Crewed tanks should have a HUGE advantage

[GonzoX]

I have to say I like things the way they are. If you don't find you have a big advantage in a full tank you are not using team work well enough. Not to mention 90% of the random people that will jump in a tank with me don't have voice comms and will blindly charge towards enemy positions till we're dead. Nerfing solo tanks would be enough to make me, and I bet other people quit this game.

LOL, This is exactly what I have been preaching about in this and many other similar threads. Unfortunately us lone tankers are the silent majority (except me and you that is).

If the TT folks get what they want then what you described is exactly what will happen I'm afraid. But personally I think the developers are smart enough to do the right thing and not alianate (or worse, disect ) one group of players from the other.

From what I understand, the TT folks (the minority) want to force all the single tank drivers (the majory) to pair up inside tanks so that they (The TT Folks) aren't left at spawn with no tanks available for their crew.

Here is how some of these folks see things:

If we (Single Tankers) are arrogant enough to take a tank for our selfish selves, we should be penalized in such a way that being a lone tanker will no longer be any more fun and will no longer be an effective tactic in wining a round of capture or defend online.

I guess their thinking is that this will somehow either convice single tankers to either play "their" way or to regulate ourselves as infantry supporting "their" tanks if we do not want to play their way.

They percieve all single tankers as being that one selfish 10 year old that yells at people to get out of "his" tank. And they tend to stereotype us all into that one rather negative catagory of player. I constantly find myself being defensive for something I do not even do online.

They believe that three individuals teamworking together in one tank is more effective and more fun that three single tank drivers teamworking together in seperate tanks.

Although they make some valid points, IMO the reality is that they should not fix something that isn't really broke. They want to force compliance to their prefered way of playing on everyone else and this will IMHO only lead to empty servers and the game going downhill from there.

I have offered my own idea for a semi-solution to their percieved problem but it was not well recieved here.

If anybody here has a better solution, Im all ears.

 

[melipone]

TBH I don't think you should be forced to play as either 2-3 in a tank or 1 person, but from a realism point of view it is kind of daft that you can go off on your own and switch positions instantly. I doubt most tanks went out with just 1 guy in them and they certainly didn't change positions so fast. So I think solo tankers will be penalised in the future, but atm I do think that making use of all the tanks in a map by spreading the people amoung them is far more effective than spreading the same peeps over fewer tanks.

 

[GonzoX]

Well gameplay is still an issue that has to be considered.

I'm all for realism but if you make it as realistic as can be, each game session would last about two minutes.

At some point in time you have to step back and look at the brauder gameplay picture.

When RO came out with Tanks everybody was extatic about it and only a small minority complained that it was too unrealistic.

Would you rather we go back to infantry only gameplay for the sake of realism?

I sure as heck don't. In fact, I play tank maps 90% of the time. I am 200% better at this game in a tank than I ever was as a grunt and vehicles give this game a whole new dimension.

I am willing to bet that the developers have already tested a seat wait time in beta and found that it does not work for gameplay reason and took it out. Any developers or beta testers want to chime in here on this?

Why doesn't somebody put up a web poll to guage how the community feels about seat switch time etc as compared to just leaving it like it is now?

I would be interested in seeing the results outside of just this thread.

 

[hos]

I think another issue is when servers aren't full. I would hate to see a 6tank vs 6tank map only have two tanks being used per side because you are forced to team up. A 2v2 is boring compared to 6v6.

I wouldn't mind teaming up as much if the VOIP worked better. Many people have the openAL32.dll problem. Your average pubber doesn't read this forum and won't know how to fix it. Even if they don't have a mic, it would be a huge help if they could just listen, but they can't.

Also, people often try to say that for the sake of realism it should be this way or that way. Well they are only looking at what they want to look at to get their way, while ignoring other facts. They simply cite realism to move the gameplay to the way they want it. Fact is this is a video game, it will never be reality. Concessions HAVE to be made for a good gameplay experience. War is not fair, but the game should be.

 

[Tsoman]

Feel free to operate a tank by yourself, all I'm saying is that it shouldn't be so easy to switch from the drivers seat to the gunners seat.

I always thought of it as just changing perspectives

 

[Brad]

I'm thinking that there should not be so many tanks available for lone tanking in the first place. I'm sure Gonzo is going to hate this idea, but I AM one for realism.

Single-crewed tanks are quite effective, and I don't think nerfing them is a good idea, I think tanks should be made less available so that one HAS to get in with a crewmate. As I have suggested before, a dynamic number of tanks (based on the number of tank class players in the game) at probably a 1 tank to 2 crewman ratio, would be ideal. As more tankers joined, more tanks could spawn.

Now Gonzo, you would argue that people LIKE to play as a lone tanker, that they would prefer it, but I would argue that it detracts from the realism. That's my biggest reason right there. I would like the feeling of having to work with crew members while trying to tank; it's rewarding and realistic.

There IS a difference between teamwork with crewmates and teamwork with several other single-manned tanks.

I know you will argue that teammates in a tank with you are sometimes anything but helpful, but that's something that will change over time, just as it did with BF2 and attack choppers (for an example). As it is, right now, there is almost NO incentive for people to team tank, especially on maps like Arad or Ogledow. On KonigsPlatz, however, there is a very limited number of tanks (only a tiger on the German side) and people are FORCED to work together in fully-crewed tanks. I've had some of the best experiences working with a crew like that.

This game prides itself on realism, and I think that lone tanking should be discouraged in some way (like the limited tank availability idea I had) so people have to learn to run tanks with other crewmembers. That would really add to the atmosphere.

 

[hos]

I'm thinking that there should not be so many tanks available for lone tanking in the first place. I'm sure Gonzo is going to hate this idea, but I AM one for realism.

Single-crewed tanks are quite effective, and I don't think nerfing them is a good idea, I think tanks should be made less available so that one HAS to get in with a crewmate. As I have suggested before, a dynamic number of tanks (based on the number of tank class players in the game) at probably a 1 tank to 2 crewman ratio, would be ideal. As more tankers joined, more tanks could spawn.

And what happens when one side is full of tankers and the other isn't? 6 tanks on 1? I don't think so...

Now Gonzo, you would argue that people LIKE to play as a lone tanker, that they would prefer it, but I would argue that it detracts from the realism. That's my biggest reason right there. I would like the feeling of having to work with crew members while trying to tank; it's rewarding and realistic.

There IS a difference between teamwork with crewmates and teamwork with several other single-manned tanks.

I know you will argue that teammates in a tank with you are sometimes anything but helpful, but that's something that will change over time, just as it did with BF2 and attack choppers (for an example). As it is, right now, there is almost NO incentive for people to team tank, especially on maps like Arad or Ogledow. On KonigsPlatz, however, there is a very limited number of tanks (only a tiger on the German side) and people are FORCED to work together in fully-crewed tanks. I've had some of the best experiences working with a crew like that.

This game prides itself on realism, and I think that lone tanking should be discouraged in some way (like the limited tank availability idea I had) so people have to learn to run tanks with other crewmembers. That would really add to the atmosphere.

More selective citations of realism. Why aren't you asking for the loader, gunner, and commander spots to be seperated? You do know that the commander we have is 3 people, don't you? And I don't believe for a second crews will get any better over time. For every one that learns to play several will buy the game and the ratio will be the same.

Honestly I think the people complaining single tanks should be nerfed are the ones that team yet still suck (I know, harsh but probably true). Playing arad last night it is amazing how many tank crews were, frankly, quite terrible. People with the same clan tags and everything. Not using cover, not angling, and just pushing forward into stupid situations when they shouldn't. I wonder how many of the guys who are complaining single should be nerfed don't even realize they are getting killed by better tank teams as well. You can't tell from the scoreboard when you die if you got killed by a single or team. It's the old "If I got killed it must be the game, it couldn't be me." And frankly the compainers are the very vocal minority. Go into any pub and almost all are perfectly happy to go it alone.

 

[Saturnalia]

More selective citations of realism. Why aren't you asking for the loader, gunner, and commander spots to be seperated? You do know that the commander we have is 3 people, don't you? And I don't believe for a second crews will get any better over time. For every one that learns to play several will buy the game and the ratio will be the same.

That is why I would favor a reward system for tanks with 2+ crew- adding extra situational awareness to reflect better crew communication and more eyeballs. Basically giving the tankers an AI commander (either a real bot or just something that can help spot targets) would work quite well. As mentioned upthread (by myself) you can limit this to tanks in which you had 3+ man turrets, as one of the disadvantages of the T-34-41,42,43 was the limited situational awareness caused by the small turret and lack of crew there.

 

[GonzoX]

I'm thinking that there should not be so many tanks available for lone tanking in the first place. I'm sure Gonzo is going to hate this idea, but I AM one for realism.

Single-crewed tanks are quite effective, and I don't think nerfing them is a good idea, I think tanks should be made less available so that one HAS to get in with a crewmate. As I have suggested before, a dynamic number of tanks (based on the number of tank class players in the game) at probably a 1 tank to 2 crewman ratio, would be ideal. As more tankers joined, more tanks could spawn.

Now Gonzo, you would argue that people LIKE to play as a lone tanker, that they would prefer it, but I would argue that it detracts from the realism. That's my biggest reason right there. I would like the feeling of having to work with crew members while trying to tank; it's rewarding and realistic.

There IS a difference between teamwork with crewmates and teamwork with several other single-manned tanks.

I know you will argue that teammates in a tank with you are sometimes anything but helpful, but that's something that will change over time, just as it did with BF2 and attack choppers (for an example). As it is, right now, there is almost NO incentive for people to team tank, especially on maps like Arad or Ogledow. On KonigsPlatz, however, there is a very limited number of tanks (only a tiger on the German side) and people are FORCED to work together in fully-crewed tanks. I've had some of the best experiences working with a crew like that.

This game prides itself on realism, and I think that lone tanking should be discouraged in some way (like the limited tank availability idea I had) so people have to learn to run tanks with other crewmembers. That would really add to the atmosphere.

Well I tend to agree with hos myself.

What you are basically saying is that you want to have the gameplay changed for your particular (your prefered) style of play at the expense of the majority of players out there who prefer single tank play with multiple crew play as an option. And you are saying that we should all do this in the name of realism and at the expense of most other players. Is this right?

The game currently caters to both styles of play. Why do you want to leave the majority out in the cold just so you can have one or two extra tanks rusting away at spawn for you? That makes no sense what-so-ever.

As hos has already stated, you are being selective with your realism. I will say it again, If this game is changed to the way that the TT guys want it, you will all be playing against bots and the popularity that this game currently shares will plument. That is my prediction IF the change is made.

Luckily though, I feel that the developers are smarter than that.

 

[Brad]

This isn't selective realism. This is pushing for a more realistic feel. Yes, tanks can be crewed alone. Yes, they can be effective. But this eliminates the need to have a crew at all, instead of a bunch of lone tankers. While it is nigh-impossible to have complete realism (having 5-man crews, like you mentioned) forcing more players to team up with 2 or 3 per tank adds the teamplay aspect of working with crewmates, as well as other tanks.

You both kept saying I was being selective with my realism. Realism isn't all-or-nothing, and it's absurd to argue that since we don't have positions for all 5 crewman we should encourage easy operation of tanks with only 1 crewmate inside. Where's the logic there? By reducing the number of tanks to match the number of tankers in-game we can encourage fully or near-fully crewed tanks, and increase the realism that way so people have every chance to experience and learn how to operate tanks with a crew.

And I don't believe for a second crews will get any better over time. For every one that learns to play several will buy the game and the ratio will be the same.

That's absurd. So people are unable to improve their skills over time? Don't be silly. As for your second statement, that's pure guesswork, and faulty logic to boot. So as time progresses, and more people become proficient, the number of people actually BUYING the game will increase exponentially to outnumber the skilled players? Doesn't make sense.

Honestly I think the people complaining single tanks should be nerfed are the ones that team yet still suck (I know, harsh but probably true).

Gosh, yes, it's probably true. It's not just you trying to make your point and make team tankers appear as though they are incompetent, like they don't belong in the elite club of lone tankers.

Go into any pub and almost all are perfectly happy to go it alone.

I'm sure lots would be. But what would happen if they were put in the situation where most of the time they would be paired up with another crewmate? Suddenly hate the game? I doubt it.

What you are basically saying is that you want to have the gameplay changed for your particular (your prefered) style of play at the expense of the majority of players out there who prefer single tank play with multiple crew play as an option.

This is the meat of the argument, I think. Gonzo argues that the current system, that DOESN'T force either style of play, is the way to go. My belief is that in order to properly recreate the experience of tank combat, players should be playing with at least one other person in their tank.

The problem is that as it is, allowing for easy lone tanking, four single-manned tanks are more effective than two partially-manned (one driver, one commander) tanks. So it is FAR more tactically effective to have as many tanks on the field at once, even if most are only loners.

Instead of completely nerfing lone-tanking (which I do not suggest, except for the time-delay between switching seats maybe) a system should be put in place that encourages team tanking like I have suggested before, the dynamic tank availability.

Gonzo, you predict that as soon as a change like this is made, the majority of players will stop playing RO altogether. That's a huge, and biased assumption on your part. You have no real evidence or reason (apart from your own personal beliefs) to support this claim in an attempt to scare people away from this idea.

 

[GonzoX]

Well here is the thing Brad,

I don't have to have any "evidence" because I am posting my opinions. That is what "IMO" and "IMHO" means. Same as what you are doing.

Unfortunately the "evidence" you seek will become painfully apparent if the game is changed your way.

This is not a court of law and I don't have to prove anything to you or anyone else. So take a deep breath and remember where you are for a moment.

Now me and a few others have given numerous examples and reasons as to why the game would go downhill if the TT folks get the changes they want. You can ignore or acknoledge them. It doesn't mean thing in the end as this is not voting booth for the developers to take a head count. At least not yet.

Everybody is entitled to their opinions and I respect that but what REALLY bothers me about threads such as this is the general dissrespect towards and stereotyping of Lone Tankers that I am seeing. This tends to bring out the Bias of the TT crowd with a neon sign.

Most lone tankers are good people and I enjoy playing with them online very much. I would hate to see that go away. And I see no problem with the way the game is now. It simply works.

Just because you and your dog Skip want to have five empty tanks rusting away at spawn for your choosing when you respawn, does not mean it will be so. For somebody who wants more "realism", how realistic would that be?

This thread reminds me of an old saying:

"Be carefull what you wish for, you just may get it"

 

[Brad]

Unfortunately the "evidence" you seek will become painfully apparent if the game is changed your way.

Yes, but to see a mass exodus of people leaving the game due solely to the fact that they are suddenly forcefully encouraged to crew up in a tank is a bit of a stretch. Is it possible? Nothing's IMpossible, but I think the chances are a lot more in the favor of people learning to deal with the change in gameplay. Especially when looking at how many people responded to this thread supporting measures encouraging TTing.

Now me and a few others have given numerous examples and reasons as to why the game would go downhill if the TT folks get the changes they want. You can ignore or acknoledge them.

I'm going to try and sum your arguments up here:

a) Multiple single-crewed tanks are more effective than the same number of players max-crewing tanks.

- I fully agree. And that's why I think Lone Tanking should be curbed. It detracts from the realism. (this also applies to the argument that fully crewed tanks have a huge advantage already: fact is, they don't.)

b) It would NOT be fun having to wait for crewmates before being allowed to operate the tank.

- That assumes that LT is disabled. I would still allow it, but only if there's an odd-man out on the server. As if, for example, all other tanks are crewed and long gone, but there is still one tank left for one guy, and there aren't any others to crew with him.

c) I shouldn't be forced to work with other players that may be less skilled / new to the game.

- I'm not sure if that's a fair assumption. Since this is a teamplay mod, it is inevitable that you will be faced with players lesser skilled than you. It's something that you need to get used to.
On a side note, if there is a lot more TTing in the game, these previously unskilled players will quickly learn how to properly work as a team in a tank, improving the experience for everyone involved.

d) Forcing TTing is wrong; people should be allowed to play as they like.

- Certainly it is wrong to force people in and out of a certain action, except when it is neccessary to facilitate a more realistic game. This also applies to the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" argument. Yes, it IS broke. People using tanks alone is more common than teaming up in tanks. That goes against the atmosphere and realistic aim of the mod.



And I have already addressed the concern over people leaving RO over something like this.

Everybody is entitled to their opinions and I respect that but what REALLY bothers me about threads such as this is the general dissrespect towards and stereotyping of Lone Tankers that I am seeing. This tends to bring out the Bias of the TT crowd with a neon sign.

I couldn't resist this one. Pot calling the kettle black, anyone? Come now, Gonzo, there is no great stereotype persisting about Lone Tankers by the oppressive Team Tanking crowd. Many of your posts have the tone of "us against them" or openly deride people for choosing the "sardine-canning" method.

Just because you and your dog Skip want to have five empty tanks rusting away at spawn for your choosing when you respawn, does not mean it will be so. For somebody who wants more "realism", how realistic would that be?

I'm not quite sure what you mean here... that I want more tanks at spawn? Quite the opposite: I want LESS. As I have stated several times I want to see tanks available depending SOLELY on the number of tankers on the team. One tank per 2 tankers, more spawning as more tankers spawn. Let me know if I need to explain this further, you may have misunderstood.

 

[Ron]

Im going to side with brad im afraid gonzox he has a better feeling for the spirit of the game then you do, myself i hate to say it but i lone tank on tank maps 8 times outa ten simply because at the moment 2 solo tankers are better than one fully crewed tank if there was some incentive to team up like a delay then i would team up 90% of the time its that simply, o and about not being able to find decent team tankers rubbish i say i once had a run where i teamed up with 3 different excellant tankers in the course of a game. I think they should introduce delays as a server option let the community test it then if gonzox predictions are correct those servers will lose popularity and other servers without the delay will gain, then again the opposite might happen.

 

[hos]

Brad,

You missed most of my points. First, I never said people won't get better. It is just as people get better, more nubs will come in, and the ratio won't change much. Further more some people don't play enough to get better and are more casual (nothing wrong with that).

I never said lone tankers were elite. Look at the title of this thread. It doesn't take a psychology degree to realize that this thread was started by a team tanker who thinks because he doesn't kick as when he TTs, something must be BS with the game. After all, it couldn't be his skills could it?

I'm sure lots would be. But what would happen if they were put in the situation where most of the time they would be paired up with another crewmate? Suddenly hate the game? I doubt it.

Being forced to jump in with noobs all the time while they charge towards the enemy never stopping to let me shoot till we meet our certain deaths is enough to make me quit 9or play inf only maps). Others will too.

You probably think I only solo because I think the game is fine the way it is. I do TT, and love to do it with some of my buddies. We kick ass against the soloers when we do. And I usually play on full servers so all tanks are being used anyway. There is rarely the choice between 6 solers or 2 fully crewed tanks as you guys seem to say is so prevelant.

According to you the absence of loaders and gunners does not detract from realism, but single tanking does. This is the whole crux of your argument, and it doesn't make sense. THIS is what I'm talking about with selective realism. If you pushed for having loaders and gunners I would resectfully disagree, but saying you just need two people for realism, but not a FULL crew is total bs.

 

[Brad]

You missed most of my points. First, I never said people won't get better. It is just as people get better, more nubs will come in, and the ratio won't change much.

No, I have in my last couple posts addressed your arguments. I have already dismissed the nub/vet ratio argument as silly. More people aren't going to join over time in order to match the number of skilled/semiskilled players out there.

I never said lone tankers were elite. Look at the title of this thread. It doesn't take a psychology degree to realize that this thread was started by a team tanker who thinks because he doesn't kick as when he TTs, something must be BS with the game. After all, it couldn't be his skills could it?

I believe this thread was started to bring attention to how many people are lone tanking right now, and how that should change, in the spirit of the game, and what to do about it. It has nothing to do with peoples' skills.

Being forced to jump in with noobs all the time while they charge towards the enemy never stopping to let me shoot till we meet our certain deaths is enough to make me quit 9or play inf only maps). Others will too.

Forced to play with 'noobs' all the time would suck. Good thing that there are less and less noobs all the time (regardless of your newbie/vet static ratio theory). Besides, if you would quit the game simply because you had to actually work with other people in the game, I would say you are the vast, VAST minority. And I think you're even exaggerating a bit. I seriously doubt you'd stop playing tank maps entirely; you're just saying you are to further your argument.

There is rarely the choice between 6 solers or 2 fully crewed tanks as you guys seem to say is so prevelant.

There is, a majority of the time, the option for lone tanking. Especially on maps like Arad (unless you join halfway through and everyone's already got a tank) where there are always 7-8 tanks at spawn regardless of how many people are in the server. Plus another half-dozen or so at the secondary spawn. So you'll see many lone tankers.

According to you the absence of loaders and gunners does not detract from realism, but single tanking does. This is the whole crux of your argument, and it doesn't make sense. THIS is what I'm talking about with selective realism. If you pushed for having loaders and gunners I would resectfully disagree, but saying you just need two people for realism, but not a FULL crew is total bs.

You are completely missing my argument. Enforcing TTing allows all players to experience the feeling of working with a crew. You're right, only having 3 slots open in a tank is not quite realistic, but it's just pointless to have a loader's position. Stop trying to pin me down as being hypocritical or something. I want crewed tanks because I want people to experience that aspect of teamplay in RO on a regular basis.

 

[GonzoX]

Brad, it seems you are having a hard time understanding what I and hos are trying to tell you.

Let me be very clear about this: MOST of us are lone tankers and we DO NOT want the game changed. If we were to put it to a vote in ROOSTs news display our arguments would win hands down because MOST of us are LTs and we enjoy the game like it is now. That is why we paid for it. To enjoy it.

You want the majority of ROOST players to "learning to deal with the change in gameplay"?? That sounds like an order on your part. Im glad you are not a developer.

You say that LTing "detracts from the realism". Would you prefer 100% realism at the cost of killing this game? Would you prefer to play a realistic game against unrealistic idiot bots? I certainly don't. But if you get what you want, there is a good chance that this is what you will wind up with.

BTW. This is not a Mod, it is a full fleged game now. This makes me wonder if you are playing RO instead of ROOST in which case you would be barking up the wrong tree to begin with.

You keep claiming that the game is broke and that realism should be the order of the day. Yet when hos takes it to the extreme realistic scenario where it would take 5 crew members to man a tank you nit pick what YOU think is realistic enough for you. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Most of us think the game is fine as is. It is ballanced quite nicely to make everybody happy.

And yes there is a nasty stereotyping biased towards LTs. If you read the three TT threads at this forum you will constantly see the words "selfish" "jerk", "10 year old" etc. And one poster even used the "A" word before he edited it to something less offensive. The "Hitler with watermellon" Sig comes to mind.

As I have said before. Most LTs are good people and they do not deserve this animosity. The TT crowd seems to think that they have exclusive rights to use the world "selfish". Some of us can easily turn this around and call you "selfish" for wanting the developers to change the game to your particular preferred gamplay while punishing the majority of players. So who is really selfish here?

 

[Ron]

Brad, it seems you are having a hard time understanding what I and hos are trying to tell you.

Let me be very clear about this: MOST of us are lone tankers and we DO NOT want the game changed. If we were to put it to a vote in ROOSTs news display our arguments would win hands down because MOST of us are LTs and we enjoy the game like it is now. That is why we paid for it. To enjoy it.

You want the majority of ROOST players to "learning to deal with the change in gameplay"?? That sounds like an order on your part. Im glad you are not a developer.

You say that LTing "detracts from the realism". Would you prefer 100% realism at the cost of killing this game? Would you prefer to play a realistic game against unrealistic idiot bots? I certainly don't. But if you get what you want, there is a good chance that this is what you will wind up with.

BTW. This is not a Mod, it is a full fleged game now. This makes me wonder if you are playing RO instead of ROOST in which case you would be barking up the wrong tree to begin with.

You keep claiming that the game is broke and that realism should be the order of the day. Yet when hos takes it to the extreme realistic scenario where it would take 5 crew members to man a tank you nit pick what YOU think is realistic enough for you. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Most of us think the game is fine as is. It is ballanced quite nicely to make everybody happy.

And yes there is a nasty stereotyping biased towards LTs. If you read the three TT threads at this forum you will constantly see the words "selfish" "jerk", "10 year old" etc. And one poster even used the "A" word before he edited it to something less offensive. The "Hitler with watermellon" Sig comes to mind.

As I have said before. Most LTs are good people and they do not deserve this animosity. The TT crowd seems to think that they have exclusive rights to use the world "selfish". Some of us can easily turn this around and call you "selfish" for wanting the developers to change the game to your particular preferred gamplay while punishing the majority of players. So who is really selfish here?

\

hmm you havent looked at the poll on the general section well it seems the battle between the lone tankers and team tankers has started and it seems lone tankers are losing badly.

 

[Murphy]

http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7340
Doesn

 

[GonzoX]

\

hmm you havent looked at the poll on the general section well it seems the battle between the lone tankers and team tankers has started and it seems lone tankers are losing badly.

\

FWIW I have added two more polls in the general forum to counter the rather biased one that was posted earlier.

ALL LTers need to speak their voice.

 

[GonzoX]

http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7340
Doesn