Change the bullpup to MG for commando?

[C_Gibby]

I've read and been here for quite long time and I did read why they'd never work. I don't support the weapon still. Why? Because the weapon adds no fun to KF, nothing just a weapon I am not fan of. It's just personal, so no need to discuss it. I am not for it and that's it. I don't like Bren, read about it on many sites and on your thread, nothing really I'd like to see in KF. I'd say it's nothing original, nothing with nice looks, and nothing what'd add something to gameplay. But from the other hand, I dislike commandos as their firepower is nothing compared to supports and support is alot better in killing both trash zeds AND big guys.

There is so much to pick on here, I don't even know where to begin.

 

[Undedd Jester]

There is so much to pick on here, I don't even know where to begin.

I do

Nah, Bren is just... nah
I mean, I rather weapons such as M1A1 or gatling gun Of course personal taste/opinion

You've missed the point of the thread completely. It wasn't so much about the Bren Gun perce', although I rather like that gun myself. It was more the discussion of how a MG like weapon could work within the game.

THE single most important factor of any weapon to be added to the game is balance. Not gun porn, not realism, not fanboy appeal, not LoLishness, Balance. I'll put this is a spoiler because its a pretty big post.

Spoiler!

Any weapon suggestion for KF needs to have:-

a) A unique reason for being in the game. Does this weapons projected role encrouch onto another weapons current use? If this weapon adds no new strategic value to a players loadout then there is no point in adding it.

Spoiler!

e.g. When the AA-12 was added for the Support Specialist it was a high damage output weapon, with a fast reload. It was the sum of the best parts of the Hunting Shotgun and the Pumpy. The drawback was it was heavy, expensive, with a limited supply of ammo. This left little room or money available to fill up the rest of your loadout.

It brought something new to the table for the Support. He could cut through a mob in seconds, but doing so had its own drawbacks as well as rewards.

b) A believable set of attributes for that weapon. Weight, recoil, mag/clip size, reload speed, damage, fire rate, etc. Are these attributes believable to how the player would percieve the use of this weapon?

Spoiler!

e.g. The M4 was added as an alternative to the Ak. Although it is very similar in its actual use, it has a better sight attachment at the expense of damage. The stereotypical opinion of the AK and the M4 is they are very similar weapons, but AK deals higher damage, whereas the M4 is more accurate.

Strategywise it does have larger clip than the Scar. This means a Commando can either go for damage with more need to reload, or go for a much more spammy loadout and use the Ak/M4 to constantly unload on the hoard.

c) Continuing from b), how would these attributes affect gameplay not only for its intended perk, but also for off perk gameplay as well? If this weapon does not fill the role intended for that perk, or it makes life alot easier for a different perk then it is fundamentally flawed.

Spoiler!

When the Katana was added it made the Berserker much less reliant on the rest of the team, he was now able to easily hack his way through most of the standard hoard. It was however also of good use to the Medic, who could run faster, withstand more damage and heal better than the Zerker could (at the time). It was a weapon that served the Medic better than it did the Berserker. Sure the Zerker got more damage, but the Katana was still formidibale even without a damage boost.

For this reason the Katana went through numerous nerfs until the setup we have today. The point is a Perk should be the best perkl at using its weapon, and its not as easy as you would think to make a weapon good for its intended perk, but not so good for others.

d) The most important of all. How does this weapon affect team gameplay? Are there sufficient benefits and drawbacks to ensure that the game becomes neither too difficult nor too easy for both the player and his team.

This one I won't spoiler, because it is a major example. The Xbow for the Sharpie when it was at its hayday ruined the game. It was too easy for the Sharpie to kill everything of the board in 1 hit, clearing up any mistakes or awkward spawns with ease. It ruined the teamwork of the game because the Sharpie could just do it solo while everyone else stared at the wall. (Incidently this is why I have such beef with the Zerker).

TL;DR
Now in the case of your Gattling Gun or M1A1, the bullets are big, the mags are huge, the stockpile of ammuntion is high, the fire rate is fast, the accuracy and recoil are actually very respectable and its potential use to the big 3 perks (SS, Sharpie and Mando) is staggering. Its essentially a mobile turret, a weapon that allows you to hole up in a room and mow down everything in front of you with ease. Its what an LMG is designed to do, bunker in a rip incoming forces to ribbons. This kills any kind of enjoyment the rest of your team could have while you are playing it.

The reason Gibbys Bren Gun suggestion got so much support was it was more provoking the idea of "How" an LMG type weapon could be introduced, and looked at the kind of balancing factors that could be put in place to reign in this massive amount of power at the players disposal. After debating in it myself for a while I consider the proposed drawbacks are adequet for keeping the Bren Gun on a level playing field. However a few of these balancing factors are based on how a Bren Gun works, and can't just be copy pasta'd to any LMG suggestion.

Unless you can think of equivelant balancing features for your weapn suggestions, then it just isn't gonna win any kind of backing from the community.

 

[Utopia-Phoenix]

Well, I found something seriously wrong. Someone say "MG, tear them like "Kick ***", that's boring."

OK. First question: What is a MG in KF? MG is an auto weapon with a really BIG magazine. Tear power? Walking speed? No, that's just your inertial thinkings of a MG.

Bren LMG. What's its way of existence? Bren is a LMG with 30-rds mags. That's the same as AK. NO big mag. And what can you do to balance it into a new gun without going too near to AK? Or SCAR? A big gun which deals really good damage? NO!

That's not a kind of balancing. It's going stupid.

MG of 5.56 cal is just OK for a single soldier. Note that those assault rifles do have 7.62 cal( AK=7.62*39, SCAR=7.62*51.), the MG's single shot damage should be LOWER than assault rifles.
(If you can handle F/A on 7.62, why not 5.56?)

Really big mag. I mentioned this one and that's it.
Rof can be higher or lower. Never mind. Just balance the DPS it produces.

This one can NEVER tear those zeds as someone imagined "One man heavy trooper". No. Nowaday assault rifles do own stronger DPH than that MG, and yet no one cries for "AR overpowered". MG. It shines on continuity and sucks in peak damage.

Doing the same damage, an AR may use 25/25 bullets, a MG may use 40/100 bullets. Time to shoot 40 MG bullets is definitely LONGER than 25 AR bullets. However, ARs need to reload after such a burst. MG can just go aim down more enemies. Unbalanced? Boring? No. If they are going too much, MG will suck before AR due to its inability to burst peak damage!

 

[ro_sauce]

here, you can do this yourself:

in game, bring down console;
type:

set bullpup magcapacity 100
set bullpupammo maxammo 600

now the bullpup has a 100rnd mag with 5 more.

see?

you do know twi isnt going to add mg's just because you are rude, did you know that?

maybe you should put that big engineering brain of yours to use and learn how to make it yourself.

 

[Utopia-Phoenix]

see?

you do know twi isnt going to add mg's just because you are rude, did you know that?

maybe you should put that big engineering brain of yours to use and learn how to make it yourself.

I am not majored in computer engineering.

Rude? How? I don't ever mention assaulting anyone.

 

[BenioX]

Rude? How? I don't ever mention assaulting anyone.

Nor did I this time, your arguments were this time very good, and I do agree 100% with them. Plus I got offended, I said I have personal opinion which keeps me away from liking the Bren gun. And about mowing down zeds, I'd say Demo and support do it so well that noone can beat it

 

[ro_sauce]

I am not majored in computer engineering.

Rude? How? I don't ever mention assaulting anyone.

you dont need a major in computer engineering, you just need to open yourself up to the possibilities or being able to learn more things.

i learned how to model, texture, map, and code, and yet i have no degrees, i'm just a construction worker.

 

[C_Gibby]

A big gun which deals really good damage? NO!

The Bren LMG has the SLOWEST fire rate out of all the mando weapons, as well as walking speed when "deployed". It also cannot aim, and there is the second it takes to "deploy" the LMG, and also the sluggish reload. While its recoil is low and its power is high, while it can mash the crap out of a trashcrowd, it absolutely cannot handle a FP or Scrake because:

• It can't shoot fast enough. Before you've even dealt enough half of the damage to kill the FP, one of his fists have already been forced inside your rectum.
• If you're in a pinch, you will not be able to move quick enough to get away to safety. It's not impossible to do, but it certainly isn't easy.
• The weight of the weapon doesn't permit the usage of a secondary assault rifle and the user will have to resort to a melee weapon or pistol. The user trades his AK-47 offensive ninja skills with defensive partially-stationary crowd busting skills. It covers the same role but in a whole new way opening up a new range of strategies.

 

[Undedd Jester]

Well, I found something seriously wrong. Someone say "MG, tear them like "Kick ***", that's boring."

OK. First question: What is a MG in KF? MG is an auto weapon with a really BIG magazine. Tear power? Walking speed? No, that's just your inertial thinkings of a MG.

Well the definition of a LMG is pretty broad, what we would call Assault Rifles, such as the Steyr AUG are actually defined as LMG's. As a gamer when I say LMG, I actually mean ones that can also be deployed as a Medium Machine Gun. These are typically belt fed (although not a requirement), bipod/tripod mounted weapons used for sustained fire.

So which LMG are you talking about? As I look across the typical LMG's suggested, such as the M60, M249, Mk48, etc they all use 5.56x45mm or 7.62x51mm rounds. This means that although the bullet is the same size as the assault rifle rounds, the casing is longer and therefore packed with more powder. This means that the muzzle velocity of the bullet is a good 100m/s faster than an assault rifle.

The SCAR-L can fire both of these rounds, so that means these weapons would have at least the same damage per bullet as the SCAR would. Also the ROF for these LMG's is pretty comparable to the ROF of the assault rifles, if anything they generally have a higher ROF.

So there you are, you have a SCAR with a huge clip, low recoil, excellent accuracy, and a good rate of fire. Remind me how that wouldn't be overpowered again?

Gibbys Bren Gun suggestion, as he has stated above, took these factors into consideration and came up with an acceptable list of drawbacks to counter what would otherwise be a weapon that rapes everything. It has these powerful bullets sure, but its rate of fire is slower and is awkward to use for 1 man.

Oh and FYI the Bren gun can support a 20 round L1A1 SLR magazine, a 30-round detachable box magazine, and a 100-round detachable pan magazine. I'm sure I read there was a 50 round mag available somewhere, but I can't remember where I found it.

 

[AlphaBoy]

you dont need a major in computer engineering, you just need to open yourself up to the possibilities or being able to learn more things.

I learned how to model, texture, map, and code, and yet i have no degrees, i'm just a construction worker.

+1

 

[BenioX]

+1

+2* :d

 

[CandleJack]

Well the definition of a LMG is pretty broad, what we would call Assault Rifles, such as the Steyr AUG are actually defined as LMG's. As a gamer when I say LMG, I actually mean ones that can also be deployed as a Medium Machine Gun. These are typically belt fed (although not a requirement), bipod/tripod mounted weapons used for sustained fire.

So which LMG are you talking about? As I look across the typical LMG's suggested, such as the M60, M249, Mk48, etc they all use 5.56x45mm or 7.62x51mm rounds. This means that although the bullet is the same size as the assault rifle rounds, the casing is longer and therefore packed with more powder. This means that the muzzle velocity of the bullet is a good 100m/s faster than an assault rifle.

The SCAR-L can fire both of these rounds, so that means these weapons would have at least the same damage per bullet as the SCAR would. Also the ROF for these LMG's is pretty comparable to the ROF of the assault rifles, if anything they generally have a higher ROF.

So there you are, you have a SCAR with a huge clip, low recoil, excellent accuracy, and a good rate of fire. Remind me how that wouldn't be overpowered again?

Gibbys Bren Gun suggestion, as he has stated above, took these factors into consideration and came up with an acceptable list of drawbacks to counter what would otherwise be a weapon that rapes everything. It has these powerful bullets sure, but its rate of fire is slower and is awkward to use for 1 man.

Oh and FYI the Bren gun can support a 20 round L1A1 SLR magazine, a 30-round detachable box magazine, and a 100-round detachable pan magazine. I'm sure I read there was a 50 round mag available somewhere, but I can't remember where I found it.

From good old wikipedia:

Feed system
20 round L1A1 SLR magazine
30-round detachable box magazine
100-round detachable pan magazine

From what my limited google-fu can give me it seems the pan mag was more for AA.

 

[C_Gibby]

I guess the brenniebren could have 50 rounds base anyway. It's not too ridiculous a mag size. I don't remember the pup holding 50 IRL or the AK/M4s holding 37.

We should be discussing this in the bren thread tbh.

 

[BenioX]

We should be discussing this in the bren thread tbh.

Nice way to attract people to necro your old idea
+1 though

 

[Undedd Jester]

From good old wikipedia

From what my limited google-fu can give me it seems the pan mag was more for AA.

Aye, that is correct, sadly some of us don't have an encyclopeadic knowledge of guns on hand

I imagine the pan mag was used primarily for anti air sinmply because it is probably just inefficient to carry pan mags when taking on regular infantry. They are pretty bulky

 

[BenioX]

I imagine the pan mag was used primarily for anti air sinmply because it is probably just inefficient to carry pan mags when taking on regular infantry. They are pretty bulky

Woah he's a weapon expert here

 

[ro_sauce]

pan mags are pretty huge.
the 47 round pan mag for the dp28 is big enough, and weird to carry around.

hey would anyone be interested in buying 2 bren mags? one is for a Mk II, i dont know what the other is for cause it's in my garage somewhere.
one of them is a bit dismantled though, but i think i still have the parts somewhere around here.

 

[C_Gibby]

pan mags are pretty huge.
the 47 round pan mag for the dp28 is big enough, and weird to carry around.

hey would anyone be interested in buying 2 bren mags? one is for a Mk II, i dont know what the other is for cause it's in my garage somewhere.
one of them is a bit dismantled though, but i think i still have the parts somewhere around here.

I would be VERY interested in buying one from you!

 

[ro_sauce]

where are you located (so i can figure out s&h)
keep in mind i cant send the ammo, but i'm sure you can find 303 brit wherever you are.

 

[C_Gibby]

where are you located (so i can figure out s&h)
keep in mind i cant send the ammo, but i'm sure you can find 303 brit wherever you are.

Well I'm in the UK (west midlands) so yeah, I'll be able to get spammo for it. I won't have a real Bren to use it with, though.

How much would you charge me for it/them? o: