Panzer IV H and STUG G variants.

[Heinz]

Seeing as German tanks rarely get attacked by Panzerfausts .

in real life, yes. in RO, are you nuts?!!? what game have you been playing?????

 

[kabex]

I already made a very good thread about this(PzIV H):
http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9523&highlight=stug

It's all explained there.

 

[kabex]

Bump(just because).

 

[Santini]

Well, I rember reading somewhere that the Pz IV H's got mistaken for Tigers all the time... so people think of them as crap tanks, but with 80mm of armor, and the L/48 gun, they were on par or just a little substandard with the 85's

 

[Santini]

The skirts are way more for anti AT rifle, allthough they showed some effects against HEAT munitions

They'd also help against the T-60

 

[EvilAmericanMan]

in real life, yes. in RO, are you nuts?!!? what game have you been playing?????

lol I thought about that, and realized I hadn't been Panzer'd lately as a German. Luck I guess or lots of people don't know you can pick up Panzerfausts as a Russian.

 

[GuidoTorpedo]

Besides stolen fausts, do the Soviets in RO currently use any HEAT ammunition?

 

[Harry S. Truman]

The skirts are way more for anti AT rifle, allthough they showed some effects against HEAT munitions

They'd also help against the T-60

http://www.geocities.com/augusta/8172/panzerfaust1.htm

There is some controversy over whether the skirts were developed as spaced armor, or whether they were added to improve overall armor rating against the russian AT rifles encountered in the east (the 14.5mm PTRD and PTRS). It seems that although they were probably initially developed to aid defeat kinetic energy penetrators by increasing overall armor thickness, the potential of these spaced armor plates against hollow charge ammunitions was realized quickly and the concept of skirts was retained primarily for this side effect (as evidenced by the -albeit rather rare- use of mesh wire skirts, and application of skirts on armor surfaces that were practically immune from AT rifle fire, such as Panther side armor)

Prime example. Why put wire mesh on the sides of tanks? It will not help against AT rifles. Also, why put shurtzen on a Panther? It was immune to the AT rifle from all aspects. It turns out to be VERY effective against HEAT rounds.

 

[Recce]

Firstly, in defence of the PzIV F/2, it seems basically the same as the PzIV G, and I doubt, from a game view point, they would be any different. So that increases the production run from 175 to 1862, and covers a 2 year period before the PzIV H started production in April 1943. So that is a fair number to cover the early war period.

While the early StuG III F were armed with the the 75mm L/43, late model F's (the F/8) were armed with the 75mm L/48. Of the F variant, about half were the F/8. We can forget about the StuG III E, as very much infantry support, with a 75mm L/24. So the StuG F was in production for 9 months, and half of those produced had the long barreled gun. Add in the production of StuG III G (which also had the 75mm L/48) you get 360 short barreled guns to 8000 long barrelled guns.

So, I'd like to see the StuG III get the 75mm L/48, even if we didn't get the MG, 'pig's head' mantlet and skirts that came with the G variant.

And as the late model PzIV also used the 75mm L/48, once it's been modeled for the StuG, it's ready for the PzIV.

 

[Santini]

Dude, the G has + 30mm of armor, and some had the L/48, and some had skirts

 

[Santini]

The mesh is the perfect size to catch the ATR rounds, and cause it to tumble

IF it was meant for heat, it woulda gone on the fronts, too

 

[[CoFR]BooBoo]

Schurzen would be a great idea, but I wonder if it's even possible to code spaced armor in the 2.5 engine. It would make for some insane ballistic calculations, same as discussed in the thread about penetration. If you can't code for spaced armor it would have to be treated as extra thickness for the normal armor, defeating the purpose of the spacing.

 

[EvilAmericanMan]

The mesh is the perfect size to catch the ATR rounds, and cause it to tumble

IF it was meant for heat, it woulda gone on the fronts, too

Not really, and they were for HEAT rounds. You try actually getting it on the front of the tank and have fun trying to drive the tank!

 

[Santini]

Dude, have you seen the new styrker vehicals? They do it just fine

 

[Nebfer]

Not really, and they were for HEAT rounds. You try actually getting it on the front of the tank and have fun trying to drive the tank!

No all sorces i've seen point to the ATR as the main reson.. (after all the germans had hardly encounterd the US forces at the time of its develipment)

Thy where first used in febuary 1943 on the eastern front. (by june 1943 thy where standerd issue.)

and the soviets did not have much in the way of a wepon other than AT Granades and the ATR. and the PTRD was more than capable of dealing with the Panzer III and IV side armor


the anti-Heat reeson is Allied after war speculation

 

[Harry S. Truman]

Probably the same reason they pasted zimmerit on thier tanks even though they were the only country to use a magnetic AT mine.

As Germany had developed megnetic mines, which could be easily attached to armour plates by infantry, they were concerned that their enemies might employ magnetic mines themselves. To counter this, the company Zimmer AG came up with a mix of non-magnetic materials

Either way, they developed a HEAT round in '41 and had to know the allied weapons, like the PIAT used a shaped warhead.

 

[Santini]

Aye, but the fact that schuzen stopped HEAT was just an added benifit

 

[Recce]

Dude, the G has + 30mm of armor, and some had the L/48, and some had skirts

As I said in my post

While the early StuG III F were armed with the the 75mm L/43, late model F's (the F/8) were armed with the 75mm L/48. Of the F variant, about half were the F/8. Add in the production of StuG III G (which also had the 75mm L/48) you get 360 short barreled guns to 8000 long barrelled guns.

Couple of points regarding the front armour. First, the StuG III G was originally produced with 50mm front armour. In May 1943, the extra 30mm of armour started to be issued and bolted onto both the F & G already in the field. It wasn't until October 1943 that StuGs were produced with a "solid" 80mm front hull, rather than the bolt on.
Second, the in-game StuG IS modelled as having 50mm + 30mm for the front armour.

It was also common field practice to increase the drivers protection by adding concrete to the tank.

 

[kabex]

Recce, did you even read the parent post of this topic? I explained everything.

It was also common field practice to increase the drivers protection by adding concrete to the tank

I believe the Finns did that to their StuGs.

 

[akd]

Firstly, in defence of the PzIV F/2, it seems basically the same as the PzIV G, and I doubt, from a game view point, they would be any different. So that increases the production run from 175 to 1862, and covers a 2 year period before the PzIV H started production in April 1943. So that is a fair number to cover the early war period.

While the early StuG III F were armed with the the 75mm L/43, late model F's (the F/8) were armed with the 75mm L/48. Of the F variant, about half were the F/8. We can forget about the StuG III E, as very much infantry support, with a 75mm L/24. So the StuG F was in production for 9 months, and half of those produced had the long barreled gun. Add in the production of StuG III G (which also had the 75mm L/48) you get 360 short barreled guns to 8000 long barrelled guns.

So, I'd like to see the StuG III get the 75mm L/48, even if we didn't get the MG, 'pig's head' mantlet and skirts that came with the G variant.

And as the late model PzIV also used the 75mm L/48, once it's been modeled for the StuG, it's ready for the PzIV.

The StuG in-game is an F/8 and has the longer 75mm gun.