Important: Way too accurate aim for every soldier!

[<*>Nora The Martyr]

Oh look, it's this thread again.

Bunch of RO1 fanboys *****ing and moaning about RO2. RO1 weapon sway was far too excessive. RO2 is much closer to reality.

Try holding a WWII rifle at a target @ 100m IRL and you notice the "sway" doesn't cover big area like in RO1. Set your sight at a target 100m away in RO2 and don't touch the mouse. You'll notice that the sight drifts around 1m*1m area, very similar to real life. I just tested this with my M39 Mosin Nagant (Finnish rifle) and I can easily hold the sights at similar or smaller area than RO2 soldier when standing unsupported. Personally I think that biggest shortcoming in games when it comes to modeling weapon handling is the lack of trigger pull. As long as our mouse buttons have nearly zero resistance and the press is absolutely instant it can't be modelled.

sure sure sure, but how long does it take to aim and make that shot?

From hip to ironsite- An RO2 solider could make it in 2-3 seconds.

At that range in reality, your looking at around 4-6 seconds.

FYI...sway in RO1 increased the longer you had ironsites up, If you constantly clicked in and out of ironsites you had virtually no sway.

 

[BrenLMG]

Agree

Agree

Something needs to be done with the shooting mechanics. Really they just need to feel more like RO 1, or darkest hour... Iv been playing RO for 2 years non stop and RO2 can hardly hold my attention, kills just don't feel as rewarding as they used to be, in RO1 I really felt like I was holding a weapon that I had to learn to control very well in order to use. Every thing about RO2 right now is great, and I know It can be a great second game to the Red Orchestra series, but the shooting difficulty needs to go up.

I don't think we should get our hopes up even though this game really needs this tweak. I wonder what tripwire thinks of all of this..

 

[palco]

accuracy seems fine. 6-10 inch groups at 100m while standing unsupported are pretty standard for rifles, more than enough to guarantee hits on a human size target. Increasing the sway to increase the target acquisition time would be alright though. There's definitely not a problem with weapon accuracy but target acquisition might be too fast. Increased sway would change that but prone and braced sway are fine. Really its just standing/crouching unsupported while low on stamina/supressed that should be changed.

+one

 

[Inuki]

This will address both the realistic aspect of the game and will also fix the game's firefights which right now do not exist.

I don't know if anyone's been to the army here, but even with a modern M4 and a good scope it's very difficult to nail your target perfectly (I'm not talking about Spec Ops, yes?), especially when you're in the middle of a firefight, stuff blowing around you and your friends are dying... It's outrageous that a WW2 simple soldier with a rifle nails me straight through the head when I'm in cover from a kilometer away, when all he did was spot me thanks to the razor sharp graphics today's resolution and graphics offer, and just aiming at me. Nothing else, wind, the skill of the shooter, shaky hands, nothing matters, I'm dead.

Please don't forget that in WW2 soldiers weren't as well trained as they are today, rifles weren't half as accurate as they are today, and weapon jams and different failures were a common sight on the battlefield.

I think that drastically reducing the accuracy of normal soldiers, and only making them really accurate when they press aim + shift (and even then, reduce the accuracy) will improve the game and fix the current inability to enjoy a long lasting realistic fire fight because right now the moment you spot an enemy means whether he's dead, or you are.

If accuracy will be reduced, you'll both dive into covers and shoot at each other, doing your best combined with your skill in the game to kill your opponent, which also opens a whole new door to flanking and givesa new meaning and importance to reinforcements. Obviously officers should have much better aim and accuracy than the other soldiers, and a marksman shouldn't lose accuracy.

I can see in my mind how this game could be awesome, two sides firing at each other, some flanking, others push with suppressing fire trying to win the fire fight, instead of just always camping and picking off your opponents one by one without any feeling of an actual battlefield, just luck, the hope you won't be spotted and a good camping spot. Please listen to my idea, I honestly believe it can change the game and push it into a much better direction!

First of all

1) Do NOT increase recoil. Recoil is not the answer to accuracy. It plays a small part of it but there is a fine line between the players ability to aim the gun and actual limitations of hardware (Using a mouse and keyboard to control the weapons instant response to firing a virtual gun on screen) =/

2) There are some other factors to take into account. One which ArmA 2 does fairly well. Scopes and ironsights work differently and for different people. That is, some people prefer one sight to another and get accustomed to it. Unfortunately, thanks to the removing your eye and glueing it 1cm away from the ironsight, most of the ironsights in this game feel very much the same.

3) Do not touch bullet spread. This just ends up being a roll of the dice. All guns should be 100% accurate. Where you aim is where the bullet will go. Otherwise the player is not in control and it is not skill based

4) The correct answer and easiest way to implement a decrease in accuracy for this game (Unless you rework the entire ironsight system too) is to increase weapon sway. That is your weapons random movement when you hold it meaning you have to constantly re-adjust your aim working against the motion of your movement. This would more of a difference over long distances but for the most part completely unaffected short range combat.

But yeah...right now. Combat is too short and this game doesn't have any sort of firefights where one group of guys is trying to kill the other group of guys for say...lets say...more than 5 seconds...and in a glorious tracer back and forth awesome special effects. Right now the game is hide and seek. Peekaboo. I see you. Your dead. If your not out of sight your gone.

 

[realninja]

Something needs to be done with the shooting mechanics. Really they just need to feel more like RO 1, or darkest hour... Iv been playing RO for 2 years non stop and RO2 can hardly hold my attention, kills just don't feel as rewarding as they used to be, in RO1 I really felt like I was holding a weapon that I had to learn to control very well in order to use. Every thing about RO2 right now is great, and I know It can be a great second game to the Red Orchestra series, but the shooting difficulty needs to go up.

I don't think we should get our hopes up even though this game really needs this tweak. I wonder what tripwire thinks of all of this..

if the shooting mechanics is like Ro 1 i'd never give up until getting a #

 

[ptx]

First of all

1) Do NOT increase recoil. Recoil is not the answer to accuracy. It plays a small part of it but there is a fine line between the players ability to aim the gun and actual limitations of hardware (Using a mouse and keyboard to control the weapons instant response to firing a virtual gun on screen) =/

2) There are some other factors to take into account. One which ArmA 2 does fairly well. Scopes and ironsights work differently and for different people. That is, some people prefer one sight to another and get accustomed to it. Unfortunately, thanks to the removing your eye and glueing it 1cm away from the ironsight, most of the ironsights in this game feel very much the same.

3) Do not touch bullet spread. This just ends up being a roll of the dice. All guns should be 100% accurate. Where you aim is where the bullet will go. Otherwise the player is not in control and it is not skill based

4) The correct answer and easiest way to implement a decrease in accuracy for this game (Unless you rework the entire ironsight system too) is to increase weapon sway. That is your weapons random movement when you hold it meaning you have to constantly re-adjust your aim working against the motion of your movement. This would more of a difference over long distances but for the most part completely unaffected short range combat.

But yeah...right now. Combat is too short and this game doesn't have any sort of firefights where one group of guys is trying to kill the other group of guys for say...lets say...more than 5 seconds...and in a glorious tracer back and forth awesome special effects. Right now the game is hide and seek. Peekaboo. I see you. Your dead. If your not out of sight your gone.

To be honest after a few pages of this thread I changed my perspective a little and I agree with you completely. Weapons shouldn't be a 100% accurate, but around 95% is very good, But weapon sway has to increase, and I don't think there's gonna be any change with the iron sight system, although I agree on this as well, different scopes for different types of players, but it's much to implement and it's too big for a change using patches after the game's already out and people are getting used to it's mechanics...

Oh look, it's this thread again.

Bunch of RO1 fanboys *****ing and moaning about RO2. RO1 weapon sway was far too excessive. RO2 is much closer to reality.

BLAH BLAH BLAH...

Funny that you say that, considering that I opened this thread and I was never a RO1 player.
I look at this game from a realistic-gamer point of view, and it has nothing to do with RO1, so you can relax and cool off with comments like this.

 

[2Lt.Horvath [6th AB]]

sure sure sure, but how long does it take to aim and make that shot?

From hip to ironsite- An RO2 solider could make it in 2-3 seconds.

At that range in reality, your looking at around 4-6 seconds.

FYI...sway in RO1 increased the longer you had ironsites up, If you constantly clicked in and out of ironsites you had virtually no sway.

That may be so in a stationary position in a nice calm area, but if you've been running quite a while, perhaps hours on and off maybe even days. It's cold, you're filthy, you're mates just been shot in the head and you have an MG34 spraying rounds at you. Will you be able to aim like you're in the shooting range then?

 

[aop]

To be honest after a few pages of this thread I changed my perspective a little and I agree with you completely. Weapons shouldn't be a 100% accurate, but around 95% is very good, But weapon sway has to increase, and I don't think there's gonna be any change with the iron sight system, although I agree on this as well, different scopes for different types of players, but it's much to implement and it's too big for a change using patches after the game's already out and people are getting used to it's mechanics...

Funny that you say that, considering that I opened this thread and I was never a RO1 player.
I look at this game from a realistic-gamer point of view, and it has nothing to do with RO1, so you can relax and cool off with comments like this.

How funny, since when I shoot my IRL Mosin Nagant there isn't much of that sway you are demanding for this game.

RO2 already has some sway, just use the iron sights, pick a target, place the sights over the target and don't touch your mouse. You'll notice that the sights start drifting around. I'd say that the things you are complaining about (accuracy mainly) are caused by the lack of actual trigger pull (which can't be modelled in games), not lack of sway.

 

[Sardukar]

How funny, since when I shoot my IRL Mosin Nagant there isn't much of that sway you are demanding for this game.

Do you do a series of sprints for 20mins before firing your gun in real life? are you being shot at? do you carry your gun around all day long? your not firing your gun in combat conditions.

 

[aop]

That may be so in a stationary position in a nice calm area, but if you've been running quite a while, perhaps hours on and off maybe even days. It's cold, you're filthy, you're mates just been shot in the head and you have an MG34 spraying rounds at you. Will you be able to aim like you're in the shooting range then?

Do you think that adding random variables and enforcing certain playstyle on players would make this game any more realistic? While we are at it why not make it so that every second player character is a coward and can't move an inch if being shot at and every 1/4 player character has diarrhea and needs to stop to relieve theirselves every 2 minutes or **** themselves and have enemy soldiers comment about the smell if they are nearby. Gives "stinky Ivan" a whole new meaning, doesn't it?

 

[ptx]

How funny, since when I shoot my IRL Mosin Nagant there isn't much of that sway you are demanding for this game.

RO2 already has some sway, just use the iron sights, pick a target, place the sights over the target and don't touch your mouse. You'll notice that the sights start drifting around. I'd say that the things you are complaining about (accuracy mainly) are caused by the lack of actual trigger pull (which can't be modelled in games), not lack of sway.

Seriously dude, have you ever shot a gun? Especially when tired, or after running, not even talking about running around in a battlefield up stairs and crouching and falling and standing up and more and more? WTF are you talking about? the lack of an actual trigger is nothing, when you get used to squeezing the trigger it becomes natural almost like pressing the mouse button.

 

[Josef Nader]

Guys, it's been said before and I'll say it again.

There -is- weapon sway. Plenty to throw off shots that would be suitably difficult in real life (> 100m). However, within 100m, even the most starving, frozen, sickly soldier should be able to hit with more than reasonable accuracy. These are -rifles- we're talking about here. 100m is a very short distance compared to what they're capable of. It's just that there aren't that many distances greater than 100m present in the game, so it feels like a snipe fest.

Go to one end (longways) of the Fallen Fighter's plaza and try to shoot targets at the other end. It's not easy. If they're moving, it's almost impossible if you aren't prone or braced. People complain about it being a snipefest, but everyone squats in the buildings with their rifle braced against a window to make those 150m shots, so you don't see the sway. It's there. Next time you're in game, join an empty server and bring your ironsights up while standing. You'll see them begin to move quite a lot. More than enough to screw up a shot that's outside of 100m.

RO1 skewed your perception of distance. 100m used to be a challenging shot, when in reality it's a fairly trivial one. Once the engine is streamlined and the modders get their mitts on the SDK, I get the feeling we'll start seeing some much bigger maps that will demonstrate the difficulty of hitting targets at much more realistic distances.

Seriously dude, have you ever shot a gun? Especially when tired, or after running, not even talking about running around in a battlefield up stairs and crouching and falling and standing up and more and more? WTF are you talking about? the lack of an actual trigger is nothing, when you get used to squeezing the trigger it becomes natural almost like pressing the mouse button.

Actually, he's right. The trigger pull is the part most likely to throw off your shot, especially if you jerk it. You need to be intimately familiar with your weapon and know -exactly- when it's going to discharge to get the best accuracy. Why do you think hair triggers are so important to proper marksmanship? It's not just a matter of pulling it back, as that requires putting tension (however small) in your arm, and it will alter your aim more than enough to screw up your shot.

 

[aop]

Seriously dude, have you ever shot a gun? Especially when tired, or after running, not even talking about running around in a battlefield up stairs and crouching and falling and standing up and more and more? WTF are you talking about? the lack of an actual trigger is nothing, when you get used to squeezing the trigger it becomes natural almost like pressing the mouse button.

You might have noticed the pic of one of my Mosins on the last page.

My point was that ingame we have insta-trigger. Try to jerk the trigger IRL and it'll likely throw off your shot. Especially with military weapons which have rather high trigger pull, my both Mosins have 2kg+ and I have shot Mosin with around 4kg trigger pull. Jerk that and you'll miss the shot.

 

[DiedTrying]

First of all



3) Do not touch bullet spread. This just ends up being a roll of the dice. All guns should be 100% accurate. Where you aim is where the bullet will go. Otherwise the player is not in control and it is not skill based

I do not understand where some of you people get this idea. Firearms are not star wars laser blasters. Counting out wind and gravitational pull, you've got a few other factors that will effect the accuracy of a firearm. There won't be a large difference (95%) in accuracy, but it is a fundamental truth.

 

[ptx]

I do not understand where some of you people get this idea. Firearms are not star wars laser blasters. Counting out wind and gravitational pull, you've got a few other factors that will effect the accuracy of a firearm. There won't be a large difference (95%) in accuracy, but it is a fundamental truth.

+1. I also still can't understand how people expect WW2 rifles to be 100% accurate, and ignore the human factor, it's just absurd... (I'm not saying sway the weapon all over the screen, but a little regard for human behavior and body limitations please!

 

[DiedTrying]

Guys, it's been said before and I'll say it again.

There -is- weapon sway. Plenty to throw off shots that would be suitably difficult in real life (> 100m). However, within 100m, even the most starving, frozen, sickly soldier should be able to hit with more than reasonable accuracy. These are -rifles- we're talking about here. 100m is a very short distance compared to what they're capable of. It's just that there aren't that many distances greater than 100m present in the game, so it feels like a snipe fest.

Go to one end (longways) of the Fallen Fighter's plaza and try to shoot targets at the other end. It's not easy. If they're moving, it's almost impossible if you aren't prone or braced. People complain about it being a snipefest, but everyone squats in the buildings with their rifle braced against a window to make those 150m shots, so you don't see the sway. It's there. Next time you're in game, join an empty server and bring your ironsights up while standing. You'll see them begin to move quite a lot. More than enough to screw up a shot that's outside of 100m.

I think the problem with weapon sway is that you can easily counter it with mouse movements and "leveling". There is no way in real life without a gun vice to counter sway like you can in game. I took notice of this yesterday. I let my ironsights float around without mouse control and did realize it was alright. I put my hand on mouse and I guess from my gaming experience, I was able to reduce sway by at least 75% if not more, while unsupported.

As for trigger pull, I don't think it's that big of a factor. It used to be when I was a kid and I flinched a little when shooting. I dont flinch anymore and I am comfortable with the trigger pull on all my rifles.

 

[aop]

I think the problem with weapon sway is that you can easily counter it with mouse movements and "leveling". There is no way in real life without a gun vice to counter sway like you can in game. I took notice of this yesterday. I let my ironsights float around without mouse control and did realize it was alright. I put my hand on mouse and I guess from my gaming experience, I was able to reduce sway by at least 75% if not more, while unsupported.

As for trigger pull, I don't think it's that big of a factor. It used to be when I was a kid and I flinched a little when shooting. I dont flinch anymore and I am comfortable with the trigger pull on all my rifles.

You have to keep the sights over the target during the trigger pull IRL but because the game doesn't have a trigger pull you can let the round fly the same millisecond the front sight post touches the target.

If you try to fix that by adding more sway (RO1 style) it'll just ruin the gunplay and make short range shooting a chore.

 

[DiedTrying]

Well people are not going to like delayed triggers either

 

[aop]

Well people are not going to like delayed triggers either

This is why I don't want to add it in the game and say that we live with it instead of adding gamey stuff to make up for it.

 

[Catpuke]

+1. I also still can't understand how people expect WW2 rifles to be 100% accurate, and ignore the human factor, it's just absurd... (I'm not saying sway the weapon all over the screen, but a little regard for human behavior and body limitations please!

I was conscripted into a cavalry parade unit. We trained on both the FN FNC (AK5) and a 6.5x55 chambered mauser carbine (a bit shy of a meter long) from 1896 with most rifles having been manufactured in the 20's through 40's. I and most of my platoon shot better from 100 meters with the old mauser did than we did with the modern AK5. It might've been the sights and it might have been the lighter trigger pull but still, accuracy was better with the older weapons. Accuracy in this case means tighter groupings.

I'd expect WW-II rifles to be much much more accurate than anything in a modern arsenal apart from MG's and sniper rifles.