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North Korea and United States War?

Gamburd

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 14, 2007
415
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Detroit, MI
Do you think there will be war between North Korea and the United States and South Korea?


On the one hand, I thought if North Korea was going to invade South Korea, it would just do it and not tip everyone off about its plans.


On the other hand, I think the United States wants to take out some of North Korea's nuclear weapons manufacturing infrastructure and would like to do so before North Korea is capable of developing long range nukes that can strike the Continental U.S.A.


So, I think a war will happen but it will be a limited war (i.e., border incursions and bombing; China will stay out of it because of its strong economic ties to the U.S. and the West as long as the U.S. doesn't try to invade North Korea.
 
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JosephBaier

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 3, 2013
1,535
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There will be no war, atleast not this year (and If it happens it'll be over within a week). NK pulls this "hurr durr we will 0wn if you don't spend moneZ 4 our poor peeps, so we haz moar money 4 military, YOLO" **** every year. The young dude overdid it a bit but I think he just wants to show the world (and his generals..) how much of a bad-*** he is so they don't think it might be nicer without him.
 
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I. Kant

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 9, 2007
1,516
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What about other possibilities?

Kim J Un, the hero of democracy, pushing for a war he hopes to lose, so he can topple the regime the generals would otherwise not allow him to topple?

Or:

A man comes into my house and spits into my soup. He does that several times, in fact. I beg your pardon, but no matter how the f polite and well-mannered I am, I'm going to lose temper eventually and lash out at him, even if I'm a skinny intellectual and he's a mountain of muscle. (Did I mention that that mountain of muscle is the only source of information about me to the outside world, because my neighbours won't listen to a silly skinny pete?)

Discuss.
 

Floyd

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 19, 2006
4,313
725
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Waterproof
www.ro50pc.net
Its a trap! :eek:

But more to the point. Even khadafi wasn't foolish enough to (attempt to) back up his rhetoric against anyone outside of his borders.
 
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Shadrach

Grizzled Veteran
May 2, 2006
2,690
400
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Elitist Prick Ski Lodge
stian.freeshell.org
What about other possibilities?

Kim J Un, the hero of democracy, pushing for a war he hopes to lose, so he can topple the regime the generals would otherwise not allow him to topple?
I've been thinking along the same lines actually, though I think if the generals are the ones actually in control (which I think), they also would not allow such a war to happen. They know they will be crushed by the combined forces of the South, the US and the UN.

In any case if such a war happens it will cause horrible loss of lives, the arsenal of both sides, just non-nuclear, is so immense you will have thousands of civilian dead in a few hours.
 

JosephBaier

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 3, 2013
1,535
1
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I've been thinking along the same lines actually, though I think if the generals are the ones actually in control (which I think), they also would not allow such a war to happen. They know they will be crushed by the combined forces of the South, the US and the UN.

In any case if such a war happens it will cause horrible loss of lives, the arsenal of both sides, just non-nuclear, is so immense you will have thousands of civilian dead in a few hours.
Hitler thought he could handle all major countries with italy and japan..
loss of reality is a big problem for demagogues these days :rolleyes:
 

bifutake

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 15, 2012
127
0
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bifutake.wordpress.com
A man comes into my house and spits into my soup. He does that several times, in fact. I beg your pardon, but no matter how the f polite and well-mannered I am, I'm going to lose temper eventually and lash out at him, even if I'm a skinny intellectual and he's a mountain of muscle. (Did I mention that that mountain of muscle is the only source of information about me to the outside world, because my neighbours won't listen to a silly skinny pete?)

Discuss.
nice metaphor. for those who have a hard time deciphering its meaning (we should never underestimate the power of mainstream brainwashing mechanisms), here's an excellent summarized approach regarding this issue:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/04/10/north-koreas-justifiable-anger/
 

BlackLabel

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 9, 2007
3,139
1,063
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Churmany
In any case if such a war happens it will cause horrible loss of lives, the arsenal of both sides, just non-nuclear, is so immense you will have thousands of civilian dead in a few hours.
Remind me again why the wording "collateral damage" was established...
 

bifutake

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 15, 2012
127
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bifutake.wordpress.com
Remind me again why the wording "collateral damage" was established...
to alleviate guilt from someone whose actions might be considered criminal? to justify what is essentially unjustifiable (aggression, double-standards, unilateralist disregard for international law, enormous loss of civilian lives and their livelihoods as a direct consequence of the aforementioned elements)?
 
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Floyd

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 19, 2006
4,313
725
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Waterproof
www.ro50pc.net
Its a shame that history is lost upon today's youth. But then, I guess that has been the case since the dawn of man.

Its also a shame that wisdom is wasted upon the aged. Wouldn't it be nice if we all asked Granddad his views before contemplating our next move?

Its also a shame that articles are written as fact when (clearly) assumption and innuendo are at the basis. "Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see." (Courtesy of Ben Franklin)

Its also a shame when one's own personal agenda(s) blind one's perspective to reality. But then, everyone has their own pair of rose colored glasses through which their paradigm of life is reflected.

If I really cared to inform misguided good intentions, I'd ask a friend to upload and post a recent segment of a "news" event broadcast to the citizens of N. Korea he surreptitiously brought back with him. But alas it would fall upon deaf ears and I'd just as soon bang my head against a brick wall.....
 

bifutake

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 15, 2012
127
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bifutake.wordpress.com
i wonder what the news segments on american networks would look like if the u.s. lost 1/3 of its citizens in a war against a foreign invader that divided the country and which still lurks around the corner, holding joint military maneuvers close to the dmz involving, among others, b2's and b52's. which are capable of carrying nuclear armament. you see, these month-long maneuvers (they call 'em "games") are what fueled these (recent) tensions in the first place. but they tend to pass relatively unnoticed by our media in order to build a story of their liking.


http://youtu.be/njz_uc61KVE?t=5m1s

(...) what happens in the western media is that the first half of the sentence is dropped.
 
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JosephBaier

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 3, 2013
1,535
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ofc media is posting what we like to hear (atleast most of us). I'm sure its the same in NK.
And living conditions in NK are terrible, guess who pumps ~48% of the income on the military instead of spending it on food to feed his volk.
20% killed? A quote from a random guy? Heck I would say NK is not real if someone pays me too, or whatever his reasons were..
can anyone provide a proper source for that "mass-murdering"/*insert something you like to hear more* 1/4 of the population?
 
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bifutake

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 15, 2012
127
0
0
bifutake.wordpress.com
ofc media is posting what we like to hear (atleast most of us). I'm sure its the same in NK.
And living conditions in NK are terrible, guess who pumps ~48% of the income on the military instead of spending it on food to feed his volk.
20% killed? A quote from a random guy? Heck I would say NK is not real if someone pays me too, or whatever his reasons were..
can anyone provide a proper source for that "mass-murdering"/*insert something you like to hear more* 1/4 of the population?
living conditions in north korea are determined by the economic sanctions imposed on that country and the constant military threat by the u.s. surrounding its territorial waters with established bases south of the dmz.

considering the past history between these two parties, it would be surprising to see north koreans NOT concentrate their resources on defense. nuclear armament is their main deterrent and it would be insane to give it up. the only way north korea could redirect these resources into the neglected civilian sectors would be if the u.s. finally stopped threatening them with war. which they've been doing for the last half a century.

and if you think curtis lemay was just a random guy, then i really am speechless.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/know-the-facts-north-korea-lost-close-to-30-of-its-population-as-a-result-of-us-bombings-in-the-1950s/22131

http://necrometrics.com/20c1m.htm

sources are cited in the links above.
 

bifutake

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 15, 2012
127
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bifutake.wordpress.com
Alleged atrocities by USA/ROK:

The sources...

Some guy on Internet


Some other guy on Internet

WTF??? :rolleyes:
i never said it was a scientific article. but the sources are there, if you choose to look the right way:

List of Recurring Sources:

AWM: Australian War Memorial Fact Sheet [http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/war_casualties.asp]

“B&J”: Jacob Bercovitch and Richard Jackson, International Conflict : A Chronological Encyclopedia of Conflicts and Their Management 1945-1995 (1997)

Blair, Clay, The Forgotten War (1987)

Britannica, 15th edition, 1992 printing

The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Africa (1981)

The Cambridge History of Africa (1986), ed. J. D. Fage and R. Oliver

CDI: The Center for Defense Information, The Defense Monitor, "The World At War: January 1, 1998".

Chirot, Daniel: Modern Tyrants : the power and prevalence of evil in our age (1994)

Chomsky, Noam, The Chomsky Reader (1987); Deterring Democracy (1991)

Clodfelter, Michael, Warfare and Armed Conflict: A Statistical Reference to Casualty and Other Figures, 1618-1991; also Vietnam in Military Statistics

Compton's Encyclopedia Online v.2.0 (1997)

Courtois, Stephane, The Black Book of Communism, 1997

COWP: Correlates of War Project at the University of Michigan [http://www.correlatesofwar.org/]

Dictionary of Twentieth Century World History, by Jan Palmowski (Oxford, 1997)

Dictionary of Wars, by George Childs Kohn (Facts on File, 1999)

DIOR: US Dept. of Defense, Directorate for Information Operations and Reports

DoD: United States Department of Defense [http://web1.whs.osd.mil/mmid/m01/SMS223R.HTM]

Dunnigan, A Quick and Dirty Guide to War (1991)

Eckhardt, William, in World Military and Social Expenditures 1987-88 (12th ed., 1987) by Ruth Leger Sivard.

Edgerton, Robert B, Africa's armies: from honor to infamy: a history from 1791 to the present (2002)

Encarta, Microsoft Encarta '95.

Encyclopedia Americana (1995)

FAS 2000: Federation of American Scientists, The World at War (2000)

Gilbert, Martin, A History of the Twentieth Century (1997)

Global Security: The World At War [http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/index.html]

Grenville, J. A. S., A History of the World in the Twentieth Century (1994)

Hammond Atlas of the 20th Century (1996)

Hanson, Carnage and culture (2001)

Harff, Barbara & Gurr, Ted Robert: "Toward an Empirical Theory of Genocides and Politicides", 32 International Studies Quarterly 359 (1988).

Hartman, T., A World Atlas of Military History 1945-1984 (1984)

Hastings, Max, The Korean War (1987)

Johnson, Paul, Modern Times (1983)

Kuper, Leo, Genocide: its political uses in the Twentieth Century (1981)

Kutler, Stanley: Encyclopedia of the Vietnam War (1996)

Leckie, Robert, Conflict: the history of the Korean War, 1950-53 (1962)

Levy, Jack, War in the Modern Great Power System (1983)

Lewy, Guenter, America in Vietnam (1978)

Marley, David, Wars of the Americas (1998)

Nahm, Andrew, Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Korea (1993): "Nahm93"

Nahm, Andrew, Korea: tradition and transformation (1988): "Nahm88"

"Official VN": Hanoi's official tally of losses for 21 years of war: 1954-75 announced 3 April 1995

Obermeyer, Ziad. "Fifty Years of Violent War Deaths from Vietnam to Bosnia." British Medical Journal (2008)

Olson, James: Dictionary of the Vietnam War (1988)

Our Times: The Illustrated History of the 20th Century (Turner Publishing 1995)

“Pentagon”: Blair, Leckie and the Encyclopedia Americana cite Pentagon estimates for the total killed, wounded and missing in the Korean War

Ploughshares": Project Ploughshares, Armed Conflicts Report 2000

Porter, Jack Nusan, Genocide and Human Rights (1982)

Rosenbaum, Alan S., Is the Holocaust Unique? Perspectives on comparative genocide (1996)

Rummel, Rudolph J.: China's Bloody Century : Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1900 (1991); Lethal Politics : Soviet Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1917 (1990); Democide : Nazi Genocide and Mass Murder (1992); Death By Government (1994), http://www2.hawaii.edu/~rummel/welcome.html.

“S&S”": Small, Melvin & Joel David Singer, Resort to Arms : International and Civil Wars 1816-1980 (1982)

Singer, Joel David, The Wages of War. 1816-1965 (1972)

SIPRI Yearbook: Stockholm International Peace Research Institute

Smith, Dan: The State of War and Peace Atlas (1997); The New State of War and Peace (1991); The War Atlas (1983) with Michael Kidron

Summers, Harry, Korean War Almanac (1990); Vietnam War Almanac (1985)
Totten, Samuel, ed., Century of Genocide: Eyewitness Accounts and Critical Views (1997)
Tucker, Spencer, Encyclopedia of the Vietnam War (1998)

Wallechinsky: David Wallechinsky's Twentieth Century : History With the Boring Parts Left Out (1995).

War Annual: The World in Conflict [year] War Annual [number].

"WHPSI”: The World Handbook of Political and Social Indicators by Charles Lewis Taylor

“WPA3”: World Political Almanac, 3rd Ed. (Facts on File: 1995) by Chris Cook.

Young, Marilyn, The Vietnam Wars: 1945-1990 (1991)
are you really trying to say that the death-toll resulting from the korean war wasn't immense and practically one-sided? here's another anticommunist which admits that it was:

War, of course, always exacts a heavy toll on civilians. But the impact of the Korean War on the civilian population was especially dramatic. Korean civilian casualties -- dead, wounded and missing -- totaled between three and four million during the three years of war (1950-1953).
http://www.calvin.edu/news/2001-02/korea.htm

i have to react to something real quick:

The soldiers, AP said, were unprepared for war, "teenagers who viewed unarmed farmers as enemies, led by officers who had never commanded men in battle. And the Koreans were peasant families trapped in their ancestral valley between the North Korean invaders and the American intervention force."
invaders, eh? imagine texas being overrun by mexico. would you call the u.s. forces trying to retake it invaders or liberators? double-standards much? in fact, imagine texas being overrun by someone living half-way across the globe. say, korea. wtf are they doing there in the first place? this would be the equivalent of american involvement in asia. or the middle-east. or even south/central america (monroe doctrine).

here's another one:

The Korean War finally ended in July 1953. Left in its wake were four million military and civilian casualties, including 33,600 American, 16,000 UN allied, 415,000 South Korean, and 520,000 North Korean dead. There were also an estimated 900,000 Chinese casualties. Half of Korea's industry was destroyed and a third of all homes. The disruption of civilian life was almost complete.
http://ete.cet.edu/modules/korea/kwar.html

these numbers, of course, differ depending on the source they're using. but the main point is clear: korea (north and south) was practically purged of its citizens during this war.
 
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=GG= Mr Moe

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 16, 2006
9,798
890
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53
Newton, NJ
invaders, eh? imagine texas being overrun by mexico. would you call the u.s. forces trying to retake it invaders or liberators? double-standards much? in fact, imagine texas being overrun by someone living half-way across the globe. say, korea. wtf are they doing there in the first place? this would be the equivalent of american involvement in asia. or the middle-east. or even south/central america (monroe doctrine).
Ok, going with that, just remind me so I have this clear.

Who invaded who starting the Korean War?

You know what, never mind. You just don't get it :rolleyes: