Rebalancing pistols: unique, healthy niches

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nd2spd

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I just assume the player uses a moon-clip or whatevs to reload the revolver quicker.
Reload time is still increased from what it is now, and 2 penetrations is kinda realistic right?
If you swapped penetration from HC & .44 then you would be less inclined to pay more for the HC which weighs more as-well.
 
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Althamus

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Mar 13, 2012
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There is currently an overlap between sharpshooter and commando, such that the sharpshooter is able to outperform the commando in the latter's designated role; a commando of some arbitrary skill level will always be outdone in terms of trash killing by a sharpshooter of the same level of skill. This is less apparent if you hold in places with long sight lines, but if you think of suburbia spawn or biotics lab spawn or anything else that's short - medium range, you'll see: the sharpshooter ends up killing more trash because pistols penetrate and reload more quickly than ARs.

It depends. If you play the commando like a sharpshooter, then no. If you play the commando like a noob, then yes.

I play commando like a sharpshooter that can't take big zeds and has a larger mag size. Headshot everything.
You can shoot as fast as you can with a sharpshooter, but if you don't quite kill it, you can drop 2 bullets into it's chest to finish it, and can carry 30 bullets per clip rather than 8.
Plus, if your team are doing what they should, you don't need to worry about husks upwards, so you never really have to swap gun, and can just shoot.

If you just hold M1 and point in the vague vicinity then sure, sharps are better.
 

moleculo

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Mar 2, 2013
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It depends. If you play the commando like a sharpshooter, then no. If you play the commando like a noob, then yes.

I play commando like a sharpshooter that can't take big zeds and has a larger mag size. Headshot everything.
You can shoot as fast as you can with a sharpshooter, but if you don't quite kill it, you can drop 2 bullets into it's chest to finish it, and can carry 30 bullets per clip rather than 8.
Plus, if your team are doing what they should, you don't need to worry about husks upwards, so you never really have to swap gun, and can just shoot.

If you just hold M1 and point in the vague vicinity then sure, sharps are better.
Eh, if you don't aim for head I'm pretty sure Commando is going to be better. Anyways, Commando's main job is killing anything smaller than gorefasts, and he's better than sharp at that already. But he could be a bit more better.
 

Althamus

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I'd argue a commandos main job is to kill anything under a siren (arguably anything under a scrake with the SCAR/FnFal), and he does that perfectly.

I really like the commando atm, and think he's a really well made class (although would prefer him to have a bit more variety in weaponry). I'd prefer to steer away from power creep if possible.
 

Bathtub Mannequin

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Spoiler!
 

moleculo

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I'd argue a commandos main job is to kill anything under a siren (arguably anything under a scrake with the SCAR/FnFal), and he does that perfectly.

I really like the commando atm, and think he's a really well made class (although would prefer him to have a bit more variety in weaponry). I'd prefer to steer away from power creep if possible.
Of course, but the power creep already happened. Unless rebalancing the game from the ground up is an option, best bring commando to the same level with the rest of the classes (you know, he fills his role, but is usually an inch behind the rest of the classes). Plus I doubt a total rebalance would be a smart idea at this point.

Agreed on commando weapons being stale...

Spoiler!
 

mrsirr

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Apr 12, 2013
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Over here, no not there, here.
Spoiler!
Actually what he said would translate into "If conditions X, which are irrelevant in terms of the argument you actually made are true, then you're correct."Showing that your argument only works in this specific case, which is, in fact, not a strawman.

Do you post that link alot because you post it when people don't make a strawman? :/
 

Captain Howel

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Aug 29, 2013
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Guarding the Super Missile
Also, second beretta defs 1 block. Then M99 sharp etc can spam 9mm. :p
Defs.

Dual 9mm should be 2 blocks. 4 blocks seems retarded for a mediocre pistol that only takes up one block as a single pistol. It only makes sense that 2 of them would equal twice the weight. 4 times the weight is just stupid, and even more so because there's not any real advantage to dual 9mm other than higher rate of fire from having two pistols, and of course the extra capacity, held in the second gun. And this is at the cost of accuracy/iron sight usage.
Fun fact: single 9mm weighs 0.
The 1 block of weight you start with comes from the grenades, even if you have 0 of them.

So if Dual 9mm was 2 blocks, having it would result in a total weight of 3, preventing the aforementioned M99 pairing.
 

Althamus

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"If you are as good as you need to be for my argument to make sense, my argument makes sense." Ehhhh. It really doesn't depend
 

Bathtub Mannequin

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mrsirr:
Spoiler!
 

Zerginfestor

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Oct 12, 2012
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I kind of love the .44 Magnum's change in DarkFalz post. Makes it far deadlier than the deagle, and the deagle drops down to the role of 'in case of panic emergency, use me', seeing as it cushions the SS and allows the user to have merciful shots, whereas the .44 magnum will literally make mincemeat out of any creature under Fleshpound (for Scrakes, dual-wield .44 magnums will kill them in a heartbeat at lvl.5-6 with Dark Falz idea). Overall, I like it.
 

Althamus

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If you are shooting a single bullet at each zed and then re-aiming for the next zed, you don't get spread. You just don't. The time it takes you to re-aim will negate this. It just does. Deal with it. It's only a problem if you're trying to put multiple bullets in the same head, which as you've said we're not concerned with because every decent gun for both sides decaps in one.

If there are 30 zeds coming at you, and you only wish to decap them, the commando can do it without reloading. A handcannon will have to reload 3 times to do this. This is the advantage of having a larger clip size. The AR will take longer to reload, but it reloads less often.

Also, most people have more difficulty headshotting crawlers than clots. I'm sure you'll swoop in with a "BUT I EXCEL AT ALL THINGS AND AM AWESOME" but most people aren't. Most people would prefer to just double tap a crawler than spend a second finding it's head, and in this scenario the AR would be better than a pistol.

And I'm done. You're clearly not understanding a word I'm saying.
 
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mrsirr

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Apr 12, 2013
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Over here, no not there, here.
whooole lotta words.

But no dude.
Look, I see what he's been saying and what not but you said "sharpshooter is better at killing trash than commando" What he said was, "if as a commando, you spam your guns, then sharpshooters are better at killing trash"
He didn't claim that was your arguement.
Check it out like this:
blue=your claim
he said
"if as a commando, you spam your guns, then sharpshooters are better at killing trash"
He didn't change your words, what he said was simply that your claim is only true under these circumstances
red= "these circumstances



What he said was like this
X=what you said
Y=not what you said

You said
"X is true"

He said
"X is true, only if Y"

A strawman would be
"Y is a dumb argument, you are wrong."

I'm not trying to be clever (Although I think you're giving yourself a bit too much credit in saying some kind of backfire took place)
I said that because among the internets, calling your opponent's arguement a strawman is the most common arguement, and it is often done en absencia of a strawman arguement.

Does incorrectly calling your opponent's argeuement a strawman count as a strawman?
 
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Bathtub Mannequin

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Jul 23, 2013
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Althamus:
Spoiler!
 

Dick Nation

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Dec 13, 2011
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Well, aside from all this grand cock-fencing that I couldn't really care much less about, I wonder if the answer is not in trying to balance the pistols around having their own class niche, but rather capitalizing on one that people frequently already bring up in discussions on pistols - true enough that I don't post here frequently (or almost at all), but I do lurk occasionally and one constant is that pistols are always being discussed. There's always somebody who thinks pistols should receive entirely their own perk or the like (which never gets a whole lot of traction, as it's really quite hard to think what gameplay role that could serve over any other perk), but mostly you just see people talking about using pistols to fill out holes in their inventory and giving them extra trash-killing power or a bit of roundedness to their game they might otherwise not have using solely on-perk weapons.

And in great relevance to this, one thing has changed notably in the game over the life of the pistols discussion - perk-neutral weapons now exist. What if the answer is to go down that road, and to rebalance pistols solely into that role, to where they can always be sensibly taken for a bit of extra oomph on any class because they have no particular allegiance? Or, even moreso, what if every class could get some kind of flavorful pistol bonus, to maintain the standard as a sidearm for anyone, and to make sure they balance well across all modes?
 

nd2spd

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Aug 24, 2011
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So... considering in Falz' proposal reload time is increased (excluding mk which loses all penetration), and the damage is made to be quite unforgiving. We can agree that while maybe it won't result necessarily in the Sharp being a worse trash-killer than Mando, the situation is improved greatly?
Mando would achieve the same results easier, Sharp trash-killing is a task of skill.
Yes?
 

mrsirr

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 12, 2013
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Over here, no not there, here.
You are still looking at only one part of his post and missing the context.
Yeah you got me there, I admit that I tend to skim big ole walls o text. It's just that that one quote was the one where you mentioned the strawman, if you originally meant that it was the whole argument it is , admittedly, abit harder to see what you mean when you dice up your argument like that.
I'd contest that
 

Bathtub Mannequin

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Jul 23, 2013
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Yeah you got me there, I admit that I tend to skim big ole walls o text. It's just that that one quote was the one where you mentioned the strawman, if you originally meant that it was the whole argument it is , admittedly, abit harder to see what you mean when you dice up your argument like that.

I separated his post into multiple quotes because I wanted it to be easier for him to see what each part of my reply was addressing. And regardless, if you, as the third party, decide to join in, then it's up to you to make sure you know what you're analyzing.

Oh absolutely. What I meant was that it seems strawman is the one people are always calling eachother out on, to such a great extent that they start doing it when no strawman is present. On another note, that's basicly what started this whole thing; I hate to see people hate on other people, and the strawman thing sparks something in me.
For the record, that was an honest question, and now it is answered.

Sure. But consider the context of my post (the part you originally addressed): it can be argued as abrasive, but certainly not unfair. I wasn't out to get anyone; I cited the term because I thought it was appropriate. I didn't say something like, for example, "nice strawman you idiot" (note: I'm not saying you said I said this).

I don't really think that's the right term, if I had thin skin then I would have gotten offended and started INSULTING YOU IN ALL CAPS BLARG.

People react idiosyncratically. It's my opinion that given how you replied, you needed thicker skin. It's obviously not something I can state as a fact, which is why the "lol" is there to indicate that I'm not completely serious.

XD what? Dude, you severely overestimate how much the goings on of a forum on the internet mean to me. Do you think I'm fighting for my honor or something? If it really means that much to you-
You're right, I'm sorrry.
There.

Sure, yeah, I don't "care" either, but it was the case that you initially challenged my claim, right? So obviously I'm going to try to disprove you. I was only as condescending as your original post was: "Do you post that link alot because you post it when people don't make a strawman? :/" If you'd like you can look up my post history and see that I try to match my tone to that of whoever I'm speaking to. And for the record: all I said was that I think you're trying to explain your way out of it. I didn't say that you were upset or something, because I don't think you are. In fact, I even said I agree with what you said – when you look at that quote by itself, it's definitely not a strawman.

Now on topic, I'm actually in agreement with. . . um. . . Dick Nation about the handguns. I feel that the handguns should serve as sidearms. I don't know how many people really agree with that, but I don't feel that handguns are really a sharpshooter thing. I would really like it if they were all perk neutral.

Eh, at this point in the game, TWI isn't going to do something drastic like that. It's unfortunate, but currently, sufficient skill allows players of certain classes to not only overlap the roles of other classes, but in a lot of cases, outdo them. The overlap thing will always be there, obviously, but for whatever reason, this is a game where a sharpshooter can function as an effective trash killer and effective scrake killer and effective husk killer and effective fleshpound killer, while, for example, a commando or firebug or demolitions player can only do some of those (or some other things not listed here, but the point is that no class has its own niche that no other class can accomplish).

Like, I watch some of these "combo videos" on YouTube and just wonder what the point is. I mean, yeah, you could use that weird offperk M14 flinch thing to kill scrakes as a medic or whatever, and since the end goal is to have fun, it isn't a problem, but it sort of makes me wonder why class balance is even worth talking about when the sharpshooter can already do everything every other class does and better (sole exceptions: the berserker is a better kiter (but why does that matter when the sharpshooter kills everything anyway), and demolitions is better at killing fleshpounds). Basically, sharpshooter to me is what the berserker is to that wacko, Nutterbutter.
 
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mrsirr

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 12, 2013
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Over here, no not there, here.
Sure, yeah, I don't "care" either, but it was the case that you initially challenged my claim, right? So obviously I'm going to try to disprove you. I was only as condescending as your original post was: "Do you post that link alot because you post it when people don't make a strawman? :/" If you'd like you can look up my post history and see that I try to match my tone to that of whoever I'm speaking to. And for the record: all I said was that I think you're trying to explain your way out of it. I didn't say that you were upset or something, because I don't think you are. In fact, I even said I agree with what you said