How to Fix the M14

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-[SiN]-bswearer

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 3, 2008
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yay, somebody likes my analogy :)

like i tried to show in my earlier "statistics" post, the EBR and SCAR that are currently in the game are both equally effective as "mop up" weapons. one has full-auto capability for higher DPS and higher rate of fire, while the other has a higher base damage and quicker reload to compensate. when push comes to shove there is no denying that all of the base stats of the two weapons balance out to have two very similar weapons. the only differences are due to very different perk bonuses being applied to the weapons.

regardless of what the SCAR-H is in reality (the sniper variant of the weapon), TW clearly designed the weapon in the game to be a commando's gun as they allowed full-auto capability and the "scope" it got is just a red dot sight and has no magnification. as for the EBR, TW just screwd the pooch on that one by giving the weapon to the wrong class.

when you actually look at the situation and possible solutions, there's not one logical reason why TW should invest all the time and energy needed to morph a weapon into something that is isn't. "Reducing" a problem is not the best way to handle as situation like this, FIXING a problem is the proper solution. my solution FIXES the problem and it's 100x more practical a solution than any suggestion(s) that people have tried to propose for converting the EBR into a proper SS's weapon.
 
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CandleJack

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 2, 2009
3,408
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VIC
The fireteam had (mostly) automatic guns and the assault team had something similar to the M14(not automatic but still a high firerate).
But also often the fireteam used the same weapon as the assaultteam
to suppress the enemy beacause of its high firerate.

Would that gun similar to the M14 be either the M1 Garand or M1 Carbine by any chance?
Spoiler!
Spoiler!

At the same time that weapon I'm talking about both teams used in that game was for the US Soldiers the compensation of the
german K98 rifle and it's no lie if you say the K98 Rifle IS (not was) the best rifle ever made (the diffrence here was that you had to reload after each shot of your 5 buellets mag).

Actually, the Gewehr 98K was the best bolt-action rifle ever made. Bolt-action was the term you were looking for mate.

So as you can see our M14 here can fulfill 2 roles: You can assault the enemy from a close range, you can suppress the enemy but it CAN also be used as a precise rifle.
As a conclusion it's fifty fifty if the M14 would have been added to the cammando perk you could do the same debate because it has no fully automatic firemode.
Fact is the M14 fulfills 2 roles the question is is that wanted?

The m14 is a rifle but since it has no scope I suppose it's not wanted as a sniper rifle for teh Sharpshooter perk in the game.

And I support a higher resistance for the berserker and more than 100 health for the Berserker.

Yeah, the fact the M14 can be a sharpshooter weapon, but the way it's configured now promotes commando-like playing; with the damage, magazine, recoil and reload that it has there is a huge problem.

Also the reason that most M14s (not just KF's) had the fully-auto capability removed was simple. Imagine shooting the M14 without using sharpshooter. Now imagine that on full-auto. Yeah, i'd remove full-auto too. :D

I remember in a thread a while ago someone said that the Tier 3 weapons were awesomely buffed versions of the Tier 1 weapons.
Bullpup has a EoTech sight, SCAR has a similar sight.
LAR has iron sights, M14 has iron sights.
 

ShyMiningStar

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 5, 2010
61
16
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more practical a solution than any suggestion(s) that people have tried to propose for converting the EBR into a proper SS's weapon.

I think the same converting will not work it's not a 100% SS weapon. I don't want to meddle me in the m14 fix since it actually doesn't bother me. But people obviously don't like it. And I also don't want to tell anyone what he has to do ... if I had to chose I would replace the weapon ...

EBR and SCAR ... two very similar weapons ... the only differences are due to very different perk bonuses being applied to the weapons.

Yes for example the HS dmg Bonus makes the FP gone in 3 seconds hehe.

Would that gun similar to the M14 be either the M1 Garand or M1 Carbine by any chance?
Spoiler!

That one (M1 Garand an excellent all-purpose rifle), thank you I couldnt remember/find the name.

Also the reason that most M14s (not just KF's) had the fully-auto capability removed was simple. Imagine shooting the M14 without using sharpshooter. Now imagine that on full-auto. Yeah, i'd remove full-auto too. :D

Would be a lot of recoil in full auto yes.

I remember in a thread a while ago someone said that the Tier 3 weapons were awesomely buffed versions of the Tier 1 weapons.
Bullpup has a EoTech sight, SCAR has a similar sight.
LAR has iron sights, M14 has iron sights.

Tier 3 weapons just let me understand the term correct, I think you mean weapons which fall in the category "select specialty weapons" (from settings controls) like hunting shotgun Scar m14? Wasn't sure :)
 
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-[SiN]-bswearer

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 3, 2008
3,476
1,942
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some people won't like anything and that's just a sacrifice you have to make when solving problems. example: some people RAGED when the auto-katana "fire" ability was removed.....they eventually got over it.

i don't care if a few people have replied to my suggestion saying it wouldn't work. when i look to solve problems, i look for the best solution for fixing the problem regardless of whether or not some individuals won't like the idea. i've given plenty of undisputable stats and logical as to why my suggestion would work whereas almost every other suggestion/arguement has been refuted or found to not be a valid solution to fixing the problem at hand.

TW will ultimately decide what to do. some people will be pissed, some won't care and some may not even notice. it's only a matter of time before they finallly update the game and we'll see what happens
 

SMIFF

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 19, 2009
1,828
804
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when i look to solve problems, i look for the best solution for fixing the problem

You havnt found it yet

I dont mean to insult you but giving the commando a second tier 3 weapon is rediculous, being able to carry both the M14 and SCAR with commando bonuses would still be overpowered.

It would basically be another SCAR without full auto, but with all the extra ammo

EDIT: And just for the record, It wasnt me that disliked your post lol
 

Uk1t4k3

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 21, 2009
454
88
0
Singapore
bswearer provided us the clues to the weapons with some detailed informations on both battle rifle and explained that they are both pretty much similar with EBR having a slight edge on damage comparing to SCAR-H.

Sure SCAR-H damage per shot is lower than M14 EBR but it compensate itself with it high rate of fire at full auto. EBR excel greatly in the hands of a high level SS making it a SPAMABLE weapon. The main problem causing the 'M14 OP hype' is due to the perk itself and i do recall somewhere in this forum somebody did point out that the M14 has a higher headshot multiplier than normal weapons?

If u minus off the 60% recoil the M14 will have insane recoil, even with commando's 30% all weapons recoil reduction the M14 still won't fit in as a OP spamable weapon for commando.
 

SMIFF

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 19, 2009
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You are missing the point, the commando will effectively be able to carry 2 tier 3 weapons, pretty much giving him unlimited ammo for each wave
 

-[SiN]-bswearer

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 3, 2008
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I dont mean to insult you but giving the commando a second tier 3 weapon is rediculous, being able to carry both the M14 and SCAR with commando bonuses would still be overpowered.

actually i never suggested that both weapons could be carried at the same time. no other perk can carry two of it's perk's highest tiered weapons, so it should be the same with the commando. a while back i made it perfectly clear that a commando could be able to carry either the EBR or the SCAR but never both at the same time. i believe looking at the stats, both would have to be increased to 7 blocks instead of the current 5. so the EBR would just be an alternative choice to carry with the AK/bullpup instead of the SCAR.

It would basically be another SCAR without full auto, but with all the extra ammo

well, both already have the same amount of rounds so neither would have "extra ammo", but you're right it would basically be another SCAR, which is exactly why i proposed the move to begin with

EDIT: And just for the record, It wasnt me that disliked your post lol

don't worry lol. i've got plenty of "rep" points that it really doesn't bug me that a couple people have been trolling my posts recently......and i know who it is and it's not you :D

bswearer provided us the clues to the weapons with some detailed informations on both battle rifle and explained that they are both pretty much similar with EBR having a slight edge on damage comparing to SCAR-H.

Sure SCAR-H damage per shot is lower than M14 EBR but it compensate itself with it high rate of fire at full auto. EBR excel greatly in the hands of a high level SS making it a SPAMABLE weapon. The main problem causing the 'M14 OP hype' is due to the perk itself and i do recall somewhere in this forum somebody did point out that the M14 has a higher headshot multiplier than normal weapons?

If u minus off the 60% recoil the M14 will have insane recoil, even with commando's 30% all weapons recoil reduction the M14 still won't fit in as a OP spamable weapon for commando.

yup you seem to have the basic concept of the idea! :)
 
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SMIFF

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 19, 2009
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I only recall you saying to "move the m14 to commando" nothing about weight increases, well i didnt read it if you did.

but then commando will have too many weapons, unless you want too give every other perk an extra tier 3 weapon, or like you said, move the bullpup to medic, which then leaves commando with a tier 2, and 2 tier 3 weapons, but then you also said to bring in a new weapon (L85?) or something to restore the balance. So it would still have too many weapons...

Now that may work, but sounds alot more troublesome than simply changing a few stats of the m14, like fire rate for example, that alone would stop the spamming and encourage people to aim for the head, in fear of not doing enough damage to whatever target with bodyshots before it kills them.
 

Johnny Darko

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 7, 2010
254
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actually i never suggested that both weapons could be carried at the same time. no other perk can carry two of it's perk's highest tiered weapons, so it should be the same with the commando
Technically Berserker can but I wouldn't say the Chainsaw and Katana are equal as the top tier of melee weapons at all.
 
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-[SiN]-bswearer

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 3, 2008
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I only recall you saying to "move the m14 to commando" nothing about weight increases, well i didnt read it if you did.

yeah the suggestion has been spread out through various threads.....i actually don't think i mentioned this part in this particular thread, but yes, the blocks would have to be increased so that the perk cannot carry both weapons at the same time.

Technically Berserker can but I wouldn't say the Chainsaw and Katana are equal as the top tier of melee weapons at all.

technically yes, that is if the machete is 1, axe 2, chainsaw 3, katana 3......but like you said chainsaw =/= katana.

but then commando will have too many weapons, unless you want too give every other perk an extra tier 3 weapon, or like you said, move the bullpup to medic, which then leaves commando with a tier 2, and 2 tier 3 weapons, but then you also said to bring in a new weapon (L85?) or something to restore the balance. So it would still have too many weapons...

well by "too many" i meant numerically.....since that was the arguement some people made ealier saying that "other perks only have so and so amounts of weapons". my actual opinion is that because the SCAR/EBR would be interchangeable as tier3 weapons, then nothing throws off the balance despite having 4 weapons........think zerker with 4 (actually 5 if you include the knife) perk weapons.

but to counter the "has too many weapons" argument, i offered the suggestion to move the pup to the medic, leaving the commando with AK, SCAR, EBR. adjust the AK to make it a tier1, and nerf either the SCAR or EBR to make one less effective than the other and become a tier2 with the other staying the tier3 weapon.

back to my original stance of the commando having 4 weapons and SCAR/EBR both as tier3 weapons, i thought it'd be pointless to go messing around with tweeking the numbers of 3 weapons. that's why i liked the idea that CandleJack (i think) mentioned about adding the L85 to replace the bullpup as the commando's tier1 so that the medic could recieve another "weapon", and the commando's current tier2 and tier3 (including the EBR assuming it was moved) wouldn't need to be touched.

so after all that, not one weapon's numbers have to be tweeked. 2 weapons are moved (EBR and bullpup), 1 brand new weapon is added (L85). three perks receive attention. the SS gets the nerf if needs. Medic gets a boost it needs. Commando stays balanced, BUT gets a new weapon for people to enjoy so that they get some love from TW too :D

Now that may work, but sounds alot more troublesome than simply changing a few stats of the m14, like fire rate for example, that alone would stop the spamming and encourage people to aim for the head, in fear of not doing enough damage to whatever target with bodyshots before it kills them.

it only seems troublesome because there are a few steps to follow and there's multiple weapons and perks involved. if you look at everything coding wise that'd need to be done to the EBR as it is, which again would only reduce the problem and not solve it, it'd be a much more practical solution to impliment the changes i've suggested as opposed to just looking at one weapon and still not completely "fixing" it.

like i said, my "ideal" solution with moving the EBR and pup would mean that not one weapon's numbers are touched. it'd actually be much less troublesome to just change which perk bonuses are applied to a couple weapons then actually go in and tweek the multiple stats that be needed to even "help" solved the problems with the gun. a stat like rate of fire is something that shouldnt be changed.....the EBR has a high rate of fire since it is a semi-automatic weapon. sure the game doesn't make every weapon perfectly realistic, but something like rate of fire should stay as realistic as possible. granted they could just remove the EBR's semi-auto capability, but why waste the time? why tweek stats and have to then test the new stats to determine balance when you can leave all the stats the same and have them already be balanced? remember the EBR's current stats (with commando bonuses applied instead of SS) would already produce a very balanced weapon, at least as balanced as say the SCAR is.

as for the other stats like reducing base damage, increasing reload time, adding more recoil etc... those would not stop people from spamming but just make it less effective. my approach would be to prevent people from being stupid in the first place, as opposed to letting them be stupid and then hoping that they figure out they're acting like idiots and in turn change their behavior. i'd rather set people up to be successful instead of giving them the opportunity to fail just to provide them a "learning moment".

The M14EBR will stay with the SharpShooter and the SCARMK17 will stay with the Commando. End of discussion.

sorry, but do you work for Tripwire Interactive? that's what i thought.....

so either argue points to support your opinion or refute other's opinions, or shut your pie hole :p
 

SMIFF

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 19, 2009
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So you want to turn AK into tier 1, which is a nerf, then nerf either the EBR or SCAR to fit tier 2 plus add weight so they cant both be held simultaneously

I dont see your logic, why do all that nerfing and moving around + adding new weapons and weight to make it balanced for a commando, when you could just nerf the EBR instead to make it balanced for the sharpshooter?

Nerfing fire rate regardlesss of how the weapon acts in real life is the best step forward for balancing the EBR

and medic doesnt need a boost either, medic is fine

but if you insist on moving weapons around instead, then id much rather see the EBR given to the medic, laser sight with healing darts would work pretty well
 
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