yes, i too find it very sad that most the game's veteran's decided to add more unnecessary weapons instead of fixing the game's many inert flaws...
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Please improve the map balance for the next release to help player retention
- Thread starter Spetz
- Start date
yes, i too find it very sad that most the game's veteran's decided to add more unnecessary weapons instead of fixing the game's many inert flaws...
I would rather have more content, believe it or not, some people actually like the game and don't see anything truly game breaking.
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none of the bugs are game breaking, but when they are all added up it can lead to very frustrating experience
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Map balance is most definitely the biggest problem with the game as is. I always join the team I perceive as having a harder time on the map, and I've only won 19% of my games.
That's quite bad. Not because I mind losing, but because I hate it when matches turn into slaughters.
I say we need more effective auto-balance and slight map redesigns (start with reinforcement times; that's easiest, right?)
That's quite bad. Not because I mind losing, but because I hate it when matches turn into slaughters.
I say we need more effective auto-balance and slight map redesigns (start with reinforcement times; that's easiest, right?)
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It's predictable that new content won when the vote was taken by veterans of the game. Unfortunately, new content is NOT going to attract and keep new players to the game if they join a server, are forced to attack on a terribly designed map, and get mown down repeatedly. They will not stay around long enough to enjoy the content. When considering the validity of a vote the people who vote must be considered.
Thanks for the agreement.
I don't think playing with reinforcements or tickets is a good way to balance a map. The reason is because it doesn't solve meat grinders. What's going to annoy a new player more is not theoretical win percentage, it's spawning, dying, spawning, dying, repeat, while their whole team also makes no progress and is pinned in spawn. They will get frustrated and quit the game. This is why the maps need adjusted. It's obvious.
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I have no clue why Kobura ever became official, this map was already horrible to begin with, axis pretty much never stand a chance, all the times i played axis, they never managed to capture it. Seems Tripwire has the tendency to make custom maps that are unbalanced official.
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And I have almost never seen the Allies win
Yeah guess it depends on the server. Banzai rush to victory.
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Attackers usually win on kobura because of the various routes to each cap.
The only thing I don't like is the last cap as its impossible to defend,but usually the defenders tickets have run out by then anyway.
As for map balancing their is no way they are going to re-balance the maps now as it would require quite a bit of testing,which is unlikely to happen.
And lets be honest most people don't mind losing, its just that having the first cap on most maps as the hardest to win means the newer players don't ever see the rest before they get bored.
The only thing I don't like is the last cap as its impossible to defend,but usually the defenders tickets have run out by then anyway.
As for map balancing their is no way they are going to re-balance the maps now as it would require quite a bit of testing,which is unlikely to happen.
And lets be honest most people don't mind losing, its just that having the first cap on most maps as the hardest to win means the newer players don't ever see the rest before they get bored.
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I believe I'm in the same camp as Mikeedude here. I too believe rebalancing many of these maps is just too god damn work.
I agree with Mr Hetzer, I'm a veteran of the RO series and TBH despite many shortcomingsin RO2, it does a pretty god damn job and is still very fun...
I too would rather see more content and features in RO2, the efforts gone into balancing maps while important... sure, could instead be put into creating new content. :IS2:
:IS2:I just wrote up a post in the other thread about a suggestion to fix stacked teams and imbalanced maps.
To speak simply, I said that Territory should function how CAMPAIGN MODE worked. Allies & Axis are randomized to be either attacking/defending (NOT INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS, but the FACTION)
For example, Rakowice is a pretty damn German Sided map. Why not have Germans attack it instead? If Germans are stacked anyway why not have them attack a difficult map, or is perhaps the issue that people would rather play the easier side... then that is a completely new discussion.
It's perhaps not a fix you are looking for but perhaps it would allow an easy way to bypass re-balancing many of these maps when instead the man hours could be put into adding new features to grow the game even more.
Just an idea sirelord!
CHeers.
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I'm sure some maps may be tweaked in the future after TWI gets more map feedback with their stats, increase the spawn time here, decrease it there. Little things can be done that are minor work.
But for the most part, I'm with Yarnu and Hetzer. RO2 does a fine job with most everything. Most opinions expressed here on the forum are just that (except mine ), some people think things need to be changed, and others are fine with them.
And I repeat, if you don't like the players, the map rotations, (axis) team stacking, or how certain maps seem one sided on certain servers, pick different servers to play on. I can tell you that you will have a different experience if you play on different (better) servers. If you don't and you keep going back to the same servers, you are a part of the problem!
But for the most part, I'm with Yarnu and Hetzer. RO2 does a fine job with most everything. Most opinions expressed here on the forum are just that (except mine
), some people think things need to be changed, and others are fine with them.And I repeat, if you don't like the players, the map rotations, (axis) team stacking, or how certain maps seem one sided on certain servers, pick different servers to play on. I can tell you that you will have a different experience if you play on different (better) servers. If you don't and you keep going back to the same servers, you are a part of the problem!
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And I have almost never seen the Allies win
I did it once! Beeing Commander of a team which was mostly noobs against a team of complete noobs with no Commander.
Some of the low level Players were so afraid i had to aid them in the capzone
Well we got lockdown on A First round then next round actually killed of there reinforcements. We just let them intentionally get capzones so there round didnt end early and my Boys could Farm a little but experience points.
All the other Times it was a fun battle until defending reinforcements ran out 10 minutes before the end. However this map is so badly executed that almost noone plays it. It will be the New gumrak
Appartment on the other Hand is just crazy. I always try to get my Team winning And i keep getting back to it. I am addiertes to it.Its just challenging and i actually won it once. Unfortunatly most Players wanna defend D rather than C or just ran out of reinforcements. Its the toughest map to win as Defender.
With 64 Players of course. Smaller battles are easy
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I did it once! Beeing Commander of a team which was mostly noobs against a team of complete noobs with no Commander.
Some of the low level Players were so afraid i had to aid them in the capzone
Well we got lockdown on A First round then next round actually killed of there reinforcements. We just let them intentionally get capzones so there round didnt end early and my Boys could Farm a little but experience points.
All the other Times it was a fun battle until defending reinforcements ran out 10 minutes before the end. However this map is so badly executed that almost noone plays it. It will be the New gumrak
I don't know, on the servers I join the players seem to enjoy it whether they are the axis or the allies. Win or lose doesn't matter that much. Of course most of the players I am around couldn't give a sh|t about experience or perks or any of that bs, they are playing to have a good time.
I guess I am saying I'm glad I don't play on most of the servers some of you play on. All I hear is team stack this, map balance that, vets raping noobs, etc etc. Seriously, why do you guys put up with that?
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It wouldn't require much effort to implement my suggestions. Most of them are just capture locking and spawn point moving. That doesn't actually require as much effort as modifying the structures on the maps themselves.
I doubt much testing is required. The current maps don't appear to have been play tested all that much anyway. Observing the state of play on servers is all that is required to find the flaws in the map implementations.
Seriously, can something be done about Rakowice? It's just an Axis spawn kill fest for 40 minutes most of the time. Can there at least be a lockdown at A after 10 minutes to save players' sanity?
To speak simply, I said that Territory should function how CAMPAIGN MODE worked. Allies & Axis are randomized to be either attacking/defending (NOT INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS, but the FACTION)
For example, Rakowice is a pretty damn German Sided map. Why not have Germans attack it instead? If Germans are stacked anyway why not have them attack a difficult map, or is perhaps the issue that people would rather play the easier side... then that is a completely new discussion.
It's perhaps not a fix you are looking for but perhaps it would allow an easy way to bypass re-balancing many of these maps when instead the man hours could be put into adding new features to grow the game even more.
While this is a reasonable idea with some merit, it does not fix the fundamental problem that Rakowice is badly designed. The attacking Axis won't have much fun either. Same goes for the other maps. Fix the issues otherwise its artificial.
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Bridges is to hard to capure D and E . However the defender is in bad positions on the last 3 objectives.
I would add a light tank for the attackers or give them only 2 light tanks.
My experience is that the tanker decides the first 5 objectives. Sometimes good sls crossing the river while staying alive on the other side can compensate for bad tanking but most of the time its 20 min slaughter.
Same for River. The first obj are to hard for the attacker ( maybe don
I would add a light tank for the attackers or give them only 2 light tanks.
My experience is that the tanker decides the first 5 objectives. Sometimes good sls crossing the river while staying alive on the other side can compensate for bad tanking but most of the time its 20 min slaughter.
Same for River. The first obj are to hard for the attacker ( maybe don
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Yes it would. If you've ever been involved with testing, you'd find out that how a map plays is a web of interconnected threads. Change a spawn location or reinforcments and it usually requires changing other things after testing. Mike is right, it's far more work than TWI is likely to invest in.
Secondly, I don't agree that the maps are broken by imbalance. Imbalanced? Sure, to some small degree and tbh, I like them that way, I like difficulty in gaming. I think like minded new players will too and stick around, if those who can't deal with getting their butt kicked while they figure things out and not being able to level up to leet level ASAP leave, I'm not worried about it.
The only times I see teams horribly raped on Kessel, Racko, Bridges, Commisars like your stating is during those situations where one team is horribly outmatched (it's gonna happen) or without a TL (it's gonna happen). For the most part I see those maps go down to the last or close to the last cap. Is the game Axis biased? Yeah, I'll agree it is a bit, but not a deal killer. Whatever. Maybe it's the servers I play on, but most people are there for a fierce battle and don't care once the match is over whether they won or lost, it's all about the experience. I love attacking on Bridges and Racko and have only won them a handful of times in even matches, but I could care less, they often provide great fighting down to the last second. I've heard players talking about a certain close match for a few days after and no one mentions who won, or which side they were on, just that it was so cool to be part of it.
If you're on a server that is badly stacked or one side is hopeless, vote with your feet, find a better one, there's plenty out there.
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Having read people's opinions on map balancing, and with about 700hrs play time (in which I usually pick the struggling team, but have no odd loyalty to either) I will give my 2 cents:
Bridges is NOT heavily unbalanced. But a little tweaking E and D could be useful; for instance as Axis MG I can often mow down freshly spawned Allies behind the bridge (maybe SL spawns?) - this isn't good map design, but overall only slightly flawed.
Red October factory - I have seen people say it is a hard attack... Yeah, for the first cap. But If A is lost, the attackers win at least 3/4 of the time easily. B, C, F and G are all far too easy to attack. Badly flawed.
Commissar's House - Similar to RedOct, this map usually hangs on the first two objectives, A and B, after which it is a fairly easy win. Flawed.
Rakowice This map hangs far too much on capzone B, C is often ignored due to B's importance. Also, yes, sometimes D leaves attackers too well flanked to have any chance, this needs moderate tweaking. Flawed.
(Please let it be known that I enjoy all of these maps very much, but here state only the things that take away from that enjoyment. )
Bridges is NOT heavily unbalanced. But a little tweaking E and D could be useful; for instance as Axis MG I can often mow down freshly spawned Allies behind the bridge (maybe SL spawns?) - this isn't good map design, but overall only slightly flawed.
Red October factory - I have seen people say it is a hard attack... Yeah, for the first cap. But If A is lost, the attackers win at least 3/4 of the time easily. B, C, F and G are all far too easy to attack. Badly flawed.
Commissar's House - Similar to RedOct, this map usually hangs on the first two objectives, A and B, after which it is a fairly easy win. Flawed.
Rakowice This map hangs far too much on capzone B, C is often ignored due to B's importance. Also, yes, sometimes D leaves attackers too well flanked to have any chance, this needs moderate tweaking. Flawed.
(Please let it be known that I enjoy all of these maps very much, but here state only the things that take away from that enjoyment. )
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I barely pub anymore, only do drills with my unit, pubbed today and was shocked how uneven the maps still are and German team is still heavily favorite, out of the 5 rounds i played, we only won on Betio, the rest like mamayev, commissars house, the axis just railed us, i blame the MG42, it's shoots more accurate than a rifle. Something i always loved about RO1 and its mod DH is that the maps were always very balanced so both sides had a good amount of fun. Losing all the time is not fun at all, but i think TW is too busy with KF2. Thats why i never liked KF, the entire team should have concentrated on the game to fix stuff that now after almost 5 years is still not fixed.
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To be brutally honest, it is clear to me that the level of map testing by TWI is just not very high, otherwise there would not be such fundamental flaws in the maps. Flaws can be clearly seen from actually playing maps as both sides on regular servers over many occasions by looking for repeating situations and meatgrinders. The solutions to flaws can be straightforwardly devised and implemented right away without the need for prolonged testing. I believe the immediate implementation of my suggestions would improve the game play for everyone, because like you say later on people like close games and close games are not created by imbalanced maps.
My argument is that even relatively small map imbalances creates team stacking. Think of it like this for example: if you had a choice would you prefer to attack or defend on Commissar's House? Defend of course, because its easier and you will die a lot less. Veterans know this example, and on other maps, which leads to stacking. The new players don't know this and get forced to join the harder side, further exacerbating imbalance. I see this happen very frequently.
Even with a competent commander, a few good SLs and a good tank (where applicable) those maps nearly always result in an Axis win if the Axis team is similarly competent (which it usually is). This is indicative of poor map implementation.
Unfortunately, there are not that many in all geographic areas. Only a handful of servers. If the map imbalance and the Axis stacking is not resolved the game will die very quickly. This is what I'm worried about - and you should be too.
Thank you for your post Sgt.NightFire. I'm glad that other players see it like this which should be obvious to everyone but it is not apparently.
You are a perfect exemplification of the new player's typical experience.
TWI really need to do something about this or players like you (who are new and do pub) will quit the game rapidly.
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