Level Design Please don't mess with contest maps' gameplay!!!

[=GG= Mr Moe]

First of all, I would like to say congratulations and thank you to all the mappers who have entered the recent contest. Thank you to TWI for hosting the contest to encourage new content to be created for the game. It is a win-win for everyone.

(now since I am being discouraged talking about this in another thread...)

The point of this post is to suggest to TWI to leave the gameplay of some of these challenging maps alone. Some objectives are easier, some are harder than others. That is what makes them so special and fun to play. If you alter or suggest to the mappers to alter their gameplay you are taking away that quality and will make the map more "bland" and less fun to play.

Please please please take that into consideration.

I think that optimizing and bug fixing is great, and I hope to see all of the maps entered into the game in some official capacity. An update or a Steam map pack would be wonderful as the mappers deserve to have their creations played by all. But unless there is something really 'game stopping' about the maps, please consider the mapper's original intent and leave the flow of the maps alone.

Comments and criticism welcome of course.

 

[ButchCassidy]

I would be interested in the opinions of both community mappers and the TWI devs on the subject.
Rarely are changes made to maps "just for the sake of it"

 

[Blitzk.-Bob]

Personally I think that the TWI Devs have enough experiences in game design to make good decisions in what they change/want to see changed.
I believe that none of the TWI Devs want to change any gameplay on a map as long as it fits to their game and view of how it should be played.
Some changes might look strange to us however TWI knows why they did them and I believe they know what they do.

The changes that were made on the last contest winner maps were great in my opinion and just improved the overall gameplay of them without changing the spirit of the map itself. (I know that some people see this different and that I'll get quoted together with a nice picture Asshat for having this opinion)

 

[JosephBaier]

"just for the sake of it"

Bridges played out fine There was no reason to make changes..

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

I believe that none of the TWI Devs want to change any gameplay on a map as long as it fits to their game and view of how it should be played.
Some changes might look strange to us however TWI knows why they did them and I believe they know what they do.

And there lies the problem. You are suggesting that TWI are the know-it-alls and we the players and mappers are not, as you state if it fits into their view.

I understand that ultimately TWI probably has the last say on everything because of the contest rules and such. Fine as the mappers must have known in order to submit their creations for judging and possible prizes.

I am also sure that on some points TWI will make some good suggestions. Afterall, they are in the business.

Now (I know I will take some flak for this) you have to listen to yourself. You make it sound as if TWI is high upon some pedestal and they can do no wrong. If you truly believe and agree with everything they do, then great, I am sure there are others who like and enjoy the game based soley upon the decisions TWI have made. I will also be the first to say at the core, ROHOS/RS is a great creation and I thank them for that. That DOES NOT mean that the rest of us who have a different opinion don't understand how a map should play or our views are any less valid because we are not up there on that pedestal.

What I am suggesting is that TWI consider leaving the general feel and gameplay alone so all the maps don't have the 'sameness' feel with each other, just different scenery.

Oh, and please when considering things, do not try and fit maps into that 20-30 minute max time frame that the average lemmings of other games play.

 

[Kowalczyk]

I guess the main problem when a map gets changed is lack of information why.

Bearing in mind that before a map is entered into a competition, it has already been repeatedly tested in a number of different servers, with varying numbers of players and probably hosted under under various gametypes and realism levels.

The thing is, the map is primarily changed according to feedback from all these test runs, but them TWI might come in later and make their own changes, which seem inexplicable to players who think the map is fine as it is.

I dont know how TWI make their decisions to change features of a map, but I would assume they do have their reasons for it (one reason for my view is that it takes time, and I think TWI arent too willing to spend that much more time on RO2 these days). It's just that we dont know what has influenced their decisions.

However, I dont think saying TWI are 'good at game design' explains anything much, because it is the players who play the maps and feedback is based on their experience of the map. I think we can all decide if a cap is too hard, too easy, too far away, too near to enemy spawn, etc. etc. etc. we dont need to work for a game company to do that.

 

[Mikeedude]

Bridges is the only map i noticed any changes and even then they weren't monumental.
Specifics would be more useful then generalizations.

 

[ButchCassidy]

I would have to agree.. Still interested in hearing from community mappers with regards to map changes made to the MCP versions.

We all have an opinion about what makes a good map but TWI have the unenviable task of picking out what's actually is good and what does work for the game overall.
And again those decisions are chewed over by players as to whether they are the right ones.
Seems a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't.. Lol

 

[MeFirst]

To be fair I think user made content should stay user made content. However the maps belong to the mappers and if they feel TWI should change some aspects its their decision.

 

[G_Sajer]

Let's consider a degree of critical thinking and enlightened self-interest.

TWI certainly has the required experience to enhance a map without fracturing it. They've had a decade to refine the skill. The purpose of these maps in the first place is to enhance the desirability of TWI's flagship product in the eyes of the market. I have every confidence that they will focus on that and do a good job. Their livelyhood depends on it.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

I'm fairly certain if and when TWI makes (suggests) changes for a map, they do have a reason. It won't be just for the "helluvit."

Obviously, squashing any bugs, exploits, and things of that nature are important and I don't think anyone would want to see maps released with obvious flaws of that nature.

Let's consider a degree of critical thinking and enlightened self-interest.

TWI certainly has the required experience to enhance a map without fracturing it. They've had a decade to refine the skill. The purpose of these maps in the first place is to enhance the desirability of TWI's flagship product in the eyes of the market. I have every confidence that they will focus on that and do a good job. Their livelyhood depends on it.

There is more than "one generic type of player" that make up TWI's playerbase, and by leaving some of the more challenging maps the way they are it will enhance the variety of what is available.

I mean, if TWI did everything right with ROHOS with all their experience like you seem to suggest (and I repeat again, at the core its a great game), would we have lost so many ROOST vets and new customers who were more concerned with pretty graphics and the fact they couldn't run the game at the max fps expected. I could go on...

YOU sit back a minute, consider and think about their fallibility...

 

[ButchCassidy]

I mean, if TWI did everything right with ROHOS with all their experience like you seem to suggest (and I repeat again, at the core its a great game), would we have lost so many ROOST vets and new customers who were more concerned with pretty graphics and the fact they couldn't run the game at the max fps expected. I could go on...

YOU sit back a minute, consider and think about their fallibility...

I think many players were destined to leave as TWI had no intention of making RO1 with better graphics.
And they have stated as much.
RO2 was always going to be different to RO1 and in some pretty fundamental ways.
So some of the old RO community were always going to struggle with those changes and some would just take them in their stride.

If you are going to talk about TWI's fallibility then you have to have something to compare it too and logically you can only compare TWI to other similar makers of FPS games in the gaming industry.
And if you make those comparisons and take into account how small TWI are then TWI are pretty good overall when compared to likes of EA and Activision and even compared to companies like Steam and Bohemia they stack up well in the release and support categories.

They have at least released an SDK for their flagship game (unlike the "big two") and held various competitions to encourage a modding and mapping community and they put together a community team to produce Rising Storm who have gone onto form their own gaming company.. yes there are still things that need to be included and yes it may have been a slow process at times but at least they are still supporting the game over 2 years later.

They may not be perfect but they are a hell of a lot better than some so called triple "A" game makers such as EA and Activsion.
As we have all seen recently, the size of a company does not ensure a well released or well supported product.

So fallibility is not solely owned by TWI, in fact it is a reality of the entire gaming industry and endemic of almost all games produced these days.
I have yet to buy a game in the last 5 years that did not require a patch at some stage for something that the developer either forgot to add or wanted to add or needed to add.

RO2 may not be a perfect game nor the game some hoped for but the support TWI are still giving it, some 2 years after release is pretty amazing.
I wish I could say the same for many of the other games I own

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

To be fair, TWI does a lot of things right, better than many companies.

But that does not make them infallible. When you see posts that suggest because they are TWI, they will get it right, you really have to wonder what they are drinking

And I stand by what I say about the ROHOS release and ROOST vets leaving. I would put good money on it if at release, the game was more like Classic mode or had Classic mode side-by-side with Realism mode. And by the way, Classic mode is a very decent tribute to ROOST, it was just too late for most players who bought, supported, talked up good things about TWI before ROHOS came out.

 

[doomis]

I think I must agree with mr Moe here, his opinion might have sounded (but was not) a bit offensive at first but to be honest noone discredited TWI here for their amazing job, especially the effort they put into RS after the worse than expected reception of ROHOS (I remember player numbers as low as ~2009 RO1/DH at some points).

The problem I had with the official release of Bridges was that it gave a more streamlined feel to the map. Sure, noone wants to be stuck attacking the first 4 objectives for 30 or more mins, but it is these hardships in the initial stages of long maps that make the finale all the more interesting. If a team is not good enough to capture the first objectives, then the rest of the round will probably suck anyway, no need to artificially help it. Will this make 4 out of 5 rounds on those maps boring? Definitely! But this one round where the attackers finally get organised and push on to the final objectives with tickets low and only a few mins left will more than make up for the frustration of the previous ones. Of course, this delivers a more inconsistent experience to the players and not all of us care for big combined-arms maps that will take an hour to finish. This is what I feel TWI tried to correct by introducing a few alterations to the custom maps before making them official. Making them more similar to the rest of the maps' feel, where most of the rounds will deliver a "middle" experience with a bit of both frustration and satisfaction depending on who is the winner, while avoiding having maps where one team might get completely shut down (even if the next round might be beyond awesome with a bit of player-induced team balance).

 

[Gabbakeisen]

+1 TWI Made some Custom Maps worse... Bridges I'm looking at you :IS2:

 

[Sensemann]

Personally I think that the TWI Devs have enough experiences in game design to make good decisions in what they change/want to see changed.
I believe that none of the TWI Devs want to change any gameplay on a map as long as it fits to their game and view of how it should be played.
Some changes might look strange to us however TWI knows why they did them and I believe they know what they do.

Well, hold on. It's called "Community mapping contest". Mappers from the community shall create maps that the community wants to play. In the process of map development, mappers upload many new versions of their maps that get tested for bugs and gameplay. After a long process of mapping-testing-updating-testing again etc. the mapper creates his final product and submits it to the contest.

And then, TWI judges the maps and tells the mappers to change stuff so that the maps fit their game and view. Hm, sounds odd to me and many others, of course not to those that see everything through pink glasses and that nod their heads to anything TWI says.

What is it that TWI thinks THEIR VIEW is right, eventhough the community created sth different?

Then again, who is the community to judge what is right and what is wrong with this game? TWI got it all figured what's best for the game. Player numbers prove that.

PS: There are some mappers that I'd like to hear from. For example: Danh, Six_Ten, Le0, 11_Harley_11. Oh damn, they left the game series and don't map anymore, despite 2 of those mappers having produced contest winning maps (Winterwald and Bridges of Druzhina). And afaik, Drecks is also leaving. Well-played.

 

[Fishsticks]

Well, hold on. It's called "Community mapping contest". Mappers from the community shall create maps that the community wants to play. In the process of map development, mappers upload many new versions of their maps that get tested for bugs and gameplay. After a long process of mapping-testing-updating-testing again etc. the mapper creates his final product and submits it to the contest.

And then, TWI judges the maps and tells the mappers to change stuff so that the maps fit their game and view. Hm, sounds odd to me and many others, of course not to those that see everything through pink glasses and that nod their heads to anything TWI says.

What is it that TWI thinks THEIR VIEW is right, eventhough the community created sth different?

Then again, who is the community to judge what is right and what is wrong with this game? TWI got it all figured what's best for the game. Player numbers prove that.

PS: There are some mappers that I'd like to hear from. For example: Danh, Six_Ten, Le0, 11_Harley_11. Oh damn, they left the game series and don't map anymore, despite 2 of those mappers having produced contest winning maps (Winterwald and Bridges of Druzhina). And afaik, Drecks is also leaving. Well-played.

I wanted to chime in but I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head with that post alone.

 

[[40-1]MORD]

They did mess already

Update to PhosphatePlant-B7

changes after first TWI Feedback


- i added a hole in the wall of Obj ,,G,, towards Obj ,,E,,
- if one of the two last capzone captured it will be locked

Let me add that mapper also had to add a ladder in this objective to make it even more easy for Allies.
I played latest version yesterday and got shocked what had been done with my favourite objective - cap zone G - the Axis stronhold. It`s an "weakhold" now. Americans just flood it from 4 directions without problems.
How many times did they test it on full server - few times maybe or less?
How many times we played this map on our RS server seeing victories of both sides? I love this map so I used to push it in prime time at least 2 times per evening. So lets say 100, easy.
But Im just a player so what do I know.

 

[Kowalczyk]

but im just a player so what do i know.

+1

 

[gyps]

I cant fault any of the above statements


Don't get me wrong TWI do get many things right - but they do love to tinker for the sake of tinkering least that's how it looks - bridges and winter are the proof of that.


Maybe we're wrong and they are right - but I cant help thinking if that's the case why do we loose players so quick they seem to get bored very quick