Definitive solution for zoom?

[The Univermag's ghost]

So.. my little idea is simple: tweaking the weapon handling to not penalize people playing without zoom. Then everyone plays the way he wants.

Zoom becomes a great advantage because the weapon handling is too much precise (especially on long distances or when out of breath).
If weapon handling would be harder, using zoom would not be too much of a big advantage with players not using it.

A less precise weapon handling would also prevent pixel hunting and make the game some more realistic (downhere it is some real life experience you may read)

If you really want to get sure that you will hit your target with the first shot, you need some time to find the right moment to use the trigger.
You could be lucky, aim and shot in one second (distance 200m) and you hit. But in general you don't can do it. Lucky i was never in a real combat just some military training.
In a combat training it is a little bit different, you will shot much more and hit less. You have to run some meters go into cover, shoot, change your position and shot again. You have not much time to aim everything need to be done fast, the enemy is coming closer and closer. In a combat you don't have time to control your breath, you just shot shot and shot (when you are a riflemen). When you are a sniper you need to be sure that you will hit with the first shot. A good sniper have to change his position a lot of times. In general he fight his own fight. He will never rush forward with the attacking infantry. He will search for a good place and look out for enemy watchmen in trenches. Officers and of course other sniper.

Weapon handling in video games is very easy. It is not very difficult in real life, too. But in video games you can simulate everything. In reality we wouldn't hit that much.

However for harder weapon handling i don't mean crazy recoil/sway, but something pretty well done and tested (like this, as example)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLjOLQdOF3Q

I m sorry i have expressed my idea very shortly and with a not so good english

 

[Cat_in_da_Hat]

With that Sight Alignment Mechanic does the player have control over the alignment movement or is that automated?

I certainly like where that idea is going. Adds more realism to lifting up and aiming the weapon.

 

[Proud_God]

So.. my little idea is simple: tweaking the weapon handling to not penalize people playing without zoom. Then everyone plays the way he wants.

Zoom becomes a great advantage because the weapon handling is too much precise (especially on long distances or when out of breath).
If weapon handling would be harder, using zoom would not be too much of a big advantage with players not using it.

A less precise weapon handling would also prevent pixel hunting and make the game some more realistic (downhere it is some real life experience you may read)



However for harder weapon handling i don't mean crazy recoil/sway, but something pretty well done and tested (like this, as example)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLjOLQdOF3Q

I m sorry i have expressed my idea very shortly and with a not so good english

What exactly do you mean? That zooming would make aiming harder through extra sight misalignments? Or that aiming would be harder all the time through sight misalignments?

 

[Frostedfire]

What exactly do you mean? That zooming would make aiming harder through extra sight misalignments? Or that aiming would be harder all the time through sight misalignments?

the latter.

 

[c200k]

In my opinion there is one problem. I don't think that "Zoom becomes a great advantage".

Aiming with zoom or no zoom is more like reading an eBook in Arial 6 or Arial 12. It's still the same eBook, but my eyes would prefer the larger font...

I respect people who don't like it, and that's why it should stay a server-side option.

 

[The Univermag's ghost]

What exactly do you mean? That zooming would make aiming harder through extra sight misalignments? Or that aiming would be harder all the time through sight misalignments?

Yes, all time enough hard to shoot so there is no consistent disadvantage for people who don't want to use zoom.
Anyway, in the video, the sight misalignment is very very strong - even unrealistic, it may need tweaking.

And, apart from sway/sight misalignment, imho there should be other things influencing aiming, like a IRL - style irong sight alignment, not stopping instantaneously when the "run" button is not anymore pressed and so on...

 

[Proud_God]

I like the concept of sight misalignments, but zooming would still make aiming easier due to the magnification factor, right?

 

[Mr Headshot95]

Considering this is zoom-focused thread, might as well post.

I dislike the zoom for one reason and one reason only. It tosses advantage wholly to the defender. As if they don't have an advantage already by simply being stationary and probably concealed, with zoom defenders can see an attacker's undone lapel on his shirt as he runs across the dirt and pull off shots that the attacker couldn't possibly hope to make from the same distance. Because the attacker is (or should be) moving most of the time and therefore cannot zoom.

This unequal playing field makes for aggravating attacks because defenders can simply shoot at blurs of movement in the distance that they wouldn't notice without zoom. Perhaps a reason why so many people stack defending teams, especially on larger maps like Bridges . And when attackers get bogged down like this, the game comes to a standstill of riflemen playing a deadly game of binocular vision peekaboo with each other instead of an attack and counterattack flow.

For instance, I recently played GumrakStation. By sitting in prime location I was able to see much of the left flank. But by zooming, I could see all the way back to the attacking spawn with good clarity and shift zoom made it even clearer. I was pulling ~200m shots on Germans running to their flank with no hurry at all, and I highly doubt that I could have been as accurate without zoom. They could not leave their spawn from that side, and could not reasonably fight back with as much accuracy unless they were to camp on top of the hill and zoom to find me, which would defeat the whole purpose of attacking (and makes for un-fun gameplay).

Leave zoom to the scopes on sniper's rifles, they are supposed to have that advantage. Everyone else can tough it out.

But, that is my opinion. Just like assholes, everybody has one.

EDIT: As for making aiming harder with aligning sights, I dislike the idea. At least as it is now it looks like it takes far too long to let the sights align and the bobble is far too much.

 

[Cwivey]

Zoom brings about more careful gameplay. If you sprint across from cover like a wally (something I do lots in IOM and did in RO:OST, albeit with more ice-skating) there should be a good element of RISK to doing so.

Most people who say "Defenders only get an advantage" don't seem to see how the Attackers can use it to their advantage as well.. If you are attacking, you can, y'know, stop running, take a zoomed peek at the landscape and then plan further movements based on what or who you see. Use smoke to block sight lines. Bring in a mother lovin' tank and hide behind it as it rolls onwards. Stop trying to remove something just because you get picked off by some chap 150 metres away who probs isn't in the objective zone "omg omg what a camper". Speaking of which, don't try to use the ol' camper argument against zoom, camping always happens in pub games (In-fact, zoom makes it more risky as it works both ways ).


That's how I feel about it, in my sort of rambling shamble of a Friday night post.



Also, if you find a spot where you can see into the enemy spawn as Mr Headshot95 here has said (with or without zoom), post something about it in the Bug report forum or the relevant community map thread in the level design forum.

Oh and you can suppress an enemy to stop them using Zoom btw.

 

[Mr Headshot95]

Perhaps I should clarify, I couldn't actually see the guys spawning I could simply see them as soon as they left spawn.

Obviously that doesn't hold true to every map though.

 

[The Univermag's ghost]

I like the concept of sight misalignments, but zooming would still make aiming easier due to the magnification factor, right?

No.

 

[Proud_God]

No.

You'll have to explain that one to me...

 

[The Univermag's ghost]

You'll have to explain that one to me...

ok

 

[Murder Inc]

I like the idea alot, its just like the original BIA games, where it was more a battle of suppressing fire due to the lack of precise iron sight alignment, followed by a flanking maneuver to kill the enemy, rather than simply using rock solid iron sights to pick off the enemy one by one as is the case in 90% of FPSs out there.....


the iron sights, or front sight post in particular, should sway automatically in tiny fast patterns, to simulate the heavy breathing, trembling of the arms to to the weapon's weight and simply breathing in general, aswell as the heart beating quickly, especially if under fire, a good way to visualize this system, is to hold your arm out as far out in front of you as you comfortably can, then hold your thumb up, and try to align the very tip of it to a tiny selected location of a wall (nailhole, tiny smudge ect), now imagine the thumb is the sights on a rifle, and the tiny spot on the wall is your target...notice the small nervous system movements your thumb is making, no matter how hard to try to stop it, the thumb still moves, abeit very small, but still noticable, especially when trying to line up a tiny target....(just an example) anyways, back on topic..


you can, as IRL, somewhat predict the automatic sway pattern of the front sight post, you put the sights about on a target and wait for the front sight to sway directly over (or as close as you can time it) the target, and when you feel the sight is directly on the enemy, you take the shot, then once you fire, (say you miss) you realign, then you wait a second or two for the sight to wobble or switch over the approximate point of impact, then take another shot.....now the sights accuracy error (sway) will reduce in severety overtime, as you calm down if you were running ect, and become more stable and the sway pattern on the front sight will become very small, not dead still like a robot, but still enough so as you can fire on a distant target with not much sway issues, this factor is also dependant on your current stance...again, all like real life shooting. Resting the weapon on a piece of cover ect. will of course deminish the sway to almost nothing, standing will take the longest for the sway to deminsih, crouch takes the seconds longest, and prone will calm the twiching very quickly





regarding zoom....why not just take what the current default ironsight zoom distance is, and cut it by 50%, so that it isnt gone, but it isnt a pixel hunt either, that should satisfy both parties

 

[The Univermag's ghost]

1
I like the idea alot, its just like the original BIA games, where it was more a battle of suppressing fire due to the lack of precise iron sight alignment, followed by a flanking maneuver to kill the enemy, rather than simply using rock solid iron sights to pick off the enemies one by one.



2
regarding zoom....why not just take what the current default ironsight zoom di stanche is, and cut it by 50%, so that it isnt gone, but it isnt a pixel hunt either, that should satisfy both parties

1
I think you red in my mind



2
Ehehehe it's not so simple to satisfy both these hard-opposing factions: pixel hunters want no zoom at all without any compromise, while cyborg-eyed people want to mantain zoom to have real life proportions and distance.
Imho The only way to satisfy them both is to have a weapon system that makes no advantage/disadvantage between them when playing together.

I think the "suppression battle" system is something that fits very good to solve this problem, and, apart from this, IMHO it has also a lot of other advantages, as example:

- it'd make the game more newbie-friendly, while in vanilla ro2 a newbie gets shot continuously and wonders from where they were shot, with "suppression battle" mechanics he can get into cover and have the possibility to see where the enemy was because of his rifle' s muzzle flash.

-a soldier's life duration into the battlefield may increase, in this way people may stop playing like "thrown into battle-got shot-respawned" but would have more battle awareness and the nice sensation of advancing in the battlefield.

-being something closer to reality, it would favor a number of realistic tactics and teamwork. As example MGs would become much more important, due to their suppression power, and renouncing at one to hipfire it would be a bit like renouncing to the field the machinegunner was covering.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

BIA sight alignment was twitchy and random and really annoying. It did not seem like natural movement.

You are right, you will never satisfy all players who want all, some or no zoom.

I do have to comment as far as new players getting shot. Do you realize how many times people get shot by other players that aren't in their line of sight? Of course they wouldn't see them to begin with; I personally make it a point to move into positions where the enemy is unlikely to see me, but I can see them and safely shoot them. Its not like its the wild west where you square off facing each other at 20 paces

 

[The Univermag's ghost]

BIA sight alignment was twitchy and random and really annoying. It did not seem like natural movement.

.Do you realize how many times people get shot by other players that aren't in their line of sight? Of course they wouldn't see them to begin with; I personally make it a point to move into positions where the enemy is unlikely to see me, but I can see them and safely shoot them. Its not like its the wild west where you square off facing each other at 20 paces

Well i was talking about the game mechanic not about how it was implemented, especially since i never player bia. I m pretty dure that if it ll be used in ro2 or iom it' ll surely be way better due to the fact it is a relatively new game compared with bia


Yes, of course i realize it. However with a different weapon system like the one we re talking about it ll still exist, but poor people getting shot would have the possibility to bring their *** under cover and realize when they are exposed to enemy fire.
Imho, getting shot point blank is the thing that makes more difficult for the newbie to understood when and where he is at risk and when and where he is not.

Knowing from where he is getting shot is another matter, but a minor one, compared to the other i talked about in this post.
Do you know how easy is to see a muzzle flash even at distance without zoom?

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

Yes, of course i realize it. However with a different weapon system like the one we re talking about it ll still exist, but poor people getting shot would have the possibility to bring their *** under cover and realize when they are exposed to enemy fire.
Imho, getting shot point blank is the thing that makes more difficult for the newbie to understood when and where he is at risk and when and where he is not.

Knowing from where he is getting shot is another matter, but a minor one, compared to the other i talked about in this post.
Do you know how easy is to see a muzzle flash even at distance without zoom?

Yes to the muzzle flash, not difficult if you are looking in the right direction.

As far as players getting shot and not being in/under cover, that has more to do with the player (exception grass disappearing at a distance and a new player not knowing that). By that I mean too many players are in a rush to 'get into the firefight' and run in the open, don't use cover, don't go prone or crouch etc. Even if they do use some cover, many players are so focused on what is in front of them they are mostly oblivious to their flanks. This is where the zoomed out wider FOV helps a bit... more situational awareness. But back on point, that is where players just have to learn and gain experience and play as if their @ss really is on the line. Zoom enabled or no zoom, if you are moving out in the open and being careless, you deserve to get shot at and killed, even from a distance.

Not 100% sure what you mean about being shot point blank and knowing where from, unless you mean as if shot from behind, then up to my point above.

 

[The Univermag's ghost]

Not 100% sure what you mean about being shot point blank and knowing where from, unless you mean as if shot from behind, then up to my point above.

About being shot point blank i mean when someome distant running from cover to cover gets shot with the first shot.
If at least one shot passes near him suppressing him it' s not anymore being shot point blank.


From a point of view it's a player problem of simple newbieness. But imho newbieness shouldn' t make the player run in open field, but it should make the newbie hide in cover even too much and when not necessary (like IRL i think). But.. how to male this happen?

1st with suppression oriented weapon mechanics, in two words, hit less, shot more.

2nd with longer respawn times, cinematic deaths or whatever makes the player feel his lire is precious.

3rd maybe with a little "take cover!" writing on the bottom of the screen that activates when suppressed.

 

[The Univermag's ghost]

I like the concept of sight misalignments, but zooming would still make aiming easier due to the magnification factor, right?

No, increasing zoom you may see everything bigger, and you would aswell perceive more misalignment/sway.