
 
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I took me a while to figure this out - it occurs the mod requres files that are not in the package.

Installation guide:

0. You MAY (but not requred) need the WebAdmin Mutator enabled - it is described in the sticky posts in the Dedicated server forums section.
If you don't have it, no problem (but i will not expalin it here) but you are allready missing REALLY easy admin panel. Moreover, if you do not have it running, then you cannot say you managed to set up server properly ;)

1. First download a map Black Day in July http://www.maporchestra.com/downloads/p13_sectionid/23/p13_fileid/274
- get the .zip file
- unpack it keeping diretory structure
- upload files to the game server keeping directory structure (so thath contets of the Maps will go to server's Maps diretcory and so on)
- you can add map to the mapcycle :D

2. download .zip of the mutator - that is a link in the first post of this thread - in example ArmoredBeasts.1.1.zip
3. unpack the downloaded file somwhere on your hdd and read the unpacked Readme.txt file for more detailed instructions
4. upload .rom file to server Maps/ directory (where other .rom files are...)
5. upload .u and .ucl files to the server System/ directory
6. turn off your game server, and start it again
7. after map load go to admin panel of your server
8. from the top menu choose Current
9. from the menu from left that just appeared choose Mutators
10. on the middle of the screen you should see your mutator name, the checkboxes and the name of ArmoredBeasts
11. select checkbox near the ArmoredBeasts and press the Set Selected Mutators button
12. your mutator should be displayed now on the top of the page among other mutators (if they exist), and the checkbox should be selected
13. now go to the left menu and click Current Game
14. from the menu choose map and press Switch, wait a few moments, the server changes the map.
15. okay, server should be back online now, just to make sure that everything is allright go again to Mutators
16. check if the checkbox is still selected - if yes, then mutator is working rpoperly, otherwise something is wrong and you will have to manually see the server logs for error messages that may help to figure out the problem
17. enyoy and start tweaking (but pleas make backups)
 
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I took me a while to figure this out - it occurs the mod requres files that are not in the package.

Installation guide:

0. You MAY (but not requred) need the WebAdmin Mutator enabled - it is described in the sticky posts in the Dedicated server forums section.
If you don't have it, no problem (but i will not expalin it here) but you are allready missing REALLY easy admin panel. Moreover, if you do not have it running, then you cannot say you managed to set up server properly ;)

1. First download a map Black Day in July http://www.maporchestra.com/downloads/p13_sectionid/23/p13_fileid/274
- get the .zip file
- unpack it keeping diretory structure
- upload files to the game server keeping directory structure (so thath contets of the Maps will go to server's Maps diretcory and so on)
- you can add map to the mapcycle :D

2. download .zip of the mutator - that is a link in the first post of this thread - in example ArmoredBeasts.1.1.zip
3. unpack the downloaded file somwhere on your hdd and read the unpacked Readme.txt file for more detailed instructions
4. upload .rom file to server Maps/ directory (where other .rom files are...)
5. upload .u and .ucl files to the server System/ directory
6. turn off your game server, and start it again
7. after map load go to admin panel of your server
8. from the top menu choose Current
9. from the menu from left that just appeared choose Mutators
10. on the middle of the screen you should see your mutator name, the checkboxes and the name of ArmoredBeasts
11. select checkbox near the ArmoredBeasts and press the Set Selected Mutators button
12. your mutator should be displayed now on the top of the page among other mutators (if they exist), and the checkbox should be selected
13. now go to the left menu and click Current Game
14. from the menu choose map and press Switch, wait a few moments, the server changes the map.
15. okay, server should be back online now, just to make sure that everything is allright go again to Mutators
16. check if the checkbox is still selected - if yes, then mutator is working rpoperly, otherwise something is wrong and you will have to manually see the server logs for error messages that may help to figure out the problem
17. enyoy and start tweaking (but pleas make backups)

And if your server got mapvoting enabled and you want to use the mutator you must make sure that you add the mutator to

Default -> Default votingconfig , otherwise the mutators will be lost at a map change that changed because people voted for it.
 
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- 76.2mm F-34 now has realistic penetration. It will no longer penetrate a Tiger side or rear at 1000 meters. Now you must be with in 100 meters.

What ammo are you giving the T34? The BR-350B and the BR-350P AT ammo would both go through a Tigers side armor at 400-500M. The 350P would penetrate about 90mm 80% of the time at 500M. Most 76mm class weapons, even the American 75mm would penetrate it at around 400M from the flank.. even the 57mm AT gun would do that with its dedicated AT ammo...

Most of your numbers seem within reason but this one is way off..
 
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What ammo are you giving the T34? The BR-350B and the BR-350P AT ammo would both go through a Tigers side armor at 400-500M. The 350P would penetrate about 90mm 80% of the time at 500M. Most 76mm class weapons, even the American 75mm would penetrate it at around 400M from the flank.. even the 57mm AT gun would do that with its dedicated AT ammo...

Most of your numbers seem within reason but this one is way off..
Soviet tests with real Tigers prove otherwise. :rolleyes:

The first live fire tests against the Tiger E armor conducted by NIIBT at Kubinka April 25 - 30th 1943.
The 76.2mm F-34 failed to penetrate the Tiger E side hull and turret armor at 200 meters.

During the second live fire tests conducted in September 1943 the 76.2mm F-22 USV, F-34,
and Zis-3 reportedly failed to penetrate the Tiger E side hull and turret armor at 500 meters & 100 meters.
 
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I would only say that the reload times for the Tiger should be a bit longer, maybe 10 seconds. True it would be very quick from the nearest ammo store but once you run out of that the onces at the bottem of the tank will take alot longer to reload.

Actually, the ready ammunition would be loaded a LOT quicker than currently modelled..probably 5 seconds.. maybe 4 by a good loader.. the "non ready" ammo that is stored adjascent to the turren on the sponsons is a matter of leaning down and pulling one out..you don't need to go for a walk.. and whenever the gun isn't actively firing, the loader would be replenishing the ready rack..

Load times are critical in here because its a POINT based system..and that is very hard to fudge properly..

The initial posts lists a T34 penetration of a Tiger I at 100M.. thats grossly innacurate.. 400-500M would be more realistic..

Keep in mind that "Penetration" means different things to different people..

Some tests ruled a result "Penetration" is there was ANY penetration some of the time..while other testing required full diameter penetration all the time..
 
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Its called realism there are countless accounts of the 88mm L56 wrecking T-34'85's with 1 shot at even extremely long ranges. The T-34/85 however had to get closer than 500 meters to have a chance to kill the Tiger I so it was not a good match for the Tiger I which was why the Soviet Union relied on heavy assualt guns like the ISU-152 and SU-85 to kill Hitler's zoo of animal tanks until the IS-2 was developed.

The T34/85 could ill a tiger at close to 1000M IF it hit the side armor at 90'.. not 100% of the time..but more often than not.. The T34 76 could kill it at ~500M with a square side shot..

Now, if you are talking FRONTALLY..then you are on the right track..

As for the Panther, its penetration was similar to the Tiger I's L56 except when the ranges got out to extreme.. the extra weight of the L56 helped at the last 25% of the range.
 
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The initial posts lists a T34 penetration of a Tiger I at 100M.. thats grossly innacurate.. 400-500M would be more realistic..

Keep in mind that "Penetration" means different things to different people..
.

Russians penetration tests required 75% of the shell to be behind the armor plate. If they report their 76.2mm guns failed then they failed.

The T34 M44 could penetrate the Tigers side at 500+ meters. The T34 M41-M43 could not.

For those still interested: Something new is in the works.
 
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The 75% of penetrations requirement can be recalculated into correction to penetration tables, too. It would transform into few percent of penetration more. Reliable data from penetration tables if of course very important. But not definite. We need to remember that the tanks on the front were not shooting into test plates, but other tanks. With different armour type, quality, hardness. With frontline ammo. So it's important to corelate the penetration data with actual war experience and historical reports of combat effectivenes against enemy tanks. Tiger armor was top quality, it could be possibly rated higher than test plates and perform better. On the other hand there were various problems with quality of Panther armor. And so on. Some parts in tanks were casted, not rolled. So the definite criterium, if something should or should not penetrate, is not penetration table, but rather reports of pefrormance in combat. If there are reliable reports that Tiger side armor was penetrated by some gun/ammo, at some range, then it should be so. If there are reports that it was not, then shouldn't, even if tables says something different. There are such factors like armor quality, ammo quality, such phenomenas like shot shutter, when a projectile which penetrates from 1000m, breaks and fails to penetrate when fired at 500m ! (when it should penetrate by table).

By the way, I'd like to say that I have offered to help Sichartshofen with the Armored Beasts mod. Few months ago I planned to to do my own real armour mut, but have abandoned work becouse of some health problems. Now I see he did good work already and I think it's better to help than make second mut. I hope we could improve it further and add some features. It probbably won't be quick, as I'm working slowly now, but I believe eventually we make the game better.

Some of features I think of, beside the armor, penertation and reload times changes done by Sichartshofen (although I'd like to discuss some numbers).

First I'd like to add corrected penetration/ricochet calculations (thing of fundamental importance - angling the tank would not work as good as now, currently the effect of angle on penetration is highly exaggerated. No PzIV against T-34, or T-34 against Tiger, or Tiger against IS-2 would be safe by simply angling the tank at 45deg as currently. Not that it won't work anymore at all, but effect would be realistic and reduced. Best angle would be about 35deg which would increase protection by about 30-40%, and not by 170-240% like now !!! :-O

Then try to make separate armor rating for turret (mantlet maybe?). Is-2 front hull should be virtually immune against anything, and Panther hull nearly immune against everything with exeption of IS-2. On the other hand turrets in both tanks are much less protected. The Tiger just the opposite - hull is more vunerable than the turret.

We also need a more realistic damage modeling (reworking of ammo hitboxes, addition of fuel tank and crew hitboxes, now every penetrating shot should give some chance of crew death/vehicle explosion, based on penetrating power, direct hit in crew hitbox means death of the crewmen, hit in ammo or fuel means vehicle explosion as currently).

I would also personally like to add separate commander station to tanks very much ! The current views would be splitted, gunner station would get optics view, with commander station having cupola, external and binoculars views. Game could be still played as usually, even solo tanking possible still without changes, just switching stations instead of views between gunner and commander (even faster...). But also full crews with gunner and commander would be possible (one shooting, and the other commanding, keeping situational awarness, and even directing fire (it's better to see in binoculars if the shot was too short or too long, than from gunner station). I believe it should be easy to add one station, only splitting views and controls, but don't know yet how (don't know how crew stations are realised - any help appreciated).

The time will show which of those plans will be realised. And it's Sichartshofen's mod so he will decide. I believe all are possible and even not hard to code, though somewhat laborous. For sure it's won't be all at once, but one or few at a time in succesive versions.

My personal goal is of course realism. Any map/game inbalance should be IMO neutralised by addition of proper amounts and types of tanks to a map. If German tanks are better, then Russians have simply more tanks. Just like it was in real life.
(and with addition of separate commander station to tanks, the number of players in game could be leveled, because T-34/76 would have NOT this feature. So Germans could play 2-3 (driver, gunner, commander) man crews with Russians playing 1-2 (driver, gunner) man crews - Russians have more tanks but German tanks have better situational awarness)
If there has to be same number of tanks, then use similar and "naturally balanced" ones, T-34 and PzIVs only for example.
Even with realistic performance, on medium and small maps T-34/85 and Tiger would be quite balanced anyway (let alone against the IS-2). Exept Tiger in hull-down if we modeled real thickness of Tiger's mantlet, being in fact not 100mm but varying betwen 120 to 160mm, with parts being weaker in optics area ;-) but even then you can outmanever it or hit it in a 100mm hull, or disable Tiger's cannon with few hits in mantlet... well if we manage to model cannon malfunctions ;-).
Panter would be little harder, but still possible to kill by <500...1000m turret hits fromT-34/85 (the hull being rather immune) and even hull hits from IS-2.
So honestly, I don't see any unbalance at all at all but most huge and flat maps. Only little more smart tactics and COOPERATION would be needed, than now ;-)

P.S. Two things I forget to mention. Well, one, the second is not sure, I have to find a way to realise it first. So one thing is that I'd like to make tank commander to exit the tank over the turret or over the engine deck. So he could easily get on the tank, and stand on the turret roof for better observation with binoculars. He could also ride on the tank behind the turret, only have to get in and get out from the commander's station and he's on. He could try to command a tank and spot enemies for those inside from there, untill there is no real separate commander's station. If he want's to get out as usually, he swich to driver or mg and leaves from there, no problem.
With help of Sichartshofen I know already how to compile a mut and at last can test my ideas in practice. Did a simple mut to check it. The exit to turret roof or engine plate works very nicely, only there is some problems with turret hitboxes, crewman after exit sometimes stand on them hanging in the air 3 feets over the hatch. Probably this is why it's not used in stock game ;-) but it should be resolved soon. Now with mut I can get into test Tiger tank, switch to commander's station, exit and I'm on the turret, by simply changing exit coordinates of turret station. Little thing but so much joy and very usefull :)
 
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