Realism, frustration, and other things ROHOS

[Private Who?]

Ditch RO2.

Make RO2.5, take all the fluff out, Remove SP campaign, FF, upgrades, heroes, bandaging, stats, leveling, zoom, and rare weapons.
Slow down the pace of the game, increase the sway, remove depth of field, re-design maps to play like Ostfront, or better yet, Combined Arms 3.3 and also increase their size.

A well polished lite version of RO2 that plays and feels well. In essence, Ostfront in UE3, with some extra features, and don't focus it on a single battle.

You'd have done quicker and better if you had done this instead.
Also next time, instead of spending whatever crazy amount of money you spent for a named composer, hire more and better programmers and designers.

+1. That's pretty much the game we wanted, and pretty much the game we were selling to our friends and anyone else who'd listen for the past 3 years. What we GOT however...well that's a different and sad story.

Also...GREAT post Moe. Not just good...GREAT.

 

[MtnMan01]

OP +1
You make a lot of good points.
It would be nice to know the basic settings for servers.
Then when I pick a realism server I know the basic settings are locked to make it a realism server. With a couple variables allowed by server admins.(hud,messages etc.) Than vise versa for relaxed realism n so forth.

 

[Sarkis]

1+ op

 

[clippen05]

I agree with all points... hopefully RO2 can be saved

RO1 was a hipster... RO2 went mainstream and look where that got us

 

[clambo]

Remove zoom

Isn't the screen normally set so when you are walking around you are zoomed out - and then you have the "zoom" button to let you aim with real vision?

I thought the normal walk around zoom out default was to give you a wider screen view like real life.

 

[Sensemann]

I am wondering what LemoN and bswearer would post if they were still allowed to...

Thanks to "lonestarranger", I finally managed to get Invasion 44 running smoothly on Arma 2 OA on Steam. From now on, I am working on the editor for the hours that initially were reserved for RO2.

In July, I bought a USD 1400 computer only for RO 2 as it was the most anticipated game in my life. According to steam I have spent around 140 hours in RO 2, from which maybe 20 were enjoyable. This was basically a result of having spent them on a C/D server with mostly RO1 players (no Mkb was a nice side effect).

The gameplay features could eventually be fixed through MAJOR patches/tweaks. However, I am sceptical that those come. But first of all, performance has to be focused on imho. I am having the same system or even better than some players who claim that they are running every map stable and smooth with 50 fps.
Fact for me is: even with the latest drivers, any performance-harming program off, after reinstalling WIN 7 64 bit twice, after tweaking the graphic settings and so on, I am still seeing fps going as low as 18-22 fps on Station, Barracks and Pavlov's. All other maps run at 60 fps but encounter short drops to 20 fps over and over again.

And when I see that the player number has dropped to already under 1000 I am doubting that the improvements from TWI come on time.

This brings me to another issue: Since I am located in China, the 2 servers that generally give me good latency (Chinese server + Japanese server) are mostly empty for 2 weeks already. But I could come over that, as I am used to play with a ping of 300 in RO for the last 2 years.

The only server that I could play on in the last 2 weeks was the 2.FjG server. In the server browser it shows me a ping of 240, I connect and it's a true 320 ms. After 10 minutes into the game, the ping is 400+.

I am sick of this whole trial and error phase that I went through with RO2 because the result was 99% error.

And this comes from a guy whose only FPS in the last 4 years was RO 1.

 

[Fedorov]

Isn't the screen normally set so when you are walking around you are zoomed out - and then you have the "zoom" button to let you aim with real vision?

I thought the normal walk around zoom out default was to give you a wider screen view like real life.

Yes, I know its realistic, I am the first one who defended its realism, but it turned out that it leads to unrealistic behavior, and is bad for gameplay. It also makes the small maps even smaller.

 

[Elysium]

Sounds like a lot of whingers here. Honestly just wait and good things will come. I.e. SDK kit will come out and all you people moaning about this and that can do your own thing.

 

[flavin420]

My big problem is i dont have any RL friends who PC game, and its somewhat hard to find ingame players who really want to team up.

Anyways iso players/clan that utilize teamspeak or something for cooperative gameplay, watch my back and ill watch your, courage in face of the enemy for my brothers.

 

[Leo4444]

I remember post months before release about the communities fears about the mainstream approach but the post were attacked by fanboys and a lot of us just said nothing when the devs reassured us to trust them. I even remember playing the final beta and on a realism server a dev said it was the fist time he played on a realism server, then he said he designed it days before release. I believe it was ramm. I guess the devs thought the normal relaxed realism mode was going to be too fun to pass up, which explains the lack of attention given to the realism mode.

 

[hockeywarrior]

I am wondering what LemoN and bswearer would post if they were still allowed to...

Thanks to "lonestarranger", I finally managed to get Invasion 44 running smoothly on Arma 2 OA on Steam. From now on, I am working on the editor for the hours that initially were reserved for RO2.

In July, I bought a USD 1400 computer only for RO 2 as it was the most anticipated game in my life. According to steam I have spent around 140 hours in RO 2, from which maybe 20 were enjoyable. This was basically a result of having spent them on a C/D server with mostly RO1 players (no Mkb was a nice side effect).

The gameplay features could eventually be fixed through MAJOR patches/tweaks. However, I am sceptical that those come. But first of all, performance has to be focused on imho. I am having the same system or even better than some players who claim that they are running every map stable and smooth with 50 fps.
Fact for me is: even with the latest drivers, any performance-harming program off, after reinstalling WIN 7 64 bit twice, after tweaking the graphic settings and so on, I am still seeing fps going as low as 18-22 fps on Station, Barracks and Pavlov's. All other maps run at 60 fps but encounter short drops to 20 fps over and over again.

And when I see that the player number has dropped to already under 1000 I am doubting that the improvements from TWI come on time.

This brings me to another issue: Since I am located in China, the 2 servers that generally give me good latency (Chinese server + Japanese server) are mostly empty for 2 weeks already. But I could come over that, as I am used to play with a ping of 300 in RO for the last 2 years.

The only server that I could play on in the last 2 weeks was the 2.FjG server. In the server browser it shows me a ping of 240, I connect and it's a true 320 ms. After 10 minutes into the game, the ping is 400+.

I am sick of this whole trial and error phase that I went through with RO2 because the result was 99% error.

And this comes from a guy whose only FPS in the last 4 years was RO 1.

Speaking for both bswearer and Lemon, who I speak with on occasion, they totally agree with what Moe says. We have debated and discussed all of these things to the point of exhaustion. Proper realism, historical accuracy, and a continuation of RO1-style gameplay (with enhancements) are what we all expected out of RO2, but didn't get it sadly. The potential is there, certainly.

As I said in the other thread, I'm pretty much waiting for mods to deliver these needed changes. Otherwise, I can't see the loyal Ro1 crowd (that left RO2) returning unless this happens. We'll see, I guess ... only time will tell.

And,

I remember post months before release about the communities fears about the mainstream approach but the post were attacked by fanboys and a lot of us just said nothing when the devs reassured us to trust them. I even remember playing the final beta and on a realism server a dev said it was the fist time he played on a realism server, then he said he designed it days before release. I believe it was ramm. I guess the devs thought the normal relaxed realism mode was going to be too fun to pass up, which explains the lack of attention given to the realism mode.

Before July, I was one of those fanboys that attacked people who feared of any mainstreaming. July hit, with all the news of the unlocks, and I changed my opinion. I regret beating people down who called it before I could see ... they had their eyes open wider than I did, I guess.

 

[Razvanss]

Ditch RO2.

Make RO2.5, take all the fluff out, Remove SP campaign, FF, upgrades, heroes, bandaging, stats, leveling, zoom, and rare weapons.
Slow down the pace of the game, increase the sway, remove depth of field, re-design maps to play like Ostfront, or better yet, Combined Arms 3.3 and also increase their size.

A well polished lite version of RO2 that plays and feels well. In essence, Ostfront in UE3, with some extra features, and don't focus it on a single battle.

You'd have done quicker and better if you had done this instead.
Also next time, instead of spending whatever crazy amount of money you spent for a named composer, hire more and better programmers and designers.

+1 danke,but this is what i was talking about,for a change like this is going to take more then a month,maibe 3-4 months,and people want a change faster then that,Ram u now our opinions....and i'm not talking about the forum guys,most of my quiter friends from this game are to the same reasons,you must give us an unswer if it's posible to do something or not!!Becouse if not,another ww2 game is under way to be released,and i'm a vet of RO1,but love can be changed!!

 

[Zetsumei]

Isn't the screen normally set so when you are walking around you are zoomed out - and then you have the "zoom" button to let you aim with real vision?

I thought the normal walk around zoom out default was to give you a wider screen view like real life.

There are 2 terms connected to zoom zooming in or zooming out, going from a wider fov to a smaller fov is zooming in going from a smaller fov to a wider fov is zooming out. What is the realistic size in that sense doesn't matter. As going from a size too small to a size of realistic size is still zooming in, it is not un-zooming out or something.

While seeing things at a realistic size is realistic, when you are zoomed in you have a very small peripheral view, which isn't realistic. When you zoom out you have a bigger peripheral view but as the zoom is quite heavy you won't be able to spot enemies at range when un-zoomed. Next to that the zoom transition isn't realistic either.

In the end there are plenty of pros and cons with regards to zooming. But overall in my opinion is the long range gameplay too similar to sniper only maps in other games, and similar to the common thought of ww1 trench fighting. People don't push to attack as much as they should.

 

[Sensemann]

Speaking for both bswearer and Lemon, who I speak with on occasion, they totally agree with what Moe says. We have debated and discussed all of these things to the point of exhaustion. Proper realism, historical accuracy, and a continuation of RO1-style gameplay (with enhancements) are what we all expected out of RO2, but didn't get it sadly. The potential is there, certainly.
.

I am talking with bswearer once in a while. Lemon, I don't know, except from the posts. Tbh, for a long time, I thought that bswearer is a nice guy but too critical. But looking back to his concerns pre-release, I now have to say that he was right with almost everything...

And besides critical, both, Lemon and bswearer, gave valid and well-sorted criticism, ideas and suggestions, many of which I (we?) thought were too extreme but turned out to be just right.

For TWI, I really don't get which horse they were riding when shutting those 2 guys down. As a matter of fact, client's feedback is what's needed by any company. Plus, constructive criticism is leading to advancement and improvement. There is also a much smarter way to deal with flaming customers (if that's what TWI is thinking about Lemon and bswearer) than to simply shutting them down.

 

[CatMangler]

Great read OP and a very engrossing thread.

Yes I feel rather misled about the whole realism aspect sold to me by TW. I also find almost all of the currently released maps rather small and semi & smg run and gun fests (these weapons are, as already stated too numerous).

There

 

[Vyllis]

Honestly just wait and good things will come. I.e. SDK kit will come out and all you people moaning about this and that can do your own thing.

Yes SDK is great.
I didn't buy this game in order to myself make a mod for a minimum acceptable realism. The SDK excuse start to become irritating.

"We are putting casual mechanics in, level up with perks. Yepee !" Oh you still here realism people? Erm, don't worry: SDK.

"You can run & gun, insta-aiming time, it's cool bro !" Ah, you. Don't worry: SDK.

"Lets add a ninja bandage abilities into the game !" Calm down, there is no need to worry realism fanatics: SDK !

"The forum is full of negatives posts, they are moaning everywhere. Damn. Hey you: Go say to them soon they will get the SDK ."

Yes it's exaggerated, but eh. SDK will not change the core game. Except maybe DH. The RO1 mods extended the features and added new contents without the need of drastically change the core gameplay mechanics.

 

[Holy.Death]

In the end there are plenty of pros and cons with regards to zooming. But overall in my opinion is the long range gameplay too similar to sniper only maps in other games, and similar to the common thought of ww1 trench fighting. People don't push to attack as much as they should.

Zooming is fine by me. When you look at distances people are killing each other there is nothing unrealistic. Any kill in range of 300 meters is within effective combat range. Any kill above 300 meters and below 492 meters is also possible to be done in real life. I suspect that some people get too accustomed to ROOst's mechanics and now shooting distances and zoom seems unrealistic for them.

Problem is that maps in game are small and full of obstacles so marksmen, riflemen and MGers have often hard time to find good spots to cover friends from. On the other hand, some maps have not enough cover, some spawns are wide open to shoot at from specific directions. In close range (let's say 150 and below) automatic weapons perform better. Add into that size of servers - the fewer people are in, the more "special classes" they'll be able to have. On 64 servers I often find around 13-14 riflemen because all the other slots are filled. Defenders have hard time to defend when number of people is small, too, and situation improves when there are more people and bigger servers (like mentioned 64), because people can defend in a group and block attackers much better.

Such are my observations.

 

[Zetsumei]

....

There are pros and cons to zooming both in game play perspective and realism sense. Generally I'm not a fan but it does work in enough games. I would personally prefer an implementation similar to ArmA myself though.

 

[[Mad_Murdock]]

Yes SDK is great.
I didn't buy this game in order to myself make a mod for a minimum acceptable realism. The SDK excuse start to become irritating.

…

Yes it's exaggerated, but eh. SDK will not change the core game. Except maybe DH. The RO1 mods extended the features and added new contents without the need of drastically change the core gameplay mechanics.

Im with this, the SDK excuse is not only a cop out but is becoming irritating. The SDK, when we see it, is not going to emerge from the golden mists like the prophets of old and show us the path of righteousness. Besides, and i dont know how many i speak for, but I certainly do not have time to be SDKing anyways. I work as an engineer and go to school for a second degree, i consider myself lucky to have the time and money to play a couple of hours of games on a weekend.

Besides didnt TWI or the Rising Storm guys say that the modders cannot change core game mechanics?

Retrospectively, i wish i had a chance to read some of bswearer and Lemon's old posts. They got canned just as i was getting active on here again after a few years of absence. Seems i missed out on some very interesting conversations. I wonder if theyre still buried somewhere deep in the TWI archives?

 

[monster]

Moe, I see you in the 2FG server. You're recopgnized as one of the guys who is staying faithful.

Your post hit it right on the head. Time to get back to basics, and make the awesome features a product of the gameplay, not vice versa.

I'm firly of the opinion that TWI won't do it. I hope I'm wrong. RO2 will be saved by the community, and most likely the messiah will be a mod that is what should ahve been released.