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Bioshock

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#221
Dillinger said:
Obviously you've never read a Choose Your Own Adventure book! ;)
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If you are a talking about me you should read more carefully, otherwise forget that post:

mat69 said:
[...]
Think about it that way, the reader in a book (normally)[added emphasis] does not have the influence to change something, but at least in the imagination I get the feeling that the character does have that opportunity.
[...]
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I don't understand why they also crippled the steam version as it seems. I mean steam is a wet dream for publishers allready and still offers something for the legal audience, why spoil that to some degree?
 
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#227
Grobut said:
OK, all you guys saying "you cant judge by the demo, the full game is so much more awesome!", could you please go into detail? you must have the game since you can say that (well i should hope, or you are just spreading hype and hearsay, and wasting our time..), so enlighten us, tell us more about it!
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Well, the answer is quite simple (though Ill make it as long as I can cos Im at work and Im bored :p):
This is not a game, its a piece of art. And by art I dont mean to say its perfect or beautiful beyond compare or, as we too often casualy say, a masterpiece, I mean art in the full sense of the word- this game has something to say about the world, about our culture- it has a theme, a philosophy if you like, and it wants to make you think,- not merely about how to overcome your foes and obstacles ingame ,although it does that too and quite well,- but to think like any good and profound novel or movie would make you do.

The demo is only an intro to its world and if I would judge every book by its beggining I would miss a hell of a lot of good books (Take a look at LOTR's first 3-4 loooong chapters, all about party arrangements and auctions and an endless parade of names and petty affairs- if I didnt like The Hobbit so much I would have given up there and then and Im very glad I didnt).
The fact they chose to give you the intro as the demo just shows these ppl have souls and care about their product- letting you in in the middle of the story would have been really lame.

And since its a work of art, a manifest if you like, you cant go around and shout (not you specificaly, Grobut) "oh, everything looks plastic and you fight with toy guns human-sized dolls, its sooo unrealistic and lame!" cos than you missed the point entirely-
This game doesnt want to be realstic or convince you that you are really there, doing all those things... Im not even sure it wants to scare you. It wants to say what it has to say, it want to make you think and even to take a stand or re-evaluate your moral values (yes, its that pretencious), and to do that it uses every mean it has,- the style it deploys has a reason, the doll-like figures are made that way for a reason.

I was meh'ing on the demo like most here, I still went and got the full game and got hooked preaty fast, I even remember the exact moment my attitude turned 180 (*MINOR SPOILERS AHEAD*) - In the second level you are searching for a certain Dr. Steinman and as you go you learn about him bit by bit. Turns out this "posh kind of geezer" has turned screwy, but he's not your regular mad scientist cliche, this one is demented by the ideals of perfection and symmetry. All around him is collapsing but he's busy writing slogans on the floor with the blood of the corpses whom features he is still trying to carve to beauty divine with his scalpel. Opening a door and seeing a slogan such as "Aesthetics are a moral imperative" written in blood a la slasher films is mesmerising.... just show me another game that its first "boss" regards being ugly, or even just plain,- as a sin.
(*Spoilers ends*)
This got me intrigued, from that moment I knew I had to see the end of it, to learn as much as I can about the dynamics that have led a society of gifted individuals to its present decadant state. How the strive for outer and self-perfection can turn humans into monsters.

And it is not just a "tossing of Ayan Rand mixed with Art-deco" to make a cool imitation of post ww2 dystopian SF warnings such as 1984. No,it has much to say about our present day times. Just look at that appalling TV show Extreme makeover, where they take ordinary and real, albeit flawed, ppl and turn them into barbie and ken dolls. At the end of the show they reveal their new looks to their friends and relatives and smile those face-lifted smiles, showing perfect white teeth and everyone is cheering. Watch it, vomit and weep.
Nowaday we say "a crime fashion" with a wink, is it so far fetched to imagine a future where dressing in poor taste will truly be a crime?- youll be endited for an "insult to the glory and splendour of mankind". We are being brain washed and educated to feel worthless by our imperfactions and we are obsessed with self-improvement and self-fullfilment individualistic ideals- dunno, I guess it will be good for the economy when genetic modifiactions would be available for anyone,.. as long as they have the dough, that is.

As you can see- this game makes you reflect upon some heavy-duty subjects and even if its gameplay was totaly weak I would still have to "read" it to the very end.
But you know what? The gameplay is not weak, its awesome!: AI is more than decent, youll have to think and plan ahead, there are ways to get rid of your foes and there are better ways and yet even better ways to dispose of them, the hacking game is addictive.... Im having a good time- noo complaints here.

Comparing this game to the Godfather (I know, I know- no one did ;)) is pefectly legit- these are two works of art, the only differance being that one is cannonized and the other is yet to be. (Ill have to admit I have yet to finish Bioshock but if things will keep at the level they are- Im standing by this statement)

I dont get it, finally here's a game that treats you like adults... even better- adults with brains, and you start bashing it for not giving you the perfect illusion that you are there, or not revolutionizing gameplay mechanics.... It does so much more than that- as Bob Dylan turned the "low" and scorned-by-lits folk/ rock music to an art that can deal with the biggest subjects there can be, so does Bioshock do to the fps genre. Im not surprised that critics gave it hordes of 10s, they are elitists by nature.
If you prefer to get the heavy stuff only from books and like your shooters pulpy as Crysis, HL or Far Cry thats fine, but I would expect gamers to be tolerant, even proud, with the direction which Bioshock is pointing to... dont you know?- The 20th century's art-form was the cinema, video games will be the art form of the 21th. I would think that gamers would be the last to patronise games and class limit them as entertainment,.. an escapistic pass-time and nothing more.

And damn straight it takes itself seriously! But it does not lack humor. What's not to like?

I said what I wanted. You will not punish anyone but yourselves by not getting this game. If you do decide to get it- welcome to the circus of value.:D

EDIT: Minor grammer mistakes- Ive left the big ones for you... hmm, did I mention Im at work right now?..
 
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#231
No DRM in the future...
http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/48641

Continuing this morning's progress towards resolving Aspect Ratiogate 07 and DRMgate 07, BioShock creative director Ken Levine has informed Joystiq that the game's oft-criticized SecuROM copyright protection will eventually be removed.

"At some point we'll move back from online activation," Levine stated. "If people want to play BioShock ten years from now, they'll be able to play it." Based on his wording, it's presumed that SecuROM activation will be disabled when retail sales of the game are no longer a pressing factor.
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Original source - http://www.joystiq.com/2007/08/24/joystiq-interviews-bioshocks-ken-levine-about-success-and-harve/
 
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#232
Jokerman,

Oh come on man!

This does not treat us like adults any more than any number of adventure games in the past.

I actually am just getting through the Steinman thing, and yes, my attitude toward this game is starting to change from "it's crap" to "it's pretty good". But so far gameplay wise, no, this is not the greatest game ever made. Not even close. We don't judge a game simply on the story. In fact a "game" must have good GAMEplay. This is why we play games, not to be indoctrinated by some philosophy phd wannabee but to experience an alternate reality for a brief period of time. As an alternate reality this game (so far as I've experienced) has a very far way to go.

What Bioshock is trying to do in the atmosphere dept. Doom did much better back in 1995. Much much better. Thousands of times better.
 
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#233
Soviet said:
Jokerman,

Oh come on man!

This does not treat us like adults any more than any number of adventure games in the past.

I actually am just getting through the Steinman thing, and yes, my attitude toward this game is starting to change from "it's crap" to "it's pretty good". But so far gameplay wise, no, this is not the greatest game ever made. Not even close. We don't judge a game simply on the story. In fact a "game" must have good GAMEplay. This is why we play games, not to be indoctrinated by some philosophy phd wannabee but to experience an alternate reality for a brief period of time. As an alternate reality this game (so far as I've experienced) has a very far way to go.

What Bioshock is trying to do in the atmosphere dept. Doom did much better back in 1995. Much much better. Thousands of times better.
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First of all- why do you say "we"? "we" can only speak for ourselves, one at a time that is. ;)
You want a few hours to escape reality, another will want intellectual stimulous even from his games. Bioshock is only one direction in which game will evolve, there will be games for women, university professors, history buffs... you name it- and dont you worry youll still get pulp fiction games, trashy horrors or just plain good stories to be told.

Bioshock wasnt done to indoctrinate you, just to raise a few questions and make you think and it wasnt done by phd wannabes but by some very well read ppl.

There were great adventure games before it: CoC- brilliant adapatation of one of the horror genre fathers, Deus ex- an excellent piece of cyber punk and many more- but I have still to recall a game that got me thinking like this one and I, for one, find it a refreshing change.

I told you my opinion about Bioshock's gameplay but I know its debatable and am willing to argue- where I find you completley off is your standard of judging a game only by its gameplay- I find it conservative and I find it to be crippling to the true potential ideal of video games, they will evolve till one day they will be much more than games.

Sorry, I have to sleep now- see you later.
 
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#234
What Bioshock is trying to do in the atmosphere dept. Doom did much better back in 1995. Much much better. Thousands of times better.
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While I haven't played Bioshock, I find that statement very hard to believe. Doom was a revolution in gaming, but it wasn't atmospheric in the slightest. I was only in high school when it came out and even then we only regarded it as a "cool" game where you got to blow the crap out of hordes of demons. It wasn't scary in the slightest and the "atmosphere" of something so pixelated is really debateable. In fact, it wasn't until Doom 3 that I discovered that Doom was supposed to have been a scary, in-the-dark experience. I actually thought people were joking to begin with when I first heard that.

Sorry, but I suspect Bioshock does a much better job than Doom.
 
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#235
Jokerman said:
Well, the answer is quite simple (though Ill make it as long as I can cos Im at work and Im bored :p):
This is not a game, its a piece of art. And by art I dont mean.. (too much to quote).
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Ok then, thank you.

So the whole selling point here is the story, thats good, i like a good story and will even engage in the odd point-and-click adventure game if i hear good things about it (such as "The longest Journey" and "Dreamfall", thouse where excellent games!), but it does raise a red flag aswell, namely that its likely that i will feel the combat is just a tacked on afterthought.. a bit like the Tombraider games, the cool thing about them where exploring and solving the puzzles, but whatever the reason, they also tacked on thouse dreadfull "evil animals" and that was just a waste of time as the controls where so rubbish.

So really, thats my question to you lads who have the game (im still hoping the Steam release will turn out okay despite this Securom rubbish), and have played it a bit, atleast a bit past the demo levels, how do you view the combat? is it a good addition to the story and game in general? or do you find yourself thinking "ohh brother.. well might aswell get it overwith so i can get back to the story" when a baddie shows up? and be honest or i'll rat you out to Santa! all coal for you!
 
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#236
Guys, I don't know what you are expecting from this in terms of gameplay, it's an FPS and plays just like any other. It's not innovating but it's not garbage. The only frustrating aspect of the gameplay is that I find myself running out of ammo often, but that can be considered a good thing since you are forced to look around and such.

As for the Doom statement, that's absurd. Bioshock is the one of the most atmospheric games I've ever played, if not the most.
 
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#237
Grobut said:
So really, thats my question to you lads who have the game (im still hoping the Steam release will turn out okay despite this Securom rubbish), and have played it a bit, atleast a bit past the demo levels, how do you view the combat? is it a good addition to the story and game in general? or do you find yourself thinking "ohh brother.. well might aswell get it overwith so i can get back to the story" when a baddie shows up?
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Honestly, the combat isn't that great. Don't get me wrong, the combat is still fun and I enjoy it, but it isn't as good as the combat in Half Life 2 or other pure FPSs. In Half Life 2 the guns had a feel to them, they felt right. In BioShock I've shot with the pistol, shotgun, and tommy gun, and none of them are really a big joy to shoot. The pistol feels too stiff, the tommy gun doesn't really have recoil, and the shotgun is just a regular shotgun. However, I haven't upgraded any of my weapons yet, and I've only used 2 types of special ammo (theres dozens). For instance the armor piercing pistol and electric buckshot ammo types are excellent against turrets, security bots, and cameras.

Now the guns might not feel that great, but I really like the plasmids. They do bring a new level to the combat. The plasmids feel right too, they hit your enemy almost instantly and they have a pretty wide "area of effect cone" where if something is in your target reticle it will get hit. The game has none of those Oblivion style slow traveling spells that go 5 mph. However if you've played Oblivion before you'll have a pretty good idea of the plasmid effects, except the plasmids have a sort of "secondary effect" where they do something else in addition to causing damage. For instance, instead of just giving "shock damage" the Electrobolt plasmid will actually stun enemies, and instead of just giving "fire damage" the Incinerate plasmid will actually light people on fire.

The AI also makes the combat pretty fun. The grenade throwing splicer will actually bounce his grenades around corners, and throw his grenades over walls so they land right on top of you. The splicers with guns kind of use cover, and they'll always be sidestepping so that they won't be a still target. Whenever I'm in a pistol fight with a pistol wielding splicer, I always get the feel that I'm in a Wild West shootout by the way they shoot. The splicers also try to heal themselves when hurt.

The Big Daddy AI, though, is in a category by itself. That guy knows his stuff, and if you don't find them to be a significant challenge then you're crazy. The name of the game with a Big Daddy is keep moving, because if you stand in one spot for just a second he'll have u plastered to the ground. So far each Big Daddy I've faced (2) has had a lot of different attacks, each with its own unique effect. They'll bull rush you if you present them the opportunity, and if you get cornered they'll put that drill to good use.

So as other people have said, this game really isn't all about just shooting guns like how other FPSs are, but multiple factors go into how the gameplay works.
 
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#239
Xendance said:
Define "pure fps".

" In Half Life 2 the guns had a feel to them, they felt right." Most of 'em felt like **** if you ask me.

Anyway, I just bought the game and I'm about to install it.
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Exactly. HL2's weapons felt powerless, and for some reason the accuracy felt the same for all ranges, be it close or far away. Cant put my finger on it, but its weird.
 
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#240
Xendance said:
Define "pure fps".

" In Half Life 2 the guns had a feel to them, they felt right." Most of 'em felt like **** if you ask me.
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I'd say a pure FPS is where you have guns and you shoot stuff, nothing else. In BioShock you do much much more than just shoot things. About the guns in Half Life 2, I really liked them myself so to each his own I guess.
 
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