How to Fix the M14

[Jameh]

Alright, so, I know we have a HUGE thread here on the front page about the M14, but I read through most of it and came out with only a few worthy suggestions from the arguing about how to actually fix it.

So, a few observations I made while playing Commando.. I conserve ammo and take more time with shots when the gun has a scope. Bullpup and SCAR? All headshots (Which is why my damage is taking so damn long to level up on Commando as well). The AK? I hipfire it most of the time, mostly because I hate using the iron sights when I have two guns with nice scopes/sights on them.

So, my suggestions are as follows, feel free to POLITELY converse or suggest things you would suggest be done differently.


-Give it a scope/sight: This will make aiming actually pay off. An ACOG would look badass on an M14, but you could always just hack the scope model off the SCAR, or maybe even the Bullpup. Either way, make people actually aim the M14. This leads to...

-Remove the laser: Sharpshooters don't use lasers, they use scopes and sights. If you want to give the laser to anyone, give it to someone like a commando or Medic for the MP7 (Maybe replace the SCAR's scope with the laser? Just a thought).

-Cut the ammo supply down: 300 rounds for a sharpshooter? No way. Cut the ammo pool down to 160, plenty if the Sharpshooter is actually shooting sharp and carrying a decent backup weapon, which leads to another point..

-Increase the weight: Come on, 5 blocks?! That means any SS can have an M14, LAR, AND Dual Handcannons. A total of, at the moment, 476 rounds, not including the M9. That's 124 away from a fully-loaded Commando with an AK and a SCAR, and Sharpshooters can kill way more with way less. I don't really know what would be a good weight to increase to, but maybe this isn't the right way to go.

-Decrease Magazine size: Not too sure about this one either. Decreasing the mag size to 10 would make the M14 an over-glorified LAR, especially seeing as my next suggestion is..

-Decrease the Rate of Fire: Decrease the ROF just slightly, so you can't just click away. I don't use the M14 much, so I can't speak precisely, but I believe there isn't a pause of any sort when firing. The handcannon, however, does. Maybe implement something like that?

That's my list so far. Things in orange, I'm not too sure about changing, or how to implement it so that it doesn't destroy balance. Things in green I'm pretty sure would help fix the problem. So, please, make some suggestions or tweaks and help me out with this, I'm sure the M14 can be saved.

 

[C_Gibby]

There was a thread from the TWI guys which was used to pile in the balance suggestions, which includes the M14 nerf.

Sorry, you missed it.

 

[Olivier]

There was a thread from the TWI guys which was used to pile in the balance suggestions, which includes the M14 nerf.

Sorry, you missed it.

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=43348

 

[C_Gibby]

[url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=43348[/URL]

Yeah, well it's locked.

 

[Vaecrius]

Heh, I like how it's basically the same bunch of suggestions from everyone except for one guy.

I just gotta add re: making aiming pay off. I think right now using the M14 sights is just terrible on any cost/benefit analysis within the context* of the game - the restricted FOV, huge view blockage and itty bitty little sight mean it takes ages to acquire a target - and the recoil means if you're aiming for the head once you've fired you've lost that target as far as seeing it goes.

When you combine this with the fact that KF rarely gives ranges where you either aim or not hit at all, versus you either aim or fail to hit an instantly lethal spot, given the small difference between hitting that spot and hitting anywhere else on the target the M14's sights become all stick and no carrot.



*or "scope" hurrrrrr hurrrrrrr

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

Heh, I like how it's basically the same bunch of suggestions from everyone except for one guy.

i'm guessing you're suggesting that i am that "one guy" as i've been posting in the other thread? dude, more than 10 threads with upwards to thousands of posts by hundreds of members were made before you joined these forums. no offense but have you actually read all those posts, each of those threads and every one of those suggestions? i'm doubtful of that.

anyway, i honestly don't understand why these threads are allowed to keep popping up with the same suggestions being made over and over and over again despite most all of them lacking any validity for actually fixing the main issue that the EBR presents.

looking at the EBR as a weapon, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the EBR. it is a great weapon to spam at all zeds and does an effective job filling the role of "mop up". however there is one major issue with which perk the weapon is attributed to......the SS isn't intended to a "mop up" role and EBR doesn't belong there as it allows one perk to fill multiple roles and make other perks "inferior" at doing the jobs they were designed for.

the practical fix: the EBR is removed from the SS perk and given to the more appropriate perk, which would be the commando. that's my stance and i'm sticking to it.....if we wanting start arguing specifics again, i'll be happy to copy-paste from other threads

 

[Evilsod]

the practical fix: the EBR is removed from the SS perk and given to the more appropriate perk, which would be the commando. that's my stance and i'm sticking to it.....if we wanting start arguing specifics again, i'll be happy to copy-paste from other threads

That is not a practical fix, thats just plain lazy. If you were gonna move the M14 to the Commando you may aswell just remove it entirely, the Commando doesn't want or need the M14 when it has the SCAR. Whether you want to argue or not that the Sharpshooter doesn't need the M14 is irrelevant, it has it and now it needs balancing to make it a Sharpshooters weapon.

 

[C_Gibby]

The Commando doesn't want the M14

True words right here.

 

[Deafmute]

True words right here.

Seconding this. Keep that thing away from us. :IS2:

 

[SMIFF]

That is not a practical fix, thats just plain lazy. If you were gonna move the M14 to the Commando you may aswell just remove it entirely, the Commando doesn't want or need the M14 when it has the SCAR.

Agreed

 

[Vaecrius]

anyway, i honestly don't understand why these threads are allowed to keep popping up with the same suggestions being made over and over and over again despite most all of them lacking any validity for actually fixing the main issue that the EBR presents.

They lack such validity because your "main issue" is not the one that these proposed fixes the rest of us keep going on about are meant at all to address.

As far as our "main issue" is concerned they seem quite reasonable.

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

what some of you people fail to comprehend is that the EBR is not broken. what is broken is the SS perk having access to a weapon that gives the perk the ability to fill multiple roles, which renders other perks inferior.

some of you are looking too deeply into posing hypothetical solutions to fix a "problem" that actually isn't a problem. what i'm doing is actual problem solving to first pinpoint the root of a problem and then find a logical and practical solution to fix it. that's not being lazy, that's actually using your brain. when you actually look at the stats, the EBR is almost identically to the SCAR as an effective weapon to spam. there is no arguing against that. you all even acknowledge this is true by posting solutions to make the EBR less effective at spamming. one weapon is a battle rifle, the other weapon is a battle rifle.

what's the phrase....if it looks like a dog, smells like a dog and barks like a dog, then it's probably a dog? basically, what you guys are suggesting is taking a weapon that's obviously a dog and "tweeking" it to become less of a dog in the hopes that it will end up being a cat.

 

[Vaecrius]

If you're going to keep insisting that the SCAR is the same as the EBR I'm going to ask to confirm if you're playing the Killing Floor retail version by Tripwire Interactive, or another game or mod by a similar name.

 

[Johnny Darko]

If you're going to keep insisting that the SCAR is the same as the EBR I'm going to ask to confirm if you're playing the Killing Floor retail version by Tripwire Interactive, or another game or mod by a similar name.

Use the alt-fire with the SCAR. It plays pretty similar to the M14.

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

If you're going to keep insisting that the SCAR is the same as the EBR I'm going to ask to confirm if you're playing the Killing Floor retail version by Tripwire Interactive, or another game or mod by a similar name.

oh trust me......we play the same game. thing is that you continue to reject my claim without producing any evidence to counter it. instead you twist it around and make it my responsibility to provide a more "valid" case to support my arguement despite the fact that you have not even made an attempt to prove why my claim is incorrect. just to be nice, i'll go ahead and give you the undisputable facts that support my claim just to show you how truely ignorant you are.

for starters, this comment pretty much summarizes it:

Use the alt-fire with the SCAR. It plays pretty similar to the M14.

but since that probably wouldn't be enough for you, let's actually look into the actual weapon stats:

SCAR
Damage: 75-85
Fire Rate (per second): .096
DPS (damage per second): 833
Reload Time: 2.966
DPS after reload: 327
-----------------------------
Mag Size: 20 rounds
Mag Capacity: 14
Total Bullets: 300
Base Price: 2500
Level6 Discount: 749
Weight Blocks: 5

M14EBR
Damage: 110-115
Fire Rate (per second): .175
DPS (damage per second): 614
Reload Time: 3.366
DPS after reload: 315
------------------------------
Mag Size: 20 rounds
Mag Capacity: 14
Total Bullets: 300
Base Price: 2500
Level6 Discount: 749
Weight Blocks: 5

Now, lets analyze this info shall we?

• both weapons have the same base cost and cost after perk discounts.
• both weapons have the same mag size
• both weapons have the same ammo capacity.
• both weapons have semi-auto capability
• both weapons' DPS after reload are nearly identical (SCAR slightly higher)
• both weapons have the same weight blocks

sound pretty similar so far don't they? now let's look into some "differences":

• the EBR has a slightly higher base damage (per bullet)
• the EBR has a slightly faster base reload speed
• the SCAR has a substancially higher DPS (damage per second)
• the SCAR has a substancially higher rate of fire

so, each has 2 stats that are "better" than 2 stats of the other weapon and 2 stats that are "worse" than 2 stats of the other weapon. that means they cancel out to making each equal. let's look at weapon attachments which also cancel out for making aiming easier:

• EBR has a laser sight
• the SCAR has a red dot scope

here is where perk bonuses present the "issues" that encourage many people to believe that the EBR is "better" than the SCAR:

• max damage bonus: SS-60% Commando-50%
• max recoil reduction: SS-75% Commando-40%
• max reload speed increase: SS-60% Commando-35%
• max headshot multiplyer: SS-50% Commando-0%

it's only because the EBR receives greater bonuses that the weapon appears to be more powerful, faster to reload etc... than the SCAR. before all those perk bonuses are applied, the two guns are equals. if the EBR received the same bonuses as the SCAR, they'd still be equal in the end in terms of "spamming effectiveness". the EBR currently has base stats and attributes that balance to be equal to that of the SCAR, however because of also having "better" SS based bonuses applied to the weapon, it puts the EBR over the top as it's equal to the SCAR in terms of "spamming" while also being much more effective at "precision shooting", thus allowing the SS perk to use this weapon to do the job of both perks. if you remove the SS bonuses and replace them with the commando bonuses instead, then the weapons are back to being equal in terms of "spamming effectiveness". the only way to easily do that is make the EBR a commando's weapon.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

there you have it.....i've provided the stats to back my suggestion and claim. now can you please explain to me how exactly these two weapons are so different that they both shouldn't belong to the same perk?

 

[CandleJack]

If you're going to keep insisting that the SCAR is the same as the EBR

I'll say they're not the same, but if you look at the weapons they're based on, they fulfil the same roles, fire the same bullet, have the same magazine size and have the same full/semi-auto capability.

Though the majority of M14s had their full-auto ability removed because a battle rifle with full-auto is just silly. Imagine the SCAR with the M14's recoil.

They're pretty much the same in KF though, the only difference is that the SCAR is a sharpshooter weapon. The specific version of the SCAR in KF, the SCAR-H Mk17 Mod0 is a rifle designed to be a DMR.

IMO TWI gave the SCAR and the EBR to the wrong perks.

 

[Azukki]

OP has it pretty close to the changes I would suggest. Take it down a peg by removing the features that are more characteristic of commando than sharp, thus making the M14 and sharp more distinct from the scar and commando, and more balanced in generalized 'power levels'.

Although I think a base damage decrease and a proportional headshot multiplier increase could possibly be swell too. Same headshot damage, lower body shot damage. Might not be necessary, so long as the m14 gets nerfed enough by being slowed down. Increased base damage could even be good, so long as the M14 is slowed down enough to make it balanced by tier 3 standards.

The SCAR and M14 shouldn't change perks, the m14 just needs to be made into an actual distinct sharpshooter weapon.
Please don't mess with commando or the scar, they're currently perfect, in my opinion.

 

[Cryect]

Its balanced by one simple fact. No sharpshooter should be using the M14 when they should be using the Crossbow especially on suicidal since they one shot Fleshpounds and Scrakes with ease. Commandos take care of all the little things that are left over.

 

[Vaecrius]

For me, all the hitscan weapons are pretty much the same thing - click, bullet, damage - with the difference being

1. ROF
2. DPS
3. perceived recoil
4. appearance

...in all of which (possibly except for 3) the two weapons differ substantially.


Meanwhile, I'll also second Azukki's final paragraph... and in light of all the circumstances of the game and because frankly I wouldn't have cared if all the weapons in this game were purely fictional, Evilsod's August 18th post.

 

[ShyMiningStar]

That debate over the M14 reminds me of the WWII game "Brotehrs in Arms Road to Hill 30": you mostly had 2 teams assault- and fireteam I think a compare would be a good idee here.

The assault team is to flank the enemy after suppressing it with teh fireteam. The fireteam had (mostly) automatic guns and the assault team had something similar to the M14(not automatic but still a high firerate).
But also often the fireteam used the same weapon as the assaultteam
to suppress the enemy beacause of its high firerate.

At the same time that weapon I'm talking about both teams used in that game was for the US Soldiers the compensation of the
german K98 rifle and it's no lie if you say the K98 Rifle IS (not was) the best rifle ever made (the diffrence here was that you had to reload after each shot of your 5 buellets mag).
So as you can see our M14 here can fulfill 2 roles: You can assault the enemy from a close range, you can suppress the enemy but it CAN also be used as a precise rifle.
As a conclusion it's fifty fifty if the M14 would have been added to the cammando perk you could do the same debate because it has no fully automatic firemode.
Fact is the M14 fulfills 2 roles the question is is that wanted?

The m14 is a rifle but since it has no scope I suppose it's not wanted as a sniper rifle for teh Sharpshooter perk in the game.

And I support a higher resistance for the berserker and more than 100 health for the Berserker.

YouTube - Brothers in Arms Training Tutorial

if it looks like a dog, smells like a dog and barks like a dog, then it's probably a dog? basically, what you guys are suggesting is taking a weapon that's obviously a dog and "tweeking" it to become less of a dog in the hopes that it will end up being a cat.