RELEASE: Realistic Armor Mutator - Armored Beasts

[Nivek]

People talk about improving the tiger but don't realize that the IS-2 has more armor and a better gun than the tiger. As matter of fact an IS2 cannon can penetrate the front of a tiger at 1000-1500m. The IS2 has more armor than the tiger not only in the front but EVERYWHERE. On the other hand a tiger should be able to penetrate anywhere on a t34 at 2000m.

Also the t34 should have to get within 100m of a tiger to penetrate it's frontal armor. T34's had like a 0.20 k/d ratio against tigers or something. Only the real stupid tiger crews got killed by t34's.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

I know I am not the one making the mutator, but I think toning down the angling would be a better suggestion than eliminating it. Angling should still have some effect on the shells. Currently in the game, angling seems a bit overdone. Going the complete opposite (ie eliminating it on all but those three tanks) seems almost as bad. Lessen the effect seems like a better solution.

Just my opinion

 

[Sichartshofen]

Angling is not totally eliminated, it is toned down heavily. It just won't happen against the more powerful tanks against the lightlier armored tanks. For example, the 75mm L48 will never bounce off a T34 unless you hit it at a completely ridiculous angled like 10 degrees. For some tanks angling is not even necessary against the weaker PzIV F1 and PzIII L.

 

[Quietus]

I know I am not the one making the mutator, but I think toning down the angling would be a better suggestion than eliminating it. Angling should still have some effect on the shells. Currently in the game, angling seems a bit overdone. Going the complete opposite (ie eliminating it on all but those three tanks) seems almost as bad. Lessen the effect seems like a better solution.

Just my opinion

I 100% agree with every sentence.

 

[Quietus]

Angling is not totally eliminated, it is toned down heavily. It just won't happen against the more powerful tanks against the lightlier armored tanks. For example, the 75mm L48 will never bounce off a T34 unless you hit it at a completely ridiculous angled like 10 degrees. For some tanks angling is not even necessary against the weaker PzIV F1 and PzIII L.

Sounds pretty good. But I still have doubts about how all these realistic changes will play out in regards to being still fun to play for the Russians on pre IS2 available maps. I'm specifically thinking about of course how Orel & BDJ will be for the Russians seeing as they don't have their "animal killer" SU152. It's already hard enough as it is with the unrealistic tank damage/penetration to get players who want to play on the Russian side. I think your mutator will be swallowed alot easier when (if) Russians get the SU152. We'll see I guess.

 

[Sichartshofen]

Sounds pretty good. But I still have doubts about how all these realistic changes will play out in regards to being still fun to play for the Russians on pre IS2 available maps. I'm specifically thinking about of course how Orel & BDJ will be for the Russians seeing as they don't have their "animal killer" SU152. It's already hard enough as it is with the unrealistic tank damage/penetration to get players who want to play on the Russian side. I think your mutator will be swallowed alot easier when (if) Russians get the SU152. We'll see I guess.

You will certainly find the KV more useful on BDJ and Orel.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

Angling is not totally eliminated, it is toned down heavily. It just won't happen against the more powerful tanks against the lightlier armored tanks. For example, the 75mm L48 will never bounce off a T34 unless you hit it at a completely ridiculous angled like 10 degrees. For some tanks angling is not even necessary against the weaker PzIV F1 and PzIII L.

Oh, very interesting. Hope I get a chance to try this soon then.

 

[Skunkken.Kuovi]

Sounds more like someone is worried that he won't be able to make his T34 invincible.

Wow. Sounds like you are a person who should just code the mod and let someone else do the PR. Just explain why do you make it so that just three of the tanks benefit from angling and the rest act like conctrete slabs? You know, the others tanks have angles and slopes in their armor too.

 

[Sichartshofen]

Wow. Sounds like you are a person who should just code the mod and let someone else do the PR. Just explain why do you make it so that just three of the tanks benefit from angling and the rest act like conctrete slabs? You know, the others tanks have angles and slopes in their armor too.

Angling is not totally eliminated, it is toned down heavily. It just won't happen against the more powerful tanks against the lightlier armored tanks. For example, the 75mm L48 will never bounce off a T34 unless you hit it at a completely ridiculous angled like 10 degrees. For some tanks angling is not even necessary against the weaker PzIV F1 and PzIII L.

I hate to quote myself.

Examples
- 75mm L48 will not bounce off the T34 because it just didn't happen below 1200 meters.
- T34 does not even need to angle against the PzIV F1 and PzIII

 

[Amizaur]

Sounds pretty good. But I still have doubts about how all these realistic changes will play out in regards to being still fun to play for the Russians on pre IS2 available maps. I'm specifically thinking about of course how Orel & BDJ will be for the Russians seeing as they don't have their "animal killer" SU152

Just make it pure PzIV vs T-34. Or two Tigers against 20 T-34s ;-) There is also absolutely no problem with adding Su-152 or any other tank to the game - only need 3D model.

It's already hard enough as it is with the unrealistic tank damage/penetration to get players who want to play on the Russian side. I think your mutator will be swallowed alot easier when (if) Russians get the SU152. We'll see I guess.

Using it is voluntary


a very basic beta relase to try:

http://www.amizaur.za.pl/files/ArmoredBeastsLite_v2.0_beta1.rar

feedback welcomed...

P.S. would be great if someone set a dedicated public serwer with it.... we only tested it on "listen" serwers...

 

[Mike_Nomad]

Installed and working well.... now if it only worked with MuddyTigers.

 

[Amizaur]

Probably it should be merged ? Are they using own mod with Muddy Tigers or something ?

P.S. I see, there are custom textures ect. used. I have to contact with authors, we could make merged version then of map with mut or mut dedicated for map. I suppose the scenario would be much more interesting with increased realism . Have to test red tracers for AP shells in winter scenetry, they should be more visible on snow background than default ones...

 

[Mike_Nomad]

Probably it should be merged ? Are they using own mod with Muddy Tigers or something ?

Not sure what's going on.... ViViD is a good guy, he'll help you... he's the author.

 

[Teapot]

Very interested to see how this mutator develops, the EFO realism league may include this to balance out armor battles a little more.

 

[Amizaur]

OK, I have test version of Muddy Tigers working with AB mod. But the custom ViViD's textures are lost of course. To have both - AB code and Muddy Tigers artwork, we'd have to merge the mods.

I'd love to test it online NOW, but I think I shouldn't publish modified version without author's permission.

P.S. About the faster shells - we'll see. If it causes problems, we will revert it to 0.5 (or look closer at collision detection business). Even if we had to, I don't think it's a serious issue - what is important for realism is the trajectory, time of flight is less important. The speedfudge parameter which allows to modify speed without changing trajectory was very good idea.
I noticed problems with collision detection even with default speedfudge=0.5 :-/ sometimes the shell is not detected as it hits vehicle, but fly trough it and is detected on the other side, when it is going from inside out... :-| and it's with 0.5 scale... side/angle detection routines had to correct that. Increased speed doesn't seem to increase number of such incidents too much in 2-3 people games. We will see what happens in large games.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but PTRD bullets were not slowed down in game, they are really fast and they didn't cause any problems (or so little that it went unnoticed)...?

 

[Sichartshofen]

I'll start a new thread with the change log and mirrors.

Can a mod please lock this.

 

[Cnnbs]

I've read somewhere that only about %20 or %10 of tigers were destroyed by other tanks.Most of them were lost due to airraids and mechanical failures(hence wittman lost 1 tiger due to mechanical failure and abondoned the tank but she got repaired later afaik) or AT guns.I've also read that the western allies sacrificing 8-10 tanks to kill a tiger was official tactic or was acceptable.Besides tiger saved the lives of her crew.Most of the crews were able to escape relatively unharmed from a destroyed tiger,unlike the t-34s or shermans which earned the nickname "tommycookers" in axis.

For the panther i didnt read much but i've seen a combat footage in documantery "Shooting War",where a m8 pershing-one of the best guns allieds had afaik- hit panther repeatedly about 300 meters and after 3rd or 4th shot it started to burning(not an explosion) and the last crew trying to bail was stuck in the hatch(probably cut in 2 , legs inside turret rest outside the turret :/ )
In conclusion Tigers and Panthers are realisticly represented with this Mutator in quality as far as i've read.

 

[Cnnbs]

http://www.okw.wwiionline.com/tigerfibel/4.htm

 

[Recce]

I've read somewhere that only about %20 or %10 of tigers were destroyed by other tanks.Most of them were lost due to airraids and mechanical failures(hence wittman lost 1 tiger due to mechanical failure and abondoned the tank but she got repaired later afaik) or AT guns.

Tanks tended to be destroyed by anti-tank guns, rather than tanks.
AT-guns would have been cheaper to produce and cheaper to train the crews.

I've also read that the western allies sacrificing 8-10 tanks to kill a tiger was official tactic or was acceptable.Besides tiger saved the lives of her crew.

The 8-to-1 ratio that gets quoted is more an attrition rate, rather than a suicide charge by 10 tanks on mass.
It's one way people rate tanks, the cost of the tank against it's rate of attrition. But this doesn't take into account cost of training and supporting the tanks in the field, or the crew surviability.
Anyway, when attacking, you always want a numercial superiority.

 

[Moz]

Probably it should be merged ? Are they using own mod with Muddy Tigers or something ?

P.S. I see, there are custom textures ect. used. I have to contact with authors, we could make merged version then of map with mut or mut dedicated for map. I suppose the scenario would be much more interesting with increased realism . Have to test red tracers for AP shells in winter scenetry, they should be more visible on snow background than default ones...

feel free to take my classes/skins and modify their parents so that they reference your new vehicles plus a checkreplace mut. I have no problem with it. Just don't change the skins to something stupid otherwise people might think I made them and be confused.