Grenade Discussion (Merged About 3000 Times)

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Solo4114

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 12, 2006
1,608
38
0
My advice:

Play on larger maps.


My request:

Please give us more larger maps.


People only seem to complain about this stuff on the urban maps. Nades, overabundance of SMGs/Semis, etc. If we actually played more maps outside of close quarters, I rather doubt it would be an issue. As it is, almost all of the official maps are close quarters maps or maps where there will be a good bit of close quarters fighting. Even the outdoor maps are largely close quarters affairs.


When it comes to assaulting a position, the nade is a fantastic weapon. I agree that people use nades in stupid ways (IE: just tossing them at random), but you can't control how other people play the game and trying to often ends up screwing up something else.

We need more maps like Berezina. Especially now that we have 50 player servers, we REALLY need larger maps.
 

melipone

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 22, 2006
1,672
259
0
Right. Just like reality.

Great, you quoted the piece I just edited :D . Poorly made sentence I though, anyway can you throw a nade in reality with 100% accuracy? Would you prime it so that it exploded as it landed or in the air (also consider fuses were not always the same length and nades could malfunction)? Would you be able to grab them as fast as you do ingame and put them away as fast? Would you chuck em in your first minute or so on the battlefield?
 
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Kaneohe

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 1, 2007
99
0
0
Great, you quoted the piece I just edited :D . Poorly made sentence I though, anyway can you throw a nade in reality with 100% accuracy? Would you prime it so that it exploded as it landed or in the air (also consider fuses were not always the same length and nades could malfunction)? Would you be able to grab them as fast as you do ingame and put them away as fast? Would you chuck em in your first minute or so on the battlefield?

Melipone, I was referring to the comment I quoted and I think you knew that.

Grenades are exceptionally dangerous weapons, and very lethal if used correctly. In addition, they require little finesse to wield accurately - at least compared to other armaments. So yes, I would say it is realistic that grenades should be both deadly and simple to use.

As for your other questions, no, that is not realistically possible. Neither are respawns, weapons that don't jam, player limits, time limits, ping numbers, ammo dumps which don't deplete, disappearing bodies, disappearing ruined tanks, or any number of other natural limitations. This is a computer game, Melipone.
 

Nyu

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
683
2
0
37
www.panzergrenadiers.com
to be honest i wouldn't mind seeing grenades removed from the game entirely since 3/4 of the people that play the game use their grenades as their primary weapon which is making me and other players not want to play in pub servers anymore.
 

Solo4114

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 12, 2006
1,608
38
0
Great, you quoted the piece I just edited :D . Poorly made sentence I though, anyway can you throw a nade in reality with 100% accuracy? Would you prime it so that it exploded as it landed or in the air (also consider fuses were not always the same length and nades could malfunction)? Would you be able to grab them as fast as you do ingame and put them away as fast? Would you chuck em in your first minute or so on the battlefield?

I don't need to throw a grenade with 100% accuracy. That's the point. I'd use my rifle if I needed accuracy. As for cooking it, that'd depend on my own battlefield experience, training, and confidence. The fuses not being the same length has been discussed before and I think it'd really just be more of a pain in the ***. Besides, I don't know anyone who primes grenades and lets the fuses run so close that they'd get blown up. The fuses seem to be about 5-seconds. Most people seem to throw around, oh, 2-3 if they wait at all.

As far as whipping the weapon out of your belt, I agree that animation speeds could be tweaked for ALL animations, but that's not something unique to grenades.


There's lots of things I'd do in real life differently from in game, by the way. If I ran out of ammo and was reloading, then had an enemy come around the corner on me, I wouldn't try to finish reloading. I'd try to beat the hell out of him with my rifle or stab him or whatever, even if my bolt was still open. Likewise, if my rifle was shot out of my hand, the grenade wouldn't necessarily be the first thing I'd grab for, but if I did (and it was a potato masher) I'd use it to bash the enemy over the head rather than say "Hang on a second. Let me unscrew the buttcap here first and then we can see what happens." And so on, and so forth.

Look, I don't deny that nades are easy to use. They're supposed to be. I could see maybe adding some element of free-aim in the throwing animations (if it's not already there), but aside from stuff like that, there are limits to what can be modelled.


Honestly, I think the real problem is that we're in a transitional phase on RO right now where we've got WAY more people on maps that were never designed for them. So, whereas a mapper might design, say, Stalingrad Kessel to have only the SMGers have grenades (to avoid nade spam and say to hell with realism), we don't have that yet. Likewise, I think we've got a whole mess of close-quarters maps where SMGs, semi-autos, grenades, and other "noobish" weapons that "require no skill or less skill" excel.


For the record, though, I don't think that SMGs require LESS skill to use than a rifle. They just require DIFFERENT skills. Same with nades, really. Some people seem able to toss nades pretty much anywhere, have 'em land perfectly, and blow me up repeatedly while I under throw, over throw, try to toss 'em in a window and have them bounce back, etc.


Kind of like in the old Unreal Tournament game, the shock rifle, while it took precision and accuracy, took no less skill to use than clever placement of Flak Gun shells, shot in such a way that it knocked people off of ledges, blew up people dodging in mid-air, etc. It ain't about more/less skill. It's about different skills for different situations and different weapons.
 

Solo4114

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 12, 2006
1,608
38
0
to be honest i wouldn't mind seeing grenades removed from the game entirely since 3/4 of the people that play the game use their grenades as their primary weapon which is making me and other players not want to play in pub servers anymore.

I'm sure pretty much everyone here wouldn't mind if everyone else out there had to play the game the way they personally enjoy playing, but frankly, I'm glad that everyone's personal preferences can't be forced upon me.
 

melipone

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 22, 2006
1,672
259
0
After playing INS mod for the last few days I've really noticed the difference coming back..man INS does nades 10x better than RO. They take time to take out, people don't get 2 every spawn (depends on class but maximum is 1). Added to that people don't respawn almost instantly like in RO - takes usually around 20 secs or more to respawn so theres fewer nades flying round. They are also not that powerful unless they land quite close and can't be thrown that far AND don't seem to be particularly accurate. RO devs..take a look at INS for how nades should be in RO.

The gameplay effect is huge..more tactical - people can take time to form groups and attack without much fear of getting spammed to death. People use their guns to kill..people are more careful because it takes longer to respawn. INS mod devs have nades spot on.

 

Kaneohe

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 1, 2007
99
0
0
After playing INS mod for the last few days I've really noticed the difference coming back..man INS does nades 10x better than RO. They take time to take out, people don't get 2 every spawn (depends on class but maximum is 1). Added to that people don't respawn almost instantly like in RO - takes usually around 20 secs or more to respawn so theres fewer nades flying round. They are also not that powerful unless they land quite close and can't be thrown that far AND don't seem to be particularly accurate. RO devs..take a look at INS for how nades should be in RO.​


The gameplay effect is huge..more tactical - people can take time to form groups and attack without much fear of getting spammed to death. People use their guns to kill..people are more careful because it takes longer to respawn. INS mod devs have nades spot on.​

That, if applied to RO, would be a very thorough nerfing.
 

Boz

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 1, 2006
72
1
0
Florida
I have not posted in this topic and have stayed out of this general discussion mainly because I have no better idea for nade implementation at this time. As is, the nades seem to be fine. The only problem I see is map desgin and the overall respawn design. It is really easy in RO to throw 2 nades, get killed and be back throwing 2 nades within a matter of seconds. That is the overall problem. The accuracy comes from the fact that when you die you still know where you died from and can easlily go back and take that guy out with the "god like" knowledge of exactly where he is at. There really is no help for this in a computer game. (Unless you die and the game uninstalls forever....not much of a "game" this way though):D Splatt has been experimenting with no nades, 1 nades etc on certain maps and I believe that is the answer, let individual servers decide and implement nades based on how they want their servers run. Other than that, leave them alone. If you play this game alot and KNOW the weaknesses listed above, it is easy to avoid getting killed by nades. Sometimes there is no help for it....oh well, good thing it doesn't uninstall!

Melipone, I too have been playing INS here the last few days. I don't like the nades at all there. They are useless, ineffective and combersome almost to the point of even why have them and that is not the point of putting nades into a game. So I hope that RO does not use INS as an example of how to implement nades into their game.
 

[5.SS] Herr Hut

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 11, 2006
126
2
0
I don't understand how implementing a longer time to switch weapons would be nerfing anything...

In game I have seen someone switch from rifle to nade, throw it and switch back to rifle within 3 seconds... I've had it done to me, I've done it to others. Time it out for yourself.

If switching weapons took a more reasonable amount of time people would still "spam" them, but they would at least use their main weapon in most other situations rather than instaswitching to nades. I think this is the only adjustment that should be made. Taking away nades is NOT the answer.
 

Reddog

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 7, 2005
2,573
476
0
Australia
After playing INS mod for the last few days I've really noticed the difference coming back..man INS does nades 10x better than RO. They take time to take out, people don't get 2 every spawn (depends on class but maximum is 1). Added to that people don't respawn almost instantly like in RO - takes usually around 20 secs or more to respawn so theres fewer nades flying round. They are also not that powerful unless they land quite close and can't be thrown that far AND don't seem to be particularly accurate. RO devs..take a look at INS for how nades should be in RO.

The gameplay effect is huge..more tactical - people can take time to form groups and attack without much fear of getting spammed to death. People use their guns to kill..people are more careful because it takes longer to respawn. INS mod devs have nades spot on.

Well first off I'd say INS does nades poorly.

For one the Marines patrolling and fighting in Iraq certainly carry more than 1 single frag grendade a piece. Especially considering their high effectiveness in an urban setting. Limiting troops to a single grenade is realism right out the window there.

Secondly, the throw itself is pathetic, a grenade isn't a bloody shot put. I've got a deactivated Australian WW2 Mills grenade which I have thrown before (beers were involved) and I could easily make 35-40m without breaking a sweat. I can see sense in adding an element of uncertainty into the accuracy of your in game throw but having your soldier only able to throw the thing like a limp wristed toff makes no sense.

I'd also say they're very under powered, to the extent that they may as well be flash bangs. I've had them land a few meter's from me and do little but disorient me. They feel like CSS grenades in that you need to be sitting on them to be killed.

In short grenades in INS don't feel like a viable weapon (same with the RPG7's).

I am with REZ on this one, the grenades in RO are more or less realistically powerful and effective. Just because a few players use them stupidly doesn't mean they should be turned into firecrackers or unrealistically limited. Personally I die often from grenades and so do those who face me, I also die often from a lot of things, rifles, smg's, mg's, but hey that's war and that's why I am playing this game.

Note: I have no problem with the concept of making switching to grenades take a little longer, I only have issue with weakening them unrealistically in either effect or quantity.
 

Phoenix-D

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 28, 2006
706
0
0

The gameplay effect is huge..more tactical - people can take time to form groups and attack without much fear of getting spammed to death. People use their guns to kill..people are more careful because it takes longer to respawn. INS mod devs have nades spot on.


Does the phrase "don't bunch up" mean anything to you? If you bunch up, you DESERVE to get grenaded. Or nailed by a tank shell. Or MGed. Or..etc. A properly spaced force in RO should be far enough apart that a single grenade won't kill more than 1-2 people.

The potential lethal radius on a Soviet F-1 grenade is larger than the range that you can throw the grenade. If one is tossed into a empty room, everyone in that room WILL be in a world of hurt.

Nerfing grenades just because you like taking your time is unrealistic and bad for gameplay besides.
 

elak

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 13, 2006
113
5
0
After playing INS mod for the last few days I've really noticed the difference coming back..man INS does nades 10x better than RO. They take time to take out, people don't get 2 every spawn (depends on class but maximum is 1). Added to that people don't respawn almost instantly like in RO - takes usually around 20 secs or more to respawn so theres fewer nades flying round. They are also not that powerful unless they land quite close and can't be thrown that far AND don't seem to be particularly accurate. RO devs..take a look at INS for how nades should be in RO.

The gameplay effect is huge..more tactical - people can take time to form groups and attack without much fear of getting spammed to death. People use their guns to kill..people are more careful because it takes longer to respawn. INS mod devs have nades spot on.


1. Grenades are powerful.

A friend of mine told me about their grenade practicing in the military, where they practiced with live grenades in a mock-up concrete house with steel-reinforced walls and a nice wooden coating over it all. Now this thing was built to survive years and years of practice, still after a day there was nothing left of the wooden parts and the steel layer was seriously damaged. And this is an anti-personell weapon. The damage done is fine.

2. There were lots and lots of grenades around.

I'll see if I can find that image of the german infantryman looking like a bloody christmas-tree with grenades hanging virtually everywhere. He seemed to be the designated grenade carrier whose sole purpose in clearing a building was to stop and toss a grenade into each room the rest of the squad was to enter. Now since the game is based on a bunch of individuals this can't really be done, so in order to maintain the ammound of grenades everyone gets 2.

3. Tossing a grenade 20m+ is not a problem for a full grown man.

Still, I can agree that the range should be determined by your stance. When lying down you will throw them a much shorter distance than when standing up and using your full body in the throw (what is it called when you sprint a short distance before throwing something? "Ta sats" in swedish.) Remember that distances seem much further in the game because of the FOV.

4. Accuracy

Now this is a gameplay issue. The problem is basically that we use a keyboard and a mouse to simulate a human body and it's functions. The inaccuracy with throwing stuff comes mainly from that it is nigh impossible to throw an object in the exact same manner two times after one another, but you can come pretty close with some practice. Now, with the keyboard+mouse setup, the only thing I do when throwing the grenade is to press a button. This pressing of a button simulates the whole throwing process. We could simulate the real inaccuracies with some random factor ingame, but this would piss everyone off since you would add something that does not give you the same feedback every time. Game controls need to work so that action A leads to event B EVERY time actions A is invoked, otherwise the user has no real control of his/her avatar. When I throw something IRL and I miss my target, I got a feeling about what I did wrong. I get correct feedback. Should we do the above ingame, this feedback would be lost, since I can't affect the way I toss the grenade that much because of the random factor. Loss of control.

What I can come to think of would be if the grenades behaved more like rigid bodies with moment of inertia. Neither the german or the russian grenade are perfectly symmetrical, so they might wobble a bit when thrown making it a little bit harder to predict where they will land, but you can still use the feedback to correct your throw if you fail the first time. Not perfectly realistic, I'll give you that, but better from a gameplay point of view.

5. Nadespamming

The random nadespamming is a pain but the question is what random nade-spamming really is. Personally I spam grenades "randomly" into rooms where I suspect enemies to be but where I am certain that no friendlies are. Or generally tossing a grenade into positions where I suspect enemy ambushes. On Lyes you can easily advance against the german positions by tossing grenades around corners before approaching them. Once I went all the way from spawn to the HQ because the germans I killed kept supplying me with new grenades. Unrealistic? Really not, this is how you clear trenches. You don't kill with your gun, the gun is there so that you, or your squadmates, can gun down any sorry bastard stupid enough to exposehimself. Neither to you expose yourself to enemy CC fire, you toss a grenade around the corner to force them to either stay or die. The same with clearing rooms. On larger maps this tactic is not really useful since you need to close with the enemy in order to reach them with the grenades.

The only nade-spamming that I find unrealistic is the two teams at once nade fest at the beginning of every round, but if we all adapt and stay out of harms way people will learn that it doesn't give them anything to waste their grenades the first thing that happens during a round.
 

melipone

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 22, 2006
1,672
259
0
/rant

The bottom line though is this is a GAME with realistic elements. The realistic parts are altered in many different ways throughout the game, so why be stubborn on this one issue? The weapons are very well balanced, not from a realism point of view but from a Tactical Gaming point of view - the higher the rate of fire the less accurate and the more recoil you get, with very minor deviations from that general rule they used. Semi autos shouldn't be so inaccurate at the distances they are, smg's shouldn't recoil so much and also aren't as accurate as they should be. The easier the gun, the fewer of them there are (or more), depending on the map NOT realism. Its a tactical GAME that uses some realistic elements to add to the gameplay. Its not a sim, so why do people have to talk about realism so much like RO is 100% realistic in the first place? And its also funny that people are happy for people to cook the nade like they do, throw them in the first few seconds of the soldiers life in the war zone, throw them as accurately as they do, yet still use realism as a reason to keep the nades as they are. Just think of the gameplay not the realism, because all people seem to do with "realism" is pick and choose the bits that appeal to them. If you use realism as an excuse, then be consistent and don't just focus on the bits that make the gameplay the way you want it and if you're doing that talk about why its better for gameplay, not just that its more realistic (in some areas that are appealing and not in others). What i'm trying to say is, it seems people often use the term realism as a reason to make the game the way they want it (gameplay-wise), but then if something is unrealistic but still good for their view on gameplay they don't seem to be bothered by it, but still only talk about realism rather than gameplay. This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, just a general comment that can be applied to other threads too.

/rant

Anyway to answer a couple of points, and I feel i've probably said them all already anyway but here goes:

I should play slower someone said? Well imo nades as they are encourage you to speed up your play, because of the feeling you could get naded at any time and encourages you to play less tactically for the same reasons. Don't bunch up? I don't..but with 2 nades per player, instant respawn thats a hell of a lot of nades flying around..you're bound to get unlucky no matter what you do. Nades spoil tactical play imo because of the randomness.

I would be happy with a compromise as Reddog said, just anything as long as it improves the gameplay (and keeps the game semi realistic). Making it take longer to select/unselect nades would improve the gameplay a bit I think and would be realistic.

Thanks for the input anyway everyone, ignore my little rant if it comes across like i'm *****ing :)
 
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melipone

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 22, 2006
1,672
259
0
4. Accuracy

Now this is a gameplay issue. The problem is basically that we use a keyboard and a mouse to simulate a human body and it's functions. The inaccuracy with throwing stuff comes mainly from that it is nigh impossible to throw an object in the exact same manner two times after one another, but you can come pretty close with some practice. Now, with the keyboard+mouse setup, the only thing I do when throwing the grenade is to press a button. This pressing of a button simulates the whole throwing process. We could simulate the real inaccuracies with some random factor ingame, but this would piss everyone off since you would add something that does not give you the same feedback every time. Game controls need to work so that action A leads to event B EVERY time actions A is invoked, otherwise the user has no real control of his/her avatar. When I throw something IRL and I miss my target, I got a feeling about what I did wrong. I get correct feedback. Should we do the above ingame, this feedback would be lost, since I can't affect the way I toss the grenade that much because of the random factor. Loss of control.

What I can come to think of would be if the grenades behaved more like rigid bodies with moment of inertia. Neither the german or the russian grenade are perfectly symmetrical, so they might wobble a bit when thrown making it a little bit harder to predict where they will land, but you can still use the feedback to correct your throw if you fail the first time. Not perfectly realistic, I'll give you that, but better from a gameplay point of view.

I was thinking of instead of having the hand completely still when you aim with it, it could move a bit, quite similar to how your gun starts to move when aiming a gun. When your gun starts to move you can compensate for the movements because its predictable - it starts moving one way and carries on that way for a second or so, plenty of time to compensate for the movement by pulling the mouse in the opposite direction. Would be a similar system for aiming grenades. With nades the hand would start swaying the moment you press the left mouse button. The more tired you are the more it moves, but if you stand still for a few seconds the aiming arm starts to get more steady as your guy aims, until its completely steady (with full staminer). Moving the arm suddenly to a different position would increase the sway again, slow movements would not. Running with a nade increases the sway from side to side and jumping add a sudden increase in sway. There would be no artificial accuracy reduction - you would always have control but it would be made a little more difficult than it currently is, or take a little time (with you stood in hopefully a safe position). Good players would still be able to throw accurately without waiting for the arm to steady if they wanted. I think the changes would encourage people to think about where they are aiming because they would often stop to get the aim steady. People could still just throw them randomly, but they would often not go where they expect if they don't spend some time on the throw, so the nade would often not land in a dangerous position for the enemy and could be dangerous for your own team. A well aimed nade would be a legitimate kill with this system because it would require a little skill and thought from the player, unless they spend time on the throw in which case they can throw with no or little sway (with full staminer there would be no sway at all if you stood still for a few seconds, but would be reduced a lot even if you were quite tired, just by standing still or crouching). This would simulate the soldier spending time on his aim and would be realistic IMO AND would be good for gameplay.

With German nades I suppose you would have to add a prime button for this to work, so you can start aiming and waiting for it to steady, then press the prime button and then throw or can he do it will one hand? I don't know how priming works with german nades..I know you prime with one hand with the russian ones ingame. Maybe as a balance for not being able to steady the german nades as much as the russian ones (because it starts cooking as soon as you get it out) you could increase the throw distance a bit.
 
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