Do you think the Demolition Class is Over Powered?

[Bill Nye The Science Spy]

Just asking what you guys think. I have seen some people say they were over powered and some people saying it wasn't as well as people saying its under powered.

They specialize in taking down Flesh Pounds as Flesh Pounds take a significantly more amount from explosives then normal and they normally have resistance to all other kinds of damage and they can easily take out groups of enemies but they have a limited amount of ammo,they can blow them self up easily if your not careful and they are by far the most expensive class and some other reasons about there "Pros and Cons"

 

[C_Gibby]

You mainly have to take into account how likely the demo is to kill himself. If he's in a close-knit, well-mixed, well-trained team, he can be considered very powerful, as can every other perk. If he isn't, he sucks, unless the player is very good.

 

[FSUBoo]

It's kind of funny that I post screen shots of a demo with upwards of 40 pipes in one area on the hardest difficulty and boom a "Is Demo OP" thread pops up. Like I've said millions of times before, it's not the perks that are OP, it's the players and how they use them.

 

[Bill Nye The Science Spy]

You mainly have to take into account how likely the demo is to kill himself. If he's in a close-knit, well-mixed, well-trained team, he can be considered very powerful, as can every other perk. If he isn't, he sucks, unless the player is very good.

I tend do agree with this perfectly..

Demo is one of my favorite classes along side with some other ones (support,commando,firebug) and i usually only play him when we are camping on a good map to camp on (like doom) i find them bad on other maps like mountain pass

I made this thread to see what other people in the killing floor community think

The demolition seems to be a popular perk (at least on Suicidal and Hell on Earth) especially on Doom where we had 2 demos using L.A.W.s pretty much lead the group which is the main reason why i crated this thread: http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=554

 

[sph34r]

Uh.

The ability to build a pipenest is a bit absurd. Even if you die, the pipes lend themselves to your teammates in the event that they're overrun. Like, you have a commando and medic left with 60 zeds on HoE. Fleshpounds and scrakes appear, but the ridiculous amounts of pipes you have (at least 30) kills them with ease. All of this while the demo is dead.

While the demo is alive, the M32 and M79 are extremely powerful for killing trash. Ammo is never an issue unless you spam, and assuming you're trying to play intelligently then this isn't a problem. Actually, if you're playing intelligently it's probable that your team is as well, meaning you always have upwards of $900 in your pocket and at least 1 spare M32 by wave 8.

But back to pipes... my god the pipes. You can lay them down in pairs before wave 10 starts near the common spawnpoints, and kill all fleshpounds before you ever even see them. And supposing you used last round's pipes, you'll now have killed 2 fleshpounds and still have another 8 pipes in your inventory.

 

[Entangler]

I think pipe spam is more a symptom of excessive cash flow than an issue with the Demolitions perk itself. The only change I'd particularly like to see for Demolitions is to have explosive projectiles' double-hit bug fixed.

 

[Bill Nye The Science Spy]

Uh.

The ability to build a pipenest is a bit absurd. Even if you die, the pipes lend themselves to your teammates in the event that they're overrun. Like, you have a commando and medic left with 60 zeds on HoE. Fleshpounds and scrakes appear, but the ridiculous amounts of pipes you have (at least 30) kills them with ease. All of this while the demo is dead.

While the demo is alive, the M32 and M79 are extremely powerful for killing trash. Ammo is never an issue unless you spam, and assuming you're trying to play intelligently then this isn't a problem. Actually, if you're playing intelligently it's probable that your team is as well, meaning you always have upwards of $900 in your pocket and at least 1 spare M32 by wave 8.

But back to pipes... my god the pipes. You can lay them down in pairs before wave 10 starts near the common spawnpoints, and kill all fleshpounds before you ever even see them. And supposing you used last round's pipes, you'll now have killed 2 fleshpounds and still have another 8 pipes in your inventory.

How do you think that they could nerf the demolitions class to be as balanced as some of the other classes?
Do you agree with what Entangler said?

 

[Elsea]

I think the demolitions perk is perfectly balanced. He has a heavy reliance on teammates due to weapons that require arming distance. He also creates smoke that can potentially create wipes due to an inability to see. Quite long reloading times and a relatively expensive full kit also lowers his ability to do damage.

However, that said, he is the best option against fleshpounds. He can deal a tremendous amount of AOE damage and will likely have the highest kill count if in a camp setting with a long enough corridor such as biotics lab. Pipe bombs make tremendously good points of retreat in case something goes wrong, which will happen sometimes even in the best of teams.

All in all, I think he's perfectly fine for the regular player. He is tremendously powerful in the hands of a veteran, but which class isn't? At a high skill level, a demolitions player doesn't even need outside sources of income even at HoE difficulty. This may be alarming, but considering you can pretty much kit out every single class in full gear by wave 3 or 4 which includes armor, full ammo, and grenades, that's nothing to be upset about. He's perfectly balanced with the ability for huge spike damage, an inability to solo, and possible disruption with smoke.

 

[FSUBoo]

Uh.

The ability to build a pipenest is a bit absurd. Even if you die, the pipes lend themselves to your teammates in the event that they're overrun. Like, you have a commando and medic left with 60 zeds on HoE. Fleshpounds and scrakes appear, but the ridiculous amounts of pipes you have (at least 30) kills them with ease. All of this while the demo is dead.

While the demo is alive, the M32 and M79 are extremely powerful for killing trash. Ammo is never an issue unless you spam, and assuming you're trying to play intelligently then this isn't a problem. Actually, if you're playing intelligently it's probable that your team is as well, meaning you always have upwards of $900 in your pocket and at least 1 spare M32 by wave 8.

But back to pipes... my god the pipes. You can lay them down in pairs before wave 10 starts near the common spawnpoints, and kill all fleshpounds before you ever even see them. And supposing you used last round's pipes, you'll now have killed 2 fleshpounds and still have another 8 pipes in your inventory.

Don't forget how a demo can carry a LAR and be pretty effective with it instead of m79. If you have a good team that's controlling crowds, grab a LAR and help with sirens/husks

 

[sph34r]

I think pipe spam is more a symptom of excessive cash flow than an issue with the Demolitions perk itself. The only change I'd particularly like to see for Demolitions is to have explosive projectiles' double-hit bug fixed.

Somewhat, but it depends on what your views of spawning with 2 free pipes are. Supposing you spawn wave 1 as a sharpshooter, sell the crossbow, suicide, sell the other crossbow, then go demolitions and suicide every wave after that until wave 8 for pipes, that's 12 free pipes. Out of the 30-40ish pipes that I was referring to in the pipenests, 12 is quite a big chunk. And yeah that double-hit thing is pretty dumb isn't it.

How do you think that they could nerf the demolitions class to be as balanced as some of the other classes?
Do you agree with what Entangler said?

If I personally had to balance demolitions, I'd make it so a level 6 demo would spawn with only 1 pipe instead of 2, and fix the double-hit bug. But to be fair I'd also give a discount on grenades.

I think the demolitions perk is perfectly balanced. He has a heavy reliance on teammates due to weapons that require arming distance. He also creates smoke that can potentially create wipes due to an inability to see ... All in all, I think he's perfectly fine for the regular player. He is tremendously powerful in the hands of a veteran, but which class isn't?

I'd just like to say that to counteract the arming distance, you can back away and shoot at the ceiling. This usually kills trash anyway, but if it doesn't, it'll stun it (which is basically just as good if there's a support spec around). Smoke is also not an issue, especially if you happen to be shooting walls and corners. As for the last thing - yeah. Personally I don't care too much to balance the current HoE because as you stated it would be unfair to players that find it challenging. Creating a new difficulty mode seems like the easiest solution but for that to happen you'd need the stars to align on a blue moon while reciting ancient poetry.

 

[poosh]

Demo with M32 is weak against Scrakes (if not using pipes), and smoke clouds make Sharpshooter's SC-killing job harder too (can also unstun SC, if not using carefully). Slow reload require team protection.
Demo with LAW is weak against everything, that comes too close. If carrying pipes, LAW-demo can't even afford to hold machete.
So demo perk is very usefull, when you can rely on your teammates, and awful, if your team sucks ***. This perk has benefits, but also weaknesses - so I think it's balanced.

The only thing I don't like is spawn inventory. Level 6 demo spawns with M79 and 2 pipes:

 

[poosh]

I think pipe spam is more a symptom of excessive cash flow than an issue with the Demolitions perk itself. The only change I'd particularly like to see for Demolitions is to have explosive projectiles' double-hit bug fixed.

Without this "bug" Level 6 Demo will need to hit 5 LAW rockets to a single Scrake in 6p HoE game. Doesn't this sound ridiculous? Only damage thing I could agree to nerf is M79/M32's x1.25 damage multiplier on Fleshpounds - too easy imo.

 

[Entangler]

Well now that you mention it, I've wanted the Pipe Bomb weapon to come with only one pipe bomb for a while anyway, for a variety of reasons. Still, while it doesn't help, it isn't the root cause. Spawn-selling and the Crossbow's enormous sell price are obviously the big contributors, but I also feel - like many did leading up to the beta, though sadly the idea was vetoed - that standard weapon discounts and the sell value multiplier should both be lowered as well. It really should be that you are better off spawning with a weapon you actually mean to use rather than switching perks after wave one, and having to earn those tier three weapons wouldn't hurt either.

(However I also feel that players should drop all saleable weapons when they die regardless of what they're holding, so that those hard-earned tier three weapons don't subsequently disappear in a puff of smoke if you die with your knife out; but would that defeat the purpose?)

Without this "bug" Level 6 Demo will need to hit 5 LAW rockets to a single Scrake in 6p HoE game. Doesn't this sound ridiculous? Only damage thing I could agree to nerf is M79/M32's x1.25 damage multiplier on Fleshpounds - too easy imo.

It most definitely is a bug - the direct impact damage is not supposed to apply to a target that is also caught in the blast, but if the projectile impacts a specimen's attached ExtendedZCollision instead of the specimen itself then the "is blast victim == LastTouched actor" check fails. And the fact that a perk that is meant to be weak against Scrakes anyway would spend a lot of time and ammo to solo them in a 6p HoE game does nothing to dissuade me, sorry.

 

[Bill Nye The Science Spy]

The results of the poll are interesting..All the comments say that they are either balanced,Slightly Over Powered,Over Powered or WAY overpowered but 2 people actually said underpowered

 

[Rhenna]

As long as there is at least one sub-

 

[sph34r]

Can someone make a compelling case for why demolitions is balanced? The way I see it, each one of the class' weaknesses can easily be compensated for with a bit of smart play.

Smoke is only an issue to begin with if you're camping some corridor. In that case, even on something as thin as biolab's spawn hall you can shoot the ceiling or wall or floor behind the zeds and not cause any problems for your team.

If ammo is a problem, you're spamming. One M79 round costs $7, so you shouldn't shoot at anything other than 3+ trash specimens if you want to make a lot of cash for yourself. There are usually 3 or more trash zeds around, but not as often as just 1 or 2 to make you run out of ammo.

If money is a problem, then ammo likely is too. See the previous paragraph. But suppose you think money is a problem because you can't buy 8 pipes by wave 7 - consider how much easier and safer it is to kill a fleshpound with grenades and M32 round instead. The latter costs much less than pipes.

If you keep killing yourself from splash, you're being blocked by teammates who don't speak whatever language you're using to tell them to stop doing it. That isn't a problem with the class, that's a problem with the players. It is by no means a legitimate reason as to why demolitions is balanced. If you're going to assume that the playstyle of your teammates is going to act as the "balancing" force, then you may as well call sharpshooter underpowered as teammates can only potentially un-stun scrakes with grenades and firebugs can block your line of sight with fire.

 

[Undedd Jester]

The Demo, like the Commando, is a shining example of a well balanced class. Plenty of power, tempered with plenty of weaknesses. I'm sure you could work them out respectively if you thought about it