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Rebalancing pistols: unique, healthy niches

Holy dear mother of visual aesthetics, MY EYES, how they BURN.
Protip, folks: Do not highlight your long posts with bold red and bold blue. Use light blue, light green, pink, light orange, very light grey if you must, just anything light. #FF0000 and #0000FF are EYE-STINGING.

I kind of love the .44 Magnum's change in DarkFalz post. Makes it far deadlier than the deagle, and the deagle drops down to the role of 'in case of panic emergency, use me', seeing as it cushions the SS and allows the user to have merciful shots, whereas the .44 magnum will literally make mincemeat out of any creature under Fleshpound (for Scrakes, dual-wield .44 magnums will kill them in a heartbeat at lvl.5-6 with Dark Falz idea). Overall, I like it.
Wait, really? Because that wasn't the goal, the goal was to make it a starter budget option, since currently the only thing filling that role is the LAR. Does a Sharp's headshot bonus really make it strong enough to crush everything like that? Because unfortunately that's not gonna fly, it's unbalanced.
 
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I kind of love the .44 Magnum's change in DarkFalz post. Makes it far deadlier than the deagle, and the deagle drops down to the role of 'in case of panic emergency, use me', seeing as it cushions the SS and allows the user to have merciful shots, whereas the .44 magnum will literally make mincemeat out of any creature under Fleshpound (for Scrakes, dual-wield .44 magnums will kill them in a heartbeat at lvl.5-6 with Dark Falz idea). Overall, I like it.
Isn't that what they do already? 11 shots in no time at all :D
 
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I dunno, I still feel like .44 should penetrate more.
Not really for realism sake, but it jusss FEELS RIGHT.
I'm just bein a dork tho :p I do like that suggestion in general
now that I'm typing this I can't check to see what he said about the Mk 23, but I think the Mk 23 should lose its penetration.

Oooh went back and read it. Decrease Mk 23 damage to 55 and remove penetration YOU'RE MY HERO.
 
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I dunno, I still feel like .44 should penetrate more.
Not really for realism sake, but it jusss FEELS RIGHT.
I'm just bein a dork tho :p I do like that suggestion in general
now that I'm typing this I can't check to see what he said about the Mk 23, but I think the Mk 23 should lose its penetration.

Oooh went back and read it. Decrease Mk 23 damage to 55 and remove penetration YOU'RE MY HERO.
I'm convinced that DarkFalz, poosh, and scary ghost are wizards.

But yeah, I know what you mean about the .44. If the pistols were to be rebalanced based on my/DarkFalz's idea, it's just easiest to make the .44 the budget pistol because it would require the least drastic changes.

Also now I'm thinking the Flare Revolver should weigh 3 blocks (and Duals 5 or 6 blocks). That way it's still usable as a single backup weapon most of the time, and the Firebug can still use Dual Flares with the Trenchgun or Husk launcher, but not with the Flamethrower, and duals would get forced out of a lot of the loadouts they saw excessive use in as an offperk weapon.
 
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New to the forums here... saw this post and it peaked my interest.

Balance imput:

M9 9mm dualies/single: give it a laser sight. it would make it a marksman's weapon and a good companion to the lever action rifle, m14, or crossbow. adding a laser to it would make it a great hip fire weapon for panic situations, and at the same time would improve the dualies to a point of being a venerable option as opposed to the neglected afterthought it is now.

as a matter of function the m9 is like the glock is to CS games: a skill weapon that is a reliable fall back gun if there is no other choice, that while useless in the hands of someone unskilled, can be effective if used properly... say in the hands of a KF marksman.

MK23: it has better recoil frames and in general is the best pistol in the game. it has enough power that it can head shot big enemies and kill them, but has high enough capacity for spamming on crawlers and crap enemies.
its fine as it is, though it would look cooler with a silencer

Magnum revolver: It is an inferior weapon overall when compared to the handcannon, and dualies are a terrible idea.
give it greater penetration. this weapon is only useful if you can hit multiple opponents greater than a handcannon.
give it richochet. this weapon should have a richocheting bullet that give the player the ability to shoot around corners, or bounce them off the wall or ground at enemies; this of course would do less damage, but would be useful.
my reasoning behind that is because the revolver has no niche. the 9mm is a cheap spammer, the mk23 is balance, and the hand cannon is over the top powerful. Why not?

Handcannons... well, they're the basis for pistol balance so they're perfect.

as for rifles...


LAR: you can spam the fire button and interrupt the cocking animation, and it is dirt cheap. Give the rifle 5 more ammo capacity, remove the jenky fast firing effect, and make the rifle $450. done.

Bullpup: a hi capacity spamming assault rifle that doesn't cost alot. hmm. nothing like the hi cap spammy lever action or the m3, or the mac10.
Let it be.
 
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give it richochet. this weapon should have a richocheting bullet that give the player the ability to shoot around corners, or bounce them off the wall or ground at enemies; this of course would do less damage, but would be useful.
Is ricochet even possible with a hitscan weapon?

LAR: you can spam the fire button and interrupt the cocking animation, and it is dirt cheap. Give the rifle 5 more ammo capacity, remove the jenky fast firing effect, and make the rifle $450. done.
Whoa, can't do that. The LAR is currently the only weapon with a base cost low enough to make it affordable for any perk with spawn cash only. That's an important role; one previously shared by the Machete and Axe, back when they were 100 and 150 respectively.

Bullpup: a hi capacity spamming assault rifle that doesn't cost alot. hmm. nothing like the hi cap spammy lever action or the m3, or the mac10.
Let it be.
You're right, it is nothing like the LAR or the MAC10.
What M3?
 
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I still think Falz had the best idea. Penetration for the Handcannon, spawn budget and headshots for the .44, headshots and laser sight for the MK23. Flare remains as-is except for a 1 point weight increase (2 for duals) and reduced spare ammo capacity.

I'd like to see the laser sight's whole beam be visible to make it easier to line up the shots. The one on the M14 only shows the dot on the target, which is sometimes hard to track when it disappears from landing to either side of the enemy's bobbing head.
 
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Is ricochet even possible with a hitscan weapon?

Not with hitscan, no, but with a projectile, sure. it would take minimal programming to achieve.

Whoa, can't do that. The LAR is currently the only weapon with a base cost low enough to make it affordable for any perk with spawn cash only. That's an important role; one previously shared by the Machete and Axe, back when they were 100 and 150 respectively.

then perhaps we need a higher tier rifle, like the hunting rifle, so that the lever action and the crossbow aren't the only viable rifles. m14 is weak and exorbitantly expensive, and the m99 is fkin nuts. the thing is, the lever action is pretty OP with the jerky anims and the high damage. there probably wont be another rifle, but if there is, this needs nerfing.

You're right, it is nothing like the LAR or the MAC10.
What M3?

sorry, the normal shotgun. looked like a M3 to me. on that note, leave the bullpup alone, it fits its niche perfectly.
 
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Oh you mean the shotgun? Yeah I think that's an M3.
I can't belive I forgot that, I ran through all the weapons in my head to see if there were any M3s and I forgot the one weapon that actually is an M3.
I just figged you were talking about the M4 since you were doing a comparison with the Bullpup.
I can appreciate somebody that uses the firearm names, but some might be annoyed by it :(
 
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then perhaps we need a higher tier rifle, like the hunting rifle, so that the lever action and the crossbow aren't the only viable rifles. m14 is weak and exorbitantly expensive
Oh boy. Uh, Gladius, you wanna handle this one? I can't actually explain why the M14 is an excellent rifle, I'm no good with it.

And come to think of it, the Shotgun may actually be an M3. I'm horrible at firearms identification though.
 
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then perhaps we need a higher tier rifle, like the hunting rifle, so that the lever action and the crossbow aren't the only viable rifles. m14 is weak and exorbitantly expensive, and the m99 is fkin nuts.

m14 is weak and exorbitantly expensive


m14 is weak


weak

d91.gif


Oh lawd. Look away children. This isn't gonna be pretty.
 
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d91.gif


Oh lawd. Look away children. This isn't gonna be pretty.

Just gotta love the geeky mock posts. btw, does anyone even know what movie this is from? i do, but its really good. hint: antonio banderez is the bad guy.

ANYWAY, lets look at the stats shall we?

Weapon Damage Fire rate
(sec) DPS Reload time
(sec) DPS after
reload

Lever-action rifle 140 0.9 156 6.7 (0.67
 
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I'm curious as to the movie now.

But anyway, determining the capabilities of a weapon requires crunching a LOT of numbers, and your stats there don't factor in a lot of important details. Headshot multiplier, magazine size (and thus, single mag damage potential), and you're looking at their base stats rather than what you would get from the Sharpshooter's perk bonuses.

An unperked headshot from the LAR is 280 base damage. One from the M14 is 180. So, you're right, the damage per shot is higher for the LAR.
But, the M14 has double the magazine size, quadruple the fire rate, and when reloading from 0 to full on each, the M14's reload time is half that of the LAR. This is all still looking at base stats, no Sharpshooter bonus. Of course, the LAR has the advantage of interruptible reload of individual rounds, making it the better option for sustained usage against many targets, but for sheer damage output against one bulky target, the M14 takes the trophy. Also note the laser sight, allowing for accurate hipfire shots, meaning you can aim better while on the move. It takes practice to get consistent headshots at a high rate with the M14, but once you can do that, its potential is incredible.

Now, comparing the Crossbow to the M14 is a bit trickier, so let's crunch some numbers.
KWq9M6S.png

So, the headshot damage of an unperked Crossbow is going to be 300x4.0 = 1200, which is very nice. Offperk, that's enough to two-shot a Fleshpound on 6-man Hard. Its fire rate is much slower than the other two though, so the Crossbow is very dependent on being able to kill in 1-2 shots. On Hard and below though, the Crossbow is pretty much the Sharpshooter's bread and butter.

But what about Suicidal and Hell on Earth?
Here, the resistances of the Scrake and Fleshpound come into play.
On all difficulties the Fleshpound has mostly the same resistances, and the Scrake has none. But, on Sui/HoE, they both gain a resistance to the Crossbow: half damage for the Scrake, and x0.35 (or about a third) for the Fleshpound. So offperk the Crossbow will now do only ~400 headshot damage to the Fleshpound, which is just big enough to make him rage and too small to do more than scratch him.

A level 6 Sharpshooter has an x2.4 headshot bonus for perked weapons (x1.5 for offperk weapons), so using a Crossbow against a Scrake would result in 300x4x2.4x0.5 = 1440, enough to two-shot it on Suicidal. On Hell on Earth it'll survive the second shot with 44 health left. A third headshot from pretty much any weapon will finish the job, and on either difficulty unless I'm mistaken you should be guaranteed a stun as well, so the Sharpshooter can still make quick work of the Scrake with a Crossbow.
But against the Fleshpound? A level 6 will deal 960 damage with a Crossbow headshot, which means 3 shots on Suicidal and 4 shots on Hell on Earth, and the Fleshpound doesn't get stunned. That's just not adequate.

Now, the M14. With this, on any difficulty, the Scrake has no resistance and the Fleshpound takes x0.75 damage. A L6 Sharp will dish out 80*2.25*2.4 = 432 damage per headshot against the Scrake and all smaller zeds, and 324 damage per headshot against the Fleshpound.

On HoE, the headshots to kill comes to 7 for the Scrake and 10 for the Fleshpound. That's pretty high, but keep in mind you can empty the M14's 20-round magazine in 5 seconds flat. With the way the rifle handles it would be preposterous to get all 20 shots to be headshots firing at max rate, but with enough practice I'd say it's fair to be able to get at least half of them, or 95% of them with more paced shots.
So you could probably kill the Scrake in ~3 seconds and the Fleshpound in ~6 seconds. This makes the M14 about equal to the Crossbow against these two on Suicidal, but superior on Hell on Earth.
But on top of all that, the M14 can also mop the floor with all the smaller zeds, while the Crossbow would need a good backup weapon.

So, for Hard and below, dat Crossbow is where it's at. For Sui+, get yoself an M14. And for both of them: practice, practice, practice.

If you honestly read that whole thing, you have my thanks.

And for your future reference when comparing weapons and such, here's the thread with a download link to the PDF that has all these numbers I'm crunching.
 
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Holy dear mother of visual aesthetics, MY EYES, how they BURN.
Protip, folks: Do not highlight your long posts with bold red and bold blue. Use light blue, light green, pink, light orange, very light grey if you must, just anything light. #FF0000 and #0000FF are EYE-STINGING.


Wait, really? Because that wasn't the goal, the goal was to make it a starter budget option, since currently the only thing filling that role is the LAR. Does a Sharp's headshot bonus really make it strong enough to crush everything like that? Because unfortunately that's not gonna fly, it's unbalanced.

Technically speaking, the .44 already does that, this update does it even better, allowing users to use it. Overall, I see no problem with this and it's balanced IMO, because after all, a lvl.6 SS already gets the Crossbow for free, and a lever-action, the SS' best friend, is only 150 pounds.

For a weapon that does that much damage and only costs that much, that's pretty insane, dontchathink?

Simply slapping Handguns on the side is unnecessary and silly overall, so yeah, kudos for Darkfalz idea.
 
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You got the numbers pretty much right except that a 6 man Hell on Earth Scrake only takes two headshots to kill with a perked Crossbow (don't ask me how the numbers work)

A lot of HoE Sharpshooters prefer the M14 because if you get headshots consistently, it pretty much becomes an unstoppable killing machine capable of steamrolling anything in it's way, including Scrakes and Fleshpounds.

Eldiablo1989 said:
200 vs 2500?

Sure, if you have alot of money to waste its a great weapon, but pretty much till the final round you'll be using a lever action for its high damage. frankly, for x12 the price, it is not worth it.

You're forgetting the fact that Sharpshooters get a big discount on the M14. At level 6, it only costs
 
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I'm curious as to the movie now.

Its called Assassins. Pretty decent movie.

That was really good coverage. I was just going to explain the mag size, the HS multiplier and the speed. (Along with maybe a vidya or two with the professional m14 users and their mystical witchcrafty ways.) Yours is so much better and really pretty thorough.

But now to blow everyone's mind. What if I told you you could use both the m14 and the LAR at the same time?
Spoiler!
 
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m14 isn't worth the time or the money when compared to them at the price and what you get for it, so yeah

lol

i think we need an intermediary rifle. nuff said.

The Mk23 isn't a rifle, but it functions as an intermediary between the crossbow and M14. The Mk23 can't kill strong trash with a single headshot like the crossbow can, nor can the Mk23 solo everything like the M14 can, but the Mk23 can certainly destroy every single trash specimen, and, in a pinch, kill a weakened scrake.
 
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