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Realism, frustration, and other things ROHOS

=GG= Mr Moe

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Mar 16, 2006
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Just want to say that I have been a fan of TWI since the day ROOST came out. If anyone remembers, it was a very buggy release but there was something about the game and TWI supported the game from the beginning.

I guess I am writing this out of frustration. At its core, Heroes of Stalingrad has the potential to be a great game. I say potential because right now the game is kinda' stuck in some sort of nowhere land.

First off, I understand there are quite alot of people who have a hard time playing the game because of performance issues or other bugs. Many of these people Want to play, but either can't or its so frustrating its not really worth it (not me, my 4 year old cpu actually is fine with this game). Others may have a hard time just finding a game because of browser issues. This I know from personal experience. Having to wait for the game browser to refresh the server list or having to restart the game to get the list to show up has gotten to be annoying to no end. I know for a fact that I would be playing at least a few more hours a week if it weren't for this issue and I suspect there are alot of other players like me as well. I suspect there are alot of people who are not playing the game at all right now who really want to but are waiting for these issues to be fixed and know that TWI will eventually take care of them. Worse though are the loads of players who for one reason or another can't or don't want to wait and have quit all together. This all leads to much lower numbers of players in the games and on servers. I don't care how you spin it or if there are other contributing factors that help lower the numbers, but it amounts to bad word of mouth and less sales which in itself keeps the player numbers low.

The next and biggest issue has to do with the availability of a proper Realism mode and not how it is now; Relaxed Realism with less HUD. This is what really really gets to me and I suspect alot of ROOST Vets and some newcomers who expected more out of the game. TWI stated that they wanted to appeal to a larger group of gamers and I, we get that. A big part of that amounted to making the game more accessable to newcomers with an easier learning curve and not the clunky (yet lovable) type control we all saw in ROOST. We got better animations, weapon handling, movement etc and for the most part I think TWI did a very good job with this, I must give credit where credit is due. However we got all kinds of extras thrown in with this such as the obvious excessive hero weapons, semi-autos and smgs, stats and unlocks. We also got some of the less obvious things that individually would not be so bad (such as lack of proper stamina/weapon sway effects), but just add up with the other features such as Lockdown to become more annoying, rushed faster paced game than it should be.

Alot of these things are fine for your Firefight mode and Relaxed Realism mode. Afterall, weren't these designed to draw in more players from other games who would be interested in trying out Red Orchestra for one reason or another? Yes for those modes, but they do not belong in the Realism Mode! By default most of these extras should be off or limited in Realism mode, which I will say, should be more like a classic ROOST mode. I know now that servers have the options to limit these things to an extent, but in Realism mode they should be already off or limited to begin with!

Now I do believe that TWI will work on the game and try to fix what it can with regards to optimization and bug fixes even if that does take time. They do have a track record that supports that. Maybe we will also get lucky and get DX11 support for better gpu/cpu utilization and maybe non-cpu sound support as well. Hopefully that is more than just wishful thinking.

But Realism mode, please TWI give us a proper Realism mode by default and not just the option to tweak server settings. That whole method to tweak settings in Realism mode to get it to be like a proper Realism mode is just impractical when it should be the other way around to begin with. I also think that the great majority of players who want a proper Realism mode (or classic mode or Ostfront mode whatever you call it) would prefer it that way.

We are your core audience, the ones who supported you thru the years, the ones who helped spread the word about ROHOS, the ones who preordered the game, the ones who would still (mostly) be playing the game despite the release of other AAA titles, the ones who will stick with you despite the game bugs and optimization problems because we know you will fix those to the best of your ability. We are the ones who would be filling the ROHOS servers and attracting new players if only you would just give us a proper and realistic Realism mode and we are Not the .0001% !!!
 
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+1, agree totally, been saying it all along.
even bought a new rig for ro2 and i can tell you this..not playing more than 6 or 7 hours weekly..and twi doesn't seem to care that we complain!

you want to stick with your NEW playerbase? by all means..this christmas i was gonna gift this game to a couple of my friends but...

so long twi, and thanks for all the fish! it's all i'm gonna say before i get rude

edit: your title totally captures what it feels like to play ro:hos .. FRUSTRATION.
 
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Agreed. I'm usually not one to presume malice but the handling of the server side settings regarding ranked/unranked is down right spiteful. If you want to limit unrealistic things such as the mass amount of MKB's your server is forcefully unranked, put into a separate part of the server browser nobody looks at which therefore means nobody will end up playing on that server unless you plan on pugging 64 people, which then means you can't prove that the game would be much better without these sort of things.

If the server settings allowed for a real realism mode while remaining ranked i'm positive these servers would be the most popular because while a good part of the community does not care about stats, a good portion of the public would prefer the stat gain and it's those masses that keep a server full. Instead it feels like these settings are merely a strawman for TWI argument that this will be bad for the game, as if there's any sort of balance in it currently other than everyone having way too many ridiculous weapons on both sides.

I really like RO, I always have since I played the UT04 version all those years ago and while HOS does have the essence of RO it's plagued by many bad decisions that didn't need to be made in the first place. You had the class balance right back in ost front, you had the team balance right back in ost front. Now you've messed it up by adding four new class slots that are armed with either an SMG or a semi-automatic rifle while leaving all the other class numbers exactly intact. Not to mention the fact that Ost front had exagerated weaknesses in weapons in order to strengthen the bolt action. RO2 does not have this so people will always pick a semi-auto over a bolt. And with the amount of them available they can.

Their other balance mess up is the fact they decided that both teams should be even with the exact same strengths and weaknesses. In one of the preview videos the PPSH-41 was apparently overpowered completely outclassing the Mp40. This was 'fixed' by making the gun start off only with a stick mag. I accepted this and felt it was a reasonable conclusion to make, but then they made the Mp40-2 a level 25 unlock just like the drum mag was. Remind me again, what was the point of this other than to even the playing field when one of the more interesting parts of the game was the asymetrical balance? (Soviets had the better SMG, Axis the better MG). This is further ruined by the veteran unlocks. Is the Dp-28 a bit underpowered to your liking? Then spawn with an MG-34, why bother balancing when you can make everything exactly the same!

All these issues are 'fixes' to non-existent problems and I find it bizzare that tripwire even did it in the first place. One of the more annoying things about it all is the fact they claim they had a reason for getting rid of the elite assault class but have yet to state why.

In summary: Let servers restrict weapons while remaining ranked, Fix the class balance by removing 4 assault/elite riflemen from each side as you added 4 more of them with squad leaders, Go back to the asymmetrical balance of Ost front - No MG34 for soviet Mgers no MP40/II for Axis or make it it's own weapon for elite assault only, Readd the elite assault class and reduce assault by a further 1 to make up for it.

You perfected these systems and ideas over two games, why on earth did you change it now when the game could have been a huge success?

EDIT: god I typed a lot of words that'll be ultimately ignored
 
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Now only if these posts would've been made when it had the chance to affect something.

They where, tons and tons of them, probably starting a whole year before the game was released, the community made it crystal clear that we both expected and needed a good realism mode, with historical accuracy, tactical, skill-based and teamplay oriented gameplay.

But as you can plainly see, our input was ignored, or put more accurately, it was not wanted..
 
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Great post Mr Joe

I'd add some statistics to it:

Vote result says by itself
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=71284
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=71434
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=966074
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=71415
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=67980
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=71407

and countless number of posts/threads how to fix RO2
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=962723&postcount=16
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=70232
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=962731&postcount=20
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=922978&postcount=1
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=962762&postcount=27
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=962976&postcount=62
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=954532&postcount=1

Dear TWI, your answer that player can adjust gameplay using server settings is simply wrong. Your customers bought HoS to play Red Orchestra game, not something in between. You put so much afford to add Firefight gamemode for newcomers and casual players (w/o class limitations etc) and here's example how useful it is:

serverlist.jpg


One FF server, with 5 people on it and bots...

Here is what happen when you release "another" FPS game
http://steamgraph.burstpixel.net/index.php?action=graph&appid=q35450q55100q22350q1200&from=0
Playerbase drops down very quick within first few weeks

Here is how playerbase is quite big and growing when you release "unique" indie game
http://steamgraph.burstpixel.net/in...&jstime=1&from=1275343200000&to=1321052400000

With RO2 where neither casual and RO2 fans are happy. What can be done is re-implementation of gametypes:
- normal with Red Orchestra spirit, most of points were introduced in posts and votes above what you need to do
- relaxed, secondary game type with removed class limitations, free aim, commander, etc added (even more) unlocks, medals, ribbons, perks, fantasy weapons, kill streaks, smallers CQF only maps and everything what casual guy would like to have
 
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Now only if these posts would've been made when it had the chance to affect something.

i've been saying exactly this many times over ('no man's land' being my exact words on more than one occasion) - as my greatest fear for RO2 for a very long time.
Short of digging up posts from years back i guess this is at least shown by the fact i didn't buy the game.

However, the idea that anything that any of us say has any bearing whatsoever on what Tripwire do is utter nonsense - it's a total forum myth.
christ i worked that out by the end of '06
 
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Just want to say...
[snip lots of things I agree with]
Agreed.

I was in this for the Realism game mode - the one that I read about, saw demo'd (sort of) and trusted we would be getting when the devs repeatedly assured us that our beta concerns were unwarranted - but what I got was Relaxed (aka. arcade) mode without some HUD bits'n'bobs. I'm not going to repeat what ==GG== Mr Moe has already stated, I don't need to, but suffice to say that my disappointment is all the more frustrating because the core game is there and it feels like a near miss (with a bit less of the 'near').

I also agree that leaving core Realism to individual server settings is a bad move without a solid foundation upon which to base those settings, i.e., an actual Realism game mode out of the box. What we're going to end up with is a mass of mystery servers sat in Unranked that no-one plays. (TWI will then probably take this as vindication that Realism was never really in demand - constructive failure.)

IMO what needs to be done is for TWI to re-do Realism mode incorporating many of the most asked-for elements that have been raised on these boards, repeatedly. (A good place to start would be no perma-stat/weapon/class boosts and locking the mode to level 26 across the board.) Leave arcade^h^h^h^h^h^hRelaxed mode as the game is now. Servers also need to be listed in the same tab, reliant on the icon system that is already in place to identify arcade servers from the servers running the game mode that we thought we were getting in the first place.
 
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... I also agree that leaving core Realism to individual server settings is a bad move without a solid foundation upon which to base those settings, i.e., an actual Realism game mode out of the box. What we're going to end up with is a mass of mystery servers sat in Unranked that no-one plays. (TWI will then probably take this as vindication that Realism was never really in demand - constructive failure.)

That is all most of us want, a good default realism based Realism mode that can be ranked (because we know unranked rarely gets played). There are so many great features built into the game but there is very little that distinguishes the modes from one another. Everyone else that wants can have their Firefight and Relaxed Realism if they want to run around with endless MKbs. Give the game what it deserves and truly make it great!
 
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As a former RO:O player, I agree 100% with OP. RO2 could be something very special if it featured a proper historical realism mode. The lack of this is one of the main reasons I haven't played RO2 more than maybe 20 hours in total. I've never had any performance issues and the only bugs I encountered were in the singleplayer/practice mode (which are included in those 20 hours).

The problem I have with RO2 is the focus on attracting a different kind of player (using unlocks, stats etc) and feeling betrayed by some of the choices made after being promised something else (native voices, rare weapons being rare etc). But this can all be fixed by providing a proper historical realism mode!
 
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