Paid Weapon DLC?

[Blockbot]

In reply to the original post...

1. We always said we wouldn't charge for our own weapons. We're not. We're using this as a way to reward community members for work done.

I think it's completly fine you wanting to support modders. and I do indeed support modders, I gladly donate money. but "p2w" is not ok in any sort in any game. couldn't you support them diffrently like community contests, that would be great for marketing and giving away prices will always attract new players and modders. just like “$1,000,000 Make Something Unreal” in a smaller scale.

I think its good what ur trying to do but ur doing it with the wrong content.


3. The weapons don't change gameplay - they are "side-grades". They all have stats similar to existing (FREE) weapons.

if the new weapons don't bring anything new to the table. why didn't you just make a weapon skin DLC instead? that would atleast not piss of 1/5th of the comunity

4. There have been a couple of comments about "pay to win". Um - this is a CO-OP game, not competitive. You're not playing AGAINST someone who can get a drop on you because they've spent money. No-one can "beat" you at all - with or without any extra weapons. The weapons aren't any "better" than FREE weapons anyway. That is just knee-jerk reaction.

lol are you telling me I'm a jerk for wanting fair gameplay? lol I don't care if you call it CO-OP. the game have something called solo Kiting aswell. remove that and we're talking coop. even if the game is ment as coop still doesn't mean its played like one.

So - the weapons are effectively cosmetic anyway. If we've missed anything and one of them is OP, we'll reel it back in - just as we would with FREE weapons. Have done, in fact. We're doing it as an experiment, related to the Steam workshop experiment, seeing if we can give people decent ways to reward community members who do a boat-load of work - that meets the quality bar as well. We picked this one as the experiment as it is reasonably simple to handle. And Paypal buttons on random websites are largely useless.

We have looked at other ways of doing it and will continue to do so. Ultimately, we want the players to be able to choose what is worth it to you - and what it is worth. And then we will always have to inspect for quality and sanity. But that is still a little way off.

So this is an experiment: some weapons that do NOT make anyone "over-powered", but are a fun alternative to the (50+) (FREE) stock weapons. No-one NEEDS to buy them. No-one will get any more "powerful" with them. The IJC guys will get some reward for the time they've put in and we will learn things from the experiment, adjust plans and move on. What direction that takes depends in part on this experiment, on part what we can afford to do, in part on what the player community is interested in.

But there is a limit to the amount of free content we can generate (we already do 3 events a year, new maps, weapons for free, some DLC characters to help pay for it) - so we really do want to encourage the broader community to make more content that fits, that is of high enough quality and is attractive to the players. If we can find ways for people to earn a bit of cash off providing that content, then the player base will wind up with even more content to play with. That is one theory, anyway

 

[Phada]

"Community DLC" no need to extrapolate, something sounds really wrong here.
I'll pass.

 

[Tabrias]

If the new weapons stats aren't identical to other weapons, then they're not cosmetic, plain and simple.

saying that they're sidegrades and therefore ok is bull****. Every weapon in the game is a sidegrade.

 

[nejcooo]

if there will be more i hope it wont be more then 3 weapon dlcs per year! i hope soon there wont be more dlc weapons than stock you ahve to know that some people wont buy them and want to enjoy kf to max

 

[FDRs Legs]

Thank you for another lovingly crafted event TWI, however I am disappointed with the course you took with this Weapon DLC. Placing stat based weapons behind a pay wall limits the variety of gameplay available (KF to me is all about creating builds with the widest variety of weapons) while those with the DLC now have to feed their team weapons with no assurance that a troll won't scoop their loadout while they are helping out team mates (also having to outfit your team each game will get old fast).

1. We always said we wouldn't charge for our own weapons. We're not. We're using this as a way to reward community members for work done.

Don't you negate this argument in point 2 by saying that you have taken the mods in as part of your own game? I admire that you are sharing the profits with the mod community, but claiming that you haven't affected gameplay with DLC because the content is not technically yours is a stretch. As you state in point 2, it is your DLC.

3. The weapons don't change gameplay - they are "side-grades". They all have stats similar to existing (FREE) weapons.

I would be giddy as a school girl to have a regular crossbow that I see, and have my team watch, fire whirling saw blades. The grim reaper with an axe or a giant sword is hardly the same mental image as him running around with a scythe. What I'm getting at is that these DLC Weapons would still hold their allure as simply weapon skins. From what I have experienced these items do not hold muster as simply side-grades, sorry.

4. There have been a couple of comments about "pay to win". Um - this is a CO-OP game, not competitive. You're not playing AGAINST someone who can get a drop on you because they've spent money. No-one can "beat" you at all - with or without any extra weapons. The weapons aren't any "better" than FREE weapons anyway. That is just knee-jerk reaction.

I don't think it is knee jerk, a number of videos have displayed this. What is the free equivalent to the 2 block fire revolver? Where do I look for a light-weight, long range weapon to 2 shot scrakes(or body-shot stun as a bezerker)? Balancing is by no means easy, I admire TWI for the work they have put in to keep things on an even keel(I thought the Xmas weapon pack was an amazing display of this knack for balance), even if we are experiencing some serious power creep lately with the sharp (last patch), and zerker and firebug (although I do feel he needed some tlc) this patch.

So - the weapons are effectively cosmetic anyway.

Don't you think purely cosmetic would be almost as effective (sales wise) without risking getting everyone's knickers in a twist?

And Paypal buttons on random websites are largely useless.

I agree, a full belly usually makes it hard to reach for the wallet. Customers are exponentially more likely to pay if they feel their money is necessary in order to acquire goods. Charity gets brushed away with the excuse that someone with greater financial means will donate for them. Although I still have reservations about having to spend money on gameplay altering DLC, how about a pay what you want model?

We have looked at other ways of doing it and will continue to do so. Ultimately, we want the players to be able to choose what is worth it to you - and what it is worth. And then we will always have to inspect for quality and sanity. But that is still a little way off.

I gifted a copy of this weapon DLC and was in turn gifted a copy in order to ease my conscience on the matter (yes I recognize the logical schism). In the end I caved due to my love for what I view as one of the few oldschool fps games with a DLC system I used to admire (hence not even considering Quake Live). Although I circuitously supported your experiment, I hope this is the last we will see of stat based weapons behind a paywall. I do not intend to let myself cave to this model again. I sincerely hope TWI can find a DLC scheme that does not come to affect gameplay.

So this is an experiment: some weapons that do NOT make anyone "over-powered", but are a fun alternative to the (50+) (FREE) stock weapons.

A weapon skinning system satisfies these requirements nicely.

No-one NEEDS to buy them.

Except if someone wants to be able to understand the weapon mechanics to be able to better play along with the team. I already irritated some friends who had been pestered to play with the new toys all day.

No-one will get any more "powerful" with them.

Providing a melee centric class with the means to handle an enemy from range when he could not do so before does just this.

The IJC guys will get some reward for the time they've put in and we will learn things from the experiment, adjust plans and move on. What direction that takes depends in part on this experiment, on part what we can afford to do, in part on what the player community is interested in.

I sure hope this precise scheme is a one off and you will try something that does not directly impact gameplay.

But there is a limit to the amount of free content we can generate (we already do 3 events a year, new maps, weapons for free, some DLC characters to help pay for it) - so we really do want to encourage the broader community to make more content that fits, that is of high enough quality and is attractive to the players. If we can find ways for people to earn a bit of cash off providing that content, then the player base will wind up with even more content to play with. That is one theory, anyway

I greatly appreciate the continued support being provided to this marvelous game. I also recognize that this support has the benefit of attracting new customers, and loyalty from the existing player base. At some point however this gaming as a service model comes to a head with what the older customer believes they had paid for. I know I signed up for a fantastic FPS that tried to straddle the need for income via DLC with the integrity to provide a wholesome experience for the entire player base. I hope TWI can find a model that continues this goal otherwise I will be forced to consider my service period complete and move on.

 

[Teraku]

Pay-to-win. Simple as that.

 

[FDRs Legs]

Even if the weapons were severely underpowered, preventing players from having full access to the game's changed experience is a contradiction in TWI's initial goals with DLC.

Having limited access to weapons means that your team will not necessarily have the chance to be prepared to know what the team mate with the weapons behind the paywall is capable of handling. Paid weapon DLC undermines teamplay regardless of how weak or powerful they might be.

 

[SMIFF]

Even if the weapons were severely underpowered, preventing players from having full access to the game's changed experience is a contradiction in TWI's initial goals with DLC.

This

 

[Klownstein]

How about some "Mac Support DLC". I'd pay 5 dollars for that. Right now I have to enter a script into Terminal in order to get my perks to work. When I can properly enter a server to play the game then you can have my $$$

 

[Amber Glass]

FDR summed it up quite eloquently

 

[Gabbakeisen]

Sorry Wilson but point 3 is either a straight out lie or you have been seriously misinformed. If it was true then nobody would have a legitmate complaint about the DLC weapon pack.

 

[Skell [KUN]]

In reply to the original post...
-Lalalalala, beautiful reason, lalalalala-
That is one theory, anyway

****ing beautiful. This makes my point of view do a 180. This is amazing, and I support this 100%! It's good to see you're working with the IJC folks and are willing to help other devs. to make this game more fun.

 

[Black_Knight]

I've bought all the DLC costumes even if I don't use any of them as a way to support TWI and because they were cosmetic that have no impact on gameplay. However, from this point onwards, unless a change in policy occurs, I won't be buying anything else from TWI. Best way to get a company's attention is to vote with your wallet.

1. We always said we wouldn't charge for our own weapons. We're not. We're using this as a way to reward community members for work done.

Granted, you gave yourselves a loophole, to jump out of, but I'll get into why this whole notion just opens a can of worms at the end.

2. It is no longer a "mod". It is DLC taken in as part of the game itself. That is one of the many little headaches we've got to work on to find ways to make this all work sweetly. Random individuals trying to charge for odd bits of code/art are still in breech of the EULA.

If it's modded to walk like duck, quacks like a duck, and act like duck, it's still a mod. It's considered DLC only because it's officially part of the game as an add-on.

3. The weapons don't change gameplay - they are "side-grades". They all have stats similar to existing (FREE) weapons.

Please drop this charade, there's already video evidence showing how the new weapons outclass at least one of their counterparts. Although if you look at their base stats, they might be okay. But if you take into account class bonuses, they become the best in the game. Ala the Scythe.

4. There have been a couple of comments about "pay to win". Um - this is a CO-OP game, not competitive. You're not playing AGAINST someone who can get a drop on you because they've spent money. No-one can "beat" you at all - with or without any extra weapons. The weapons aren't any "better" than FREE weapons anyway. That is just knee-jerk reaction.

Pay to win refers to any time you're playing a game where if you pay money to receive benefits or equipment that gives you an edge over other players in PvE or PvP. The issue here is while you aren't fighting against one another, there is a certain sense of competition to get the most kills and/or money. Due to the nature of these new weapons, those who buy the DLC set will have an advantage over those who don't to more quickly dispatch Zeds, and thus earn money which is zero sum in Killing Floor. Now an altruistic player will spread the wealth, but you can't always rely on charity.

So - the weapons are effectively cosmetic anyway.

If they were just reskins of existing weapons, we could have avoided this headache all together, but they aren't. Hopefully the lesson learned is that future weapon DLC, if there is any are reskins and not upgrades of existing weaponry. Especially since balance has been thrown to the wayside after the last 2 weapon updates.

We're doing it as an experiment, related to the Steam workshop experiment, seeing if we can give people decent ways to reward community members who do a boat-load of work - that meets the quality bar as well. We picked this one as the experiment as it is reasonably simple to handle.

What direction that takes depends in part on this experiment, on part what we can afford to do, in part on what the player community is interested in.

I do hope the data from the experiment is satisfactory and you make the appropriate changes. After the Ash Harding debacle, a middle of the road solution was made. Perhaps, I hope the same thing will happen again.

we really do want to encourage the broader community to make more content that fits, that is of high enough quality and is attractive to the players.

The problem is this is having the exact opposite effect and is fracturing the fanbase. A 5 star berserker not using the Scythe in a HoE server? You just got kicked. If more 'community packs' get released, expect this to rift to only widen. Considering a lot of the HoE community has left in disgust after the previous weapon update (Thanks M99) TPI needs to do anything possible to keep the community together and having paid content that effects gameplay is not the solution.

Now you can reward community members who give the game support in the ways of community created content, however you have to do it the right way since I'm sure this started out with good intentions, all that's been done was paving the road to hell. Due to the reasons ascribed above. Obviously giving them money is the desired end, but is it better to have them just be reskins, or entirely new weapons?

Also, I know you aren't as cynical or exploitative of your fanbase like Valve is (There's no other explanation for selling a virtual $100 wedding ring in a cash shop) But where would this end if more DLC weapons are produced? DLC zeds? DLC maps? You have to pay to get a pass to play events? Pandora's box has been opened, and we can't be sure where this will lead.



tl;dr solution. Make Community made weapons just reskins of existing weapons rather than unique ones, those who want to supporter the modders and TWI as a whole will still buy them just like they've been buying the character skins.

 

[Vlad Tepes.pt]

Weapons DLC

Weapons DLC

By the way, love the free update and love the paid DLC. Been having a blast with stuff. Thanks!

The pay weapons DLC is excelent and they are fun.

2.99 euros is not expensive for 4 new weapons.

 

[jalex3]

and it's still 2.99 too expensive.

without the discount this "DLC" is half the cost of the game. WITH the discount, it's a dollar under the cost of the game.

this weapon pack should not be 8 bucks, or even 4 bucks, 99 cents would have been a reasonable price, and even then, it could have been a "hey guys, Tripwire here, we like these weapons and are going to add them to killing floor, if you enjoy them consider making a donation to the mod developers here <link>"

You must never of seen how much other games just for weapons, skins and hats. This price is not bad. If you feel it is then down buy it. Its not like not having it destroys the game. The game is dirt cheap has frequent sales and events.

 

[defektive]

Pay-to-win. Simple as that.

No, 'Pay-to-be-better'.

 

[Gregs2k2]

The lack of community spirit and meanfisted whining is unbearable. In future, I hope TW charge full price for all their seasonal specials. That will give you all something to whine about. Some people just don't know when they're onto a good thing.

Content like this costs time and money. The fact you've been receiving tons of this stuff for over 3 years, totally free of charge and the recent outcry and damn right trolling over a the new, optional paid for DLC just shows you people appreciate nothing.

 

[defektive]

Please drop this charade, there's already video evidence showing how the new weapons outclass at least one of their counterparts. Although if you look at their base stats, they might be okay. But if you take into account class bonuses, they become the best in the game. Ala the Scythe.

Without exception, this is the part of the debacle that boils my goat the most: the apparent assessment of these new weapons being conducted only by comparing the base weapon stats against their counterpart with no apparent attention given to which perk will be using them.

I don’t understand how something as fundamental as this can slip under a developer’s radar. (Given the agonisingly uncomfortable pickle that surrounded RO2 where similar bizarre errors in judgement conspired to result in perhaps one of the rockiest game releases of recent times, you’d think that TWI would now be super-fastidious about such things.) Surely someone at TWI must have experience of how dominant the Zerker was prior to this patch and alarm bells should have been sounded when the idea of giving the Zerker (a supposedly melee specialist perk, remember) a Sharpshooter quality ranged weapon, and the best melee weapon the game as yet seen (as if the Zerker was crying out for another melee upgrade), was first mooted. Someone was sleeping on the job with this decision and making it pay-for -- an entirely separate and insidious can of worms -- only compounds the issue.

 

[infntnub]

Pay-to-win. Simple as that.

No, 'Pay-to-be-better'.

You guys and this "pay-to-win" response to the latest DLC seriously need to give it a rest lol...

That statement implies you need this DLC to beat the game. Simply put, you don't. It's not even a situation of "pay-to-be-better" either. It's a "pay to have more toys to amuse yourself with" situation. You'd think TW set off an atomic bomb on the Steam when they released this option to purchase a few additional weapons. The dramatic nature of some people is downright shameful, and for those who seriously are leaving the game over this - farewell.

I agree with Greg2k2; I hope TW charges out the a$$ for EVERYTHING going forward, holiday events included. Maybe that'll make you realize just how minor of a thing this really is/was.

 

[defektive]

It's not even a situation of "pay-to-be-better" either.

The first round of patching after this update will, I expect, prove you wrong "lol..."