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Idea for "ZOOM" How to makes the Veterans happy

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_Dariuszek_

_Dariuszek_

Grizzled Veteran
Jan 10, 2011
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#1
So I bought RO1 just to see the difference between RO1 and RO2.
And I can not agree with the Veterans, zoom is a great feature!
Aim for the pixel is simply not cool but...

But "ZOOM" in its present form is bad, because is so easy to run & stop and kill enemy from 200 metters in a heartbeat.

Aim from close is also poor because of "ZOOM" FOV changes the target is too close.
This is why so many of you reported that you could not kill enemy from close.


THE IDEA

When you will use iron sight "ZOOM" will not be activated which will be like in RO1.
When you use mouse wheel you will activate "zoom"
When you stop using iron sigh mouse wheel will returns to its previous settings for example, you can change weapons.
Zoom will increase few seconds, such a solution is for simulate long range targeting.
More you are tired aim time is longer.

Such a solution should slow down the game, and make game more realistic.
I hope I wrote it clearly enough!

Please discuss!
 
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#2
So if I got you right. You want to remove auto zooming in, and replace it with scrolling zoom with the mouse? While starting with no zoom.

That would indeed make combat slower, long range harder. But scrolling would be abit clunky for combat, imo. And in the first place they added zoom to simulate that objects are not as small as they should be in games vs IRL.
 
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#3
The game is mainly too fast in close quarter combat.

As due to the zoom long range if anything feels more like playing on a server with only snipers on it. On long range to spot enemies you are required to zoom, while once spotted an enemy is very easy to kill. People mostly seem to go for potshots on long range rather than attacking.

At long ranges it is much more difficult to detect people, there is a huge amount of fog, post processing effects, and blurring in of characters in the background. Which generally forces you to zoom most of the time to even notice enemies at the 200m mark. While in RO while enemies were small you could perfectly see them up to around 300 meters.

In regard to the people disliking zoom its primarily to stop the game acting as if its a sniper game, its not that people want to make that part even worse. What people generally want is to make the wide fov actually useful for detecting enemies. As that is what you would use your full 180 degree view for in real life.

People are sensitive to control input, forcing people to use something like a scrollwheel is not desired. If anything give people the options to automatically zoom when going into iron sight, not zoom when in iron sight and zoom when pressing a button. Give people options in that regard do not take it away. Its annoying enough already that we have a lot of multi function buttons that cannot easily be separated.

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Things in my opinion that generally work to make the zoom better.

- Reduce the max zoom, the max zoom in the game is in the amount of 2.2x, this means that when zoomed in enemies take up roughly 5 times the amount of pixels as the un zoomed state. This makes people 5 times easier to spot in the zoomed mode. Essentially forcing you to zoom in to be able to spot enemies that are lurking when zoomed. Reducing the max zoom to something like 1.5-1.8x makes it only 2-3x easier to spot enemies when zoomed. If the difference between the zoomed and non zoomed fov becomes smaller, it will become possible for the regular engagement ranges of <200 meters to actually spot enemies with your wide fov. DH and KF both have quite some zoom, yet its far less problematic than it is in HOS.

- Allow people to zoom on the move. In reality your eyes don't zoom and things look of equal size even when running. Why above all the big realistic disadvantages that exist in reality when moving around, add another big disadvantage that doesn't exist in reality. The zoom as implemented in ArmA feels a lot better and natural than how RO does it. Especially since in RO, the sprint button is used to zoom.

- Increase the visibility in maps, the more fog etc there is the harder people are to detect. The harder people are to detect the more you need to zoom in to actually spot people and thus rendering the wide fov useless. Make it possible to detect people in the wide fov and then zoom to not have to pixelhunt. Rather than using zoom as a form of scope or binoculars to look around the battlefield.

- Change the head bob to only have translational movement rather than angular rotation. Generally your balance organ is able to balance any headbob quite well and rotate your eyes to counteract the effects (so the position of the eyes change but not so much where the eyes are aimed at). Especially in the far distance head bob should not have a great effect on your ability to see things, making vection the key component that makes it more difficult to see.
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To slow down game play especially in cqc, rather make the transition to iron sights slower or add a small amount of time for lining up the sights perfectly. Increase the sway slightly so people might miss and warn their opponent inducing firefights, and requiring more time in making the perfect shot. Make stamina and health, suppression affect your marksmanship.

Gameplay is more fun when both you and your opponent know where both of you are, but it simply being more difficult to pop each other. That's when you can get firefights happening at long range. And if you actually see enemies and have difficulty hitting him some people might actually end up using suppression fire.

Your eyes have the fastest muscles in your body, and can rotate with a speed of 1000 degrees per second. Putting penalties on your vision is generally an odd thing to do.
 
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#4
I understand idea of the zoom, but right now not everyone is happy so I try to find a solution.

Andrew Blake said:
So if I got you right. You want to remove auto zooming in, and replace it with scrolling zoom with the mouse? While starting with no zoom.
Click to expand...

Yes

This may not be the mouse wheel this can be any other button on the keyboard.
Also a player can not adjust the zoom.
"zoom" stops when it reaches a maximum.

Speed of "zoom" will depend on how much we are tired.
After a long run you are tired so you should focus more before you shot.
Another plus of this solution we do not need a stronger "weapon sway"
Because the time to achieve full "zoom" will be long enough.


Andrew Blake said:
That would indeed make combat slower, long range harder. But scrolling would be abit clunky for combat, imo. And in the first place they added zoom to simulate that objects are not as small as they should be in games vs IRL.
Click to expand...


Maybe because my idea someone will finds a better solution.
Even if now is easier to see targets from 200+ metters to be honest is too easy to shot them down.
To hit the target from that distance in real life you have to aim longer.
Especially when you're tired.

Summing up my idea.

1. This solution will slow down the game.
2. You can still hit distant targets.
3. You don't need stronger "weapon sway" becouse of "zoom" focus time.
4. Close-up shooting will be easier becouse "zoom" will be turned off.
 
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#5
There are various ways of "fixing" the combat, as currently its too easy to hit far away targets.

Zet have many good ideas, but I disagree with the zoom. I feel that we should have a big combination of small changes to achive the gameplay we wish, Not much drastic big ones.

I want to comment more here now, but I don't have the time right now...
 
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#10
_Dariuszek_ said:
You have right, "zoom" focus time should be the same for all players.
Click to expand...

Especially considering the principle behind the zoom. It's not a superhuman ability, it is simply a remedy for the visual handicap that exists in the game's normal fov squeezed onto a computer screen. To handicap the remedy for a handicap based on things like fatique makes no sense.
 
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#12
I have 3 recommendations.

1-
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=74104

2-
Randomize the direction the gun points on the screen when bought to iron sight mode. because we already have free-aim with iron sights, the screen wouldn't change angle, just the sights. this would force players to adjust their aim more for long range shots and could be linked to stamina and suppression (the more tired or under fire you are, the farther away the random aim point could be from the point it's brought to now)
as realistic as a brief moment of misalignment would be, I think that would take a new animation, which is a lot more work than adding a variable to the aim point.
the variable aim point I suggest would have the same effect and also simulate the difficulty of point shooting at long range while not hindering closer range shots as much. Bringing up iron sights in real life is fast, but aiming is slow.

3-
the problem of long range accuracy doesn't stem so much from the zoom but the fact that keeping a mouse steady is much easier than keeping a gun steady. this is why I think that adding more sway, perhaps not quite as much as RO1 but certainly more than now, would do just enough to make some long range shots miss as opposed to the incredible hit rate seen now.
 
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#15
RoastinGhost said:
I have 3 recommendations.

1-
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=74104

2-
Randomize the direction the gun points on the screen when bought to iron sight mode. because we already have free-aim with iron sights, the screen wouldn't change angle, just the sights. this would force players to adjust their aim more for long range shots and could be linked to stamina and suppression (the more tired or under fire you are, the farther away the random aim point could be from the point it's brought to now)
as realistic as a brief moment of misalignment would be, I think that would take a new animation, which is a lot more work than adding a variable to the aim point.
the variable aim point I suggest would have the same effect and also simulate the difficulty of point shooting at long range while not hindering closer range shots as much.

3-
the problem of long range accuracy doesn't stem so much from the zoom but the fact that keeping a mouse steady is much easier than keeping a gun steady. this is why I think that adding more sway, perhaps not quite as much as RO1 but certainly more than now, would do just enough to make some long range shots miss as opposed to the incredible hit rate seen now.
Click to expand...

approved
 
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#16
Okey my take on how to make a better gamplay.

1. A bit longer time to aim down sights 0,2-0,4 sec slower with sights a bit misaligned for 0,1-0,2secs after getting the gun to your shoulder.
-Adding this will make less ramboing, slower approach better and remove the ability to stop and quickly shoot enemies 200m away.


2. Remove ability to "focus" while zooming, when you are suppressed.
-Encourages teamplay, tactics and makes suppression useful.


3. Make running a little bit slower, around 10%.
-Why? Because that will make "less" issues with lag, (aka leading very far in front of enemies) and Make gamplay little bit slower.


4. Make it possible to zoom in while running about 1.8x zoom. The head bobbing should be a little more noticeable because of the zoom.
-Makes less sniping matches(aka fallen heroes, Because you can spot enemies while on the move.
Zet covered it pretty well, thought we have a bit different take on the matter. Adding Max zoom would indeed be the best way of making the attackers as easily as the defenders spot the enemy, It would also be realistic.

But it doesn't make a realistic gameplay, IRL it's hard to spot specific objects while running. You should not be able to spot targets as easily as a defender standing still and observing the battlefield. Having a bit smaller zoom than max is a good way of simulating it.

You could of course add a bit blur or something around the edges of the screen to simulate that. But that deprives you of even more FOV, which in the end makes it look like you are putting a magnifying glass against you eye while running.

5. And lots of small stuff to fix not really the core gameplay, so not so important.
 
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#17
the difficulties to spot things when running are primarily due to the effective flow based on both your character moving as well as the balance organ not being super accurate in the sense of counteracting the head bob.

However your actual eyes do not change at higher speeds. For instance in a car or airplane you can look pretty perfectly. If you look directly in the way you are heading.

The thing is the effects that make it more difficult to see while moving around in real life are in game, your head moves, your character moves. This creates a moving image where its more difficult for you as computer user to focus on. Just as in real life.

Spoiler!


Anyway since the zoom afaik is based in angular movements in game when zooming in the effect should automatically be bigger while for instance running.

------------------------------------------------

While I personally hate free aim in first person from a control perspective.

I think that the ironsights starting at the center automatically should be removed. Even though Initially I was one of the persons that preferred it that way. (purely as it somewhat allows me to evade the free aim).

Next to that if you change stance, like go from crouch to standing the gun should change within the free aim circle as well.

However I would not like anything like blurry vision for a while when going into ironsights, or an inability to learn and fire accurately when waiting for sights to line up or whatever. Its important that players are in full control over their character.
 
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#19
The world while moving in game is static. It feels like you are zooming on to the objects in the world, rather than moving in it. You do not have depth (if you don't use 3d sofware, etc), the head bobbing is small as it should respectively against what you would notice IRL. Thought in IRL there is alot more head bobbing but it gets filtered out. But it is still there and disrupts focus.
 
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#20
Andrew Blake said:
The world while moving in game is static. It feels like you are zooming on to the objects in the world, rather than moving in it.
Click to expand...

The reason for this is that your view is fixed to your character aka the center of your screen is pretty much always in the exact direction you are looking in. And next to that in game you look far in the distance.

In the far distance the relative effect of headbob in real life is much less, as head bob effects primarily the xyz position of your head but not so much in terms of rotation.

If you start running yourself, notice that objects close by are hard to focus on, but you can look quite well into the distance without much of an issue. As the relative movement seems much smaller. The only thing is that the head bob compensation is not perfect which makes it that your eyes move around slightly off.
 
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